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Xbox 3 - Durango Devkit Spotted in the Wild

reallyscrued

Platinum Member
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-curious-case-of-the-durango-devkit-leak

DaE reckons that the current devkits were dispatched to studios in February, and feature Intel CPUs and a graphics card that carries the NVIDIA brand - but he doesn't identify either part more specifically. He also claims that the Durango kit features more than 8GB of memory (other sources have suggested 12GB), and that it is 64-bit in nature - at this point it's worth bearing in mind that dev hardware typically features double the RAM of retail kit in order to accommodate debugging tools and other systems. DaE also says that Microsoft is targeting an eight-core CPU for the final retail hardware - if true, this must surely be based around Atom architecture to fit inside the thermal envelope. The hardware configuration seems difficult to believe as it is so divorced from the technological make-up of the current Xbox 360, and we could find no corroborative sources to establish the Intel/NVIDIA hook-up, let alone the eight-core CPU.

These specs make me giddy. Wii-U is pretty much on par with current consoles but bumps rendering to 1080p and rumor has it that the PS4 won't be a powerhouse.

Next gen would be the first console generation where I happen to buy what I perceive to be the most powerful (Sorry Ninty) and if these specs hold up, it will be an absolute buy for me.

Not sure what to make of that 8-core Atom though.
 
8 core atom? If this is true.... uhhhhh D:

I can't imagine an 8core atom pushing any of today's games very well, most which are moderately demanding for 4core games.

If true, maybe they are looking to force devs to code in a way to take advantage of all 8 cores which can impede a faster path to porting.

Four cores I could understand, but 8 cores (atom no less, I still doubt the improved version of the 8 core atom will run BF3 flawlessly) seems 😱
 
After some digging, I'm not too disappointed about the 8 core Atom.

According to Passmark, the D2700 (Dual Core Atom at 2.13 Ghz) scores roughly the same as a Core 2 Duo at 1.5 Ghz.

It even runs fairly new games as of now, only with 2 cores.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrMbFxiCDXI

If they heavily thread games, an 8 core Atom would be a great way to keep thermals down and increase the complexity of games at the same time. Not to mention, desktops will finally be able to use 8 cores and put it to use for gaming when the ports come through (which they will).


Microsoft seems to like the number 8.

Windows 8.
Gigs of RAM: 8
Number of cores: 8

Xbox...8?
 
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The only bad thing with so many cores is that it's more difficult to program for than something with less cores. Hopefully Microsoft keeps the trend of ease of programming which definitely helped it in the early years of the 360.
 
The "Atom" cpu is simply speculation based on nothing. His logic is that 8 core Ivy Bridge would be too hot for a console, therefore is must be an 8 core Atom. Follow that logic if you like - I will not.
 
Atom or not I am sure MS and Intel will release something that is powerful enough to push gaming into the next gen and beyond. It would be stupid for them NOT to so I dont care if its a 50 core celeron, I am sure its is going to be awesome. Same for whatever sony is cooking up.
 
The only bad thing with so many cores is that it's more difficult to program for than something with less cores. Hopefully Microsoft keeps the trend of ease of programming which definitely helped it in the early years of the 360.

I agree with this, but with the games being so focused around MP (BF/etc) the extra cores are very helpful.

Likely an 8-core cut-down Celeron or something similar. Atom could be OK, but it would be nice to have something a little more robust and similar to current CPU arch.
 
I could maybe see this if they were planning on using the (not yet released) 22nm Atoms to keep down temperatures or it's possible that they could use a dedicated Atom processor (or more than one) for extraneous tasks such as running the dashboard or handling background multimedia tasks (VOIP, etc.).

Although, simply hearing "nVidia GPU" doesn't mean much. I mean... the old GeForce FX is technically a nVidia GPU and I wouldn't ever want to see one of those again! D:
 
What about whatever AMD's Brazos successor is supposed to be? Brazos already smacks Atom around like a wussy bitch in terms of both processing power and efficiency. The next gen will only widen that gap. The only catch is that generally AMD's GPU is integrated into that CPU, so where does that put the nvidia GPU?
 
Everybody here has tunnel vision, 8 cores is generally too many for games alone, but these aren't meant to just be gaming machines, they're multimedia centers. Those extra cores can be DVR'ing a TV show in the background while a game is running. They can offload all dash and LIVE social features to their own threads for instant tabbing without having to exit the game first. If there's dual HDMI out one person can play a game while another streams Netflix to a secondary monitor. I doubt either console will feature an 8 core CPU, but more cores wouldn't hurt anything as long as efficient power gating is implemented.
 
Atom or not I am sure MS and Intel will release something that is powerful enough to push gaming into the next gen and beyond. It would be stupid for them NOT to so I dont care if its a 50 core celeron, I am sure its is going to be awesome. Same for whatever sony is cooking up.

I'm wondering if it even matters. Everyone is locked in at 1080p so how much of a jump could the next gen really be? 4K is still a good distance from us, and even when it does drop most people will not be able to afford it for the first year or 3.

So I guess what I am saying is do the new generation consoles really need to be big jumps or will they just be upgraded parts? I could see adding more RAM, better hard drives, and hopefully better cooling but would a complete rebuild be really all that beneficial or even necessary?
 
The only bad thing with so many cores is that it's more difficult to program for than something with less cores. Hopefully Microsoft keeps the trend of ease of programming which definitely helped it in the early years of the 360.

If this was the Sega Saturn era, I'd agree with you.

But seeing as how multi-threaded games are really taking off (I don't think anyone here would argue that no one in their right minds would suggest a dual core for gaming today), the 8 core Atom makes so much sense.

Seeing as how the latest dual core atom can handle a current gen game fairly well, and then taking findings like this into account:

http://www.techspot.com/review/458-battlefield-3-performance/page7.html

I'd say we don't need to worry about the rigors of programming logic like they did back in the 90s.


This is all inference on my part however; if anyone has any experience coding games or knowing the internals of how a game engine turns, please chime in. Is the 8 core a bad idea?
 
This thing should really have a solid quad, with perhaps a very low power SOC to run the basic interface, powering up the real GPU/CPU for actual gaming. I've seen plenty of set-top basic media boxes that are cheap, that can handle 1080p media fine, I like that compared to running a media PC, PS3, X360 for the same thing because it is just much more efficient.
 
The Xbox 360 CPU is very similar already to a 3 core Atom - in order, simultaneous multithreading, etc. It can run 6 threads already, so by now, devs are *very* well experienced with multithreading. The number of cores shouldnt be an issue.

With 8 cores, a clock speed bump, a modern process and instruction set (like AVX) - that could be a pretty huge leap, even if at face value it doesnt sound as powerful as ivy bridge. Its going to be capable of exactly what they need it to do, and nothing more. That kind of architecture worked out very well for them on the 360, and either way, the GPU is the far more important piece of the puzzle.
 
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An Intel Atom CPU and an NVIDIA GPU? I just don't buy it. While MS's PPC CPU has been good to them, it's not a big secret that the poor general purpose performance of the in-order processor has been making life difficult for them to add PC-like features late in the console's life.

I could see some Atom cores, ala Sony's Cell processor. But a CPU only consisting of Atom? I don't buy it.
 
This is all inference on my part however; if anyone has any experience coding games or knowing the internals of how a game engine turns, please chime in. Is the 8 core a bad idea?

Whether or not this specific rumor is true or not, I think it's safe to say that the people designing the hardware know whether or not it's a good idea. I'd trust their judgement. 🙂

They will have to ultimately decide how much silicon (and therefore $$$) is going in there, and I think they're going to need a huge leap to stay relevant, but we'll see how far they push it next year. I think the Unreal Engine 4 demos, and highest setting BF3/Crysis are good indications of what the first gen games for it will look like.

Don't get too caught up in resolution - you'll be able to see a huge difference even in 480p. These consoles are ancient - we're years overdue for an upgrade.
 
An Intel Atom CPU and an NVIDIA GPU? I just don't buy it. While MS's PPC CPU has been good to them, it's not a big secret that the poor general purpose performance of the in-order processor has been making life difficult for them to add PC-like features late in the console's life.

I could see some Atom cores, ala Sony's Cell processor. But a CPU only consisting of Atom? I don't buy it.

That huge document leak from a few weeks ago even put ARM on the table as a potential choice....isn't their newest architecture out of order?
 
The Xbox 360 CPU is very similar already to a 3 core Atom - in order, simultaneous multithreading, etc. It can run 6 threads already, so by now, devs are *very* well experienced with multithreading. The number of cores shouldnt be an issue.

With 8 cores, a clock speed bump, a modern process and instruction set (like AVX) - that could be a pretty huge leap, even if at face value it doesnt sound as powerful as ivy bridge. Its going to be capable of exactly what they need it to do, and nothing more. That kind of architecture worked out very well for them on the 360, and either way, the GPU is the far more important piece of the puzzle.

I agree. Lets throw down this scenario:

MS goes with Intel / Atom processors for a 2013 console against Sony's PS4. The PS4, which is rumoured to have 4 AMD cores (once thought to be Steamroller but now maybe Jaguar) will have AVX (2 128bit ala BD?) on 28nm. If MS went with Atom they could (a) hit 22nm and (b) Tri-gate on Intel's mature 22nm technology. This chip will be smaller-per-transistor than what AMD can offer but, likely, cost as much. The big advantage comes from TDP and frequency as well as Intel's progressive roadmap. When you look and (c) Out of Order Atom (OOOe), (d) HyperThreading (HT), and (e) AVX these Atom cores should be more robust than the current PPEs in Xenon/Cell and with AVX and 8 cores offer a large bump in peak theoretical performance. One advantage of using simpler cores is more budget can be shifted to memory heirarchies (cache) which with many-core setups is a performance killer.

While Atom cores may be a big step down, core to core, from a IVB, SB, and even Core Duo, what you lose in IPC you gain in TDP, size, and number and leaving more budget for cache. Having 8 SIMD units so developers can vectorize their code offers the potential for long term performance gains. Yes, a 4 core IVB is going to tear an 8 core current gen Atom to shreads but if each new Atom has the same AVX resources as a current IVB core there are situations where this theoretical Atom could offer big gains (a number of developers have noted this happens on consoles already with VMX/SPEs where games with a lot of code that can be vectorized and hit peak performance hang well... of course normal code sucks as they are far below 50% IPC in most code).

From Intel's perspective getting AVX in the consoles is a win and they can cut a deal on Atom chips as it doesn't harm higher end margins. In fact it may give Atom some strong inroads that could help Intel's Atom ecosystem. If Sony is going Jaguar and MS is looking at Jaguar cores or some Power variant it would be worth Intel's time to toss out Atom availability. It may suck up some volume that could be diverted to higher margin products but it also gives a lower end model some much needed wind in its proverbial sails without harming the higher margin product line.

From a gamer perspective Intel's higher end stuff is off limits--why would Intel take huge margin cuts? This makes no sense. In terms of Jaguar and Steamroller an OOOe Atom with AVX on 22nm Trigate could be competitive. On the IBM front Power7 is large/power hungry and 478, A2, etc may be lateral moves from Atom/Jaguar at best and ARM would be a big step back in IPC and tools like compilers.

It probably wouldn't hurt MS to know they have a firmer road map from 22nm to 16nm and probably 12nm whereas with TSMC 20nm may, or may not, roll out in 2014 and FINFET has shifted down to 16nm (if it ever comes) and that won't be until, what, 2017/2018 for first volume production at best? Sure, Intel would charge more per mm^2 but you can pack more into each mm^2 and the TDP/Performance advantages when TDP, and not so much chip size, are the bigger barriers makes it sound like an appealing option IF MS could get Intel on favorable terms.
 
Not to mention that shifting to x86 makes a lot of sense for porting games to their "other" platform (the PC).

Based on that leaked document from a few weeks ago, 6-8 core x86 was specifically mentioned - and the nextbox is likely to have multiple CPUs and GPUs (not just cores). There will potentially be a whole line of them, with variable capabilities (like BC), and even variable performance in games.
 
A lot of games today are GPU bound. They don't use a lot of CPU power.

In the case of the Atoms, the old Silverthrones got 2.1 GFLOPS per core. For an 8-core, works out to be 16.8 GFLOPS. Of course that's old. Now the comparable Brazos chips get 7.46 GFLOPS, so it would roughly be 29.84 GFLOPS at 1.6ghz for an 8-core. Since it's a newer chip, we'll go with that standard. Real world performance between Brazos and Atom are about the same so it renders Hyperthreading benefits moot.

So that would put this Atom at around Clarkdale i3s and Deneb Phenom II X4s. Since a console is an embedded system and software is designed around that fact, it's indeed doable. There's also the new variable of GPGPU via DirectCompute and CUDA. On the old model physics (PhysX, Havok) was handled by the CPU, but nVidia GPUs have PhysX built in. So that's one less thing for the CPU to do.

The obvious benefit with Atom is lower operating temperature and lower power consumption. The original Xbox 360 was brought to its knees by cooling issues. Something MS definitely doesn't want to repeat.
 
A lot of games today are GPU bound. They don't use a lot of CPU power.

In the case of the Atoms, the old Silverthrones got 2.1 GFLOPS per core. For an 8-core, works out to be 16.8 GFLOPS. Of course that's old. Now the comparable Brazos chips get 7.46 GFLOPS, so it would roughly be 29.84 GFLOPS at 1.6ghz for an 8-core. Since it's a newer chip, we'll go with that standard. Real world performance between Brazos and Atom are about the same so it renders Hyperthreading benefits moot.

So that would put this Atom at around Clarkdale i3s and Deneb Phenom II X4s. Since a console is an embedded system and software is designed around that fact, it's indeed doable. There's also the new variable of GPGPU via DirectCompute and CUDA. On the old model physics (PhysX, Havok) was handled by the CPU, but nVidia GPUs have PhysX built in. So that's one less thing for the CPU to do.

The obvious benefit with Atom is lower operating temperature and lower power consumption. The original Xbox 360 was brought to its knees by cooling issues. Something MS definitely doesn't want to repeat.

Yep. The GPU is even more important next gen than this one. It's taking over physics as well as new general compute duties. Fixed function hardware (most associated with the GPU) handles A/V en/decoding and most compression tasks.

There's so little left for a CPU to do at this point, if they're skimping on the CPU to put more silicon and money towards GPU, cache, memory, fixed function, etc - then they have their priorities straight.
 
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