Xbit: Next Xbox Console to have ARM CPU!

[taltamir]

So, physics just magically happens in some silicon ether, not in the CPU

The modern "GPU" is more like a massively parallel in order CPU rather then a lot of fixed function hardware. As such it can do physics (as you might have noticed) and do so better than the CPU.

It didn't really catch on in the desktop but it can certainly be done on a console.

That being said, there are plenty of things for a CPU to do in a modern game even without physics. An anemic CPU would be a serious problem for games.

 

[gorydetails]

Console could prolly get rid of the cpu.

 

[Cerb]

The modern "GPU" is more like a massively parallel in order CPU rather then a lot of fixed function hardware. As such it can do physics (as you might have noticed) and do so better than the CPU.

*woosh*

The snide point of that was that at current, both consoles use the CPU for most physics (Havok and PhysX), and performance is quite good, using Altivec for the number crunching. Now, actual physics done through PhysX, as well, is getting fast enough on x86 CPUs, since they started incorporating vector extension support on x86.

 

[ElFenix]

XBOX has never had backcompat. Then again, I still think that PowerPC 470S would be the better pick for the console.

1.6W on 40 nm at 1.6 ghz, sounds great for console use. MS may have decided not to have a 10 lb power brick anymore but attempting to shave that down another watt with reduced performance doesn't seem like a good trade off.

 

[Blue Shift]

This seems remarkably silly and unrealistic. Unless, of course, the "XBox Loop" is a handheld.

 

[Joseph F]

I just don't see it, most console development work is done on PC's (i guess the SDK's could port to anything though). If they go with a custom CPU it will take 2 years post release for all the dev's to really get the hang of it. It will be at least a year before the SDK's are doing all the advanced stuff the top tier (1st party) dev's can pull off. Then there is just the cost associated with doing it this way. Ask Sony (or better yet their shareholders) how that cell worked out. another $600 console to pay off all that R&D? anyone...

Windows 8 on arm is about windows tablets running Metro, software houses will not be migrating all of their code to ARM.

Will ARM tablets replace notebooks with apps and cloud based services, I think so eventually. Will they be running the equivalent of BF3 (PC) in a couple years.. ah no.

The PS3 didn't cost $600 at launch because of R&D AFAIK. As a matter of fact, I've heard that they cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $840 just to manufacture them back in '06. (You can blame RAMBUS and expensive-ass blue laser diodes for that)

 

[ElFenix]

This seems remarkably silly and unrealistic. Unless, of course, the "XBox Loop" is a handheld.

Internally, the Vita features a 4 core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore processor and a 4 core SGX543MP4+ graphics processing unit, as well as LiveArea software as its main user interface, which succeeds the XrossMediaBar.[7][13]

yup

 

[cbn]

This seems remarkably silly and unrealistic. Unless, of course, the "XBox Loop" is a handheld.

ARM will be licensing stronger cores.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5027/appliedmicro-announces-xgene-arm-based-socs-for-cloud-computing

In fact, this 64 bit ARMv8 server SOC will be sampling second half 2012.

 

[cbn]

XBOX has never had backcompat. Then again, I still think that PowerPC 470S would be the better pick for the console.

Not sure about backwards compatibility...

But I am skeptical about how many people are really going to want to play old games (based on 2005 hardware) if MS does a good job on this new Xbox Loop?

 

[Cerb]

yup

Er, isn't the Vita Sony's?

 

[ElFenix]

Er, isn't the Vita Sony's?

yes.

i was trying to point out how much this sounds like handheld hardware by posting the specs of sony's latest handheld.

 

[wirednuts]

well, my guess is the new xbox will HIGHLY stress on power consumption, so SoC seems fair game... and as we see in pc graphics, even if you throw a massive amount of gpu power at video games, they still look like video games. i wouldnt be surprised if the new xbox isnt even twice as fast as the old...

and microsoft has always said they want xbox in every home, not just gamers... thats why they continually add to the media center experience. imagine a top-tier gaming device that is also the ultimate media center server. i bet the new machine runs on 75w or less, with plenty of smart ways to conserve power (smart sleep states and such)

and im guessing the new xbox will have a bluray drive? i cant imagine it wont...

 

[Blue Shift]

as we see in pc graphics, even if you throw a massive amount of gpu power at video games, they still look like video games. i wouldnt be surprised if the new xbox isnt even twice as fast as the old...

Uhh, don't you think that's a bit ridiculous? Current PCs are still crippled by the fact that most of the games on them are console ports... Developers can't really be troubled to add anything additional for PCs aside from higher resolution textures and longer draw distances these days. Sometimes they don't even include anti-aliasing.

A new Microsoft console with double the power *might* be able to run current 360 games at 60fps and 1920x1080. Might. Remember that console games are often either upscaled from lower resolutions (such as "HD" 720), or running at 30-45fps.



Moreover, there are other important reasons for Microsoft to not skimp on the CPU for their next console. Kinect currently requires a separate processor on the unit itself in order to complete motion detecting computations in realtime. If this could be moved into the console itself (which isn't feasible currently due to the 360's shortage of CPU power), additional optimizations could be performed. For example, if a game only cares whether the user is leaning left or right, then only enough processing will need to be done to detect that basic change in body profile. Currently, the Kinect has to (as always) determine the entire observable state of the human participant. Optimizations such as these could make Kinect far more responsive by reducing latency between the player's motion and the game's reaction, as well as allowing the system co collect data more frequently. They require, however, a much faster processor within the system itself.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

So, physics just magically happens in some silicon ether, not in the CPU.

Realistically, next gen physics probably *should* run on GPGPU. The GPU is much better suited at running down lists and vector adding velocities than the cpu.

Script-powered world interactions don't use the CPU? More objects, especially NPCs, don't need more CPU?

You'd be surprised how much faster wider OoOE cores such as those available on PPC470S or A15 are in running scripts full of memory loads and jumps. A mountain of script referencing memory all over the place (as game scripts are wont to do) is pretty much the nightmare case for in-order cpus. Hence, why everyone lamented that game AI was doomed to suffer when they picked in-order cpus last gen.

That would be easy for IBM to work around; and I'm going to take a wait and see approach to the ARM.

As I said, I think the best choice would be IBM PPC 470S. However, I really don't think there will be *that* much difference with it and A15. Mostly, it's a bit wider in practise, and is better at mixing FP and Int ops. It'll probably all boil down to licensing fees, and who MS more wants to work with.

1.6W on 40 nm at 1.6 ghz, sounds great for console use. MS may have decided not to have a 10 lb power brick anymore but attempting to shave that down another watt with reduced performance doesn't seem like a good trade off.

Just to point out, PowerPC 470S is considerably *faster* than Xenon in realistic integer loads. Especially so, because it has such a small silicon footprint and can be synthetized at up to 16-core versions. (Although they might want to leave one of the clusters free to get cache-coherent operation with the GPU, so it's really max 12 cores.)

 

[cbn]

As I said, I think the best choice would be IBM PPC 470S. However, I really don't think there will be *that* much difference with it and A15.

I am not sure what upgrade CPU (beyond 470S) IBM will have out by 2013, but I would think ARMv8 should be available to Microsoft in time for a late 2013 Launch.

 

[SickBeast]

Xbit tends to be spot on, so I'm thinking this rumour has some teeth.

They say that the console manufacturers don't like going with x86 CPUs as a means of preventing piracy.

It just seems far off into the future is all. Fusion took AMD years and years to create. Merging AMD's GPU technology with ARM's CPU technology may sound simple, but it's probably quite a complex and involved process.

I would be surprised to see the current consoles last more than a couple more years in terms of relevance. The PC has outclassed them for quite awhile now.

 

[cbn]

Another reason MS might decide to use ARM:

Nvidia has Denver coming and has repeatedly emphasized their partnership with Google's Operating System (over the years).

 

[Cerb]

You'd be surprised how much faster wider OoOE cores such as those available on PPC470S or A15 are in running scripts full of memory loads and jumps. A mountain of script referencing memory all over the place (as game scripts are wont to do) is pretty much the nightmare case for in-order cpus. Hence, why everyone lamented that game AI was doomed to suffer when they picked in-order cpus last gen.

My only doubt there is whether the A15 is really up to par. While the CPU they used wasn't so bad (even back then, the small cache was worse than a being an in-order speed demon cut down), at the time, it's very much lagging, now. A much better GPU would still significantly limit what games could do, without a much better CPU.

 

[cbn]

Maybe another reason why MS wants to go "low cost": Google wants to become more console-like.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/25/chrome-to-gain-plug-and-play-gamepad-support-and-webrtc-video-ch/

Chrome to gain plug and play gamepad support and WebRTC video chat in 2012

By Michael Gorman posted Nov 25th 2011 2:39PM

Seems like Big G updates its browser of choice with fresh features every time we turn around, and one of Google's own, dev advocate Paul Kinlan, revealed that another spate of upgrades are arriving for Chrome early next year. The headliner is plug-and-play support for gamepads, but native support for cameras, microphones and open-source video chat app WebRTC are on the docket too -- features that give Chrome some considerable gaming chops when combined with its existing WebGL and HTML 5 prowess and, he says, could bring OnLive to the web without plugins. If you thought Angry Birds on a browser was a great, we can't wait to see what's in store when a proper controller and integrated video chat are involved.

 

[Subyman]

I wish they would just drop backward compatibility. Like the PS3, you can pick up a used PS2 for 20 dollars, but most people already have them.

 

[brybir]

http://www.tgdaily.com/games-and-entertainment-features/59853-ms-eyes-dual-sku-strategy-for-xbox-720


I think the above link takes a slightly different conclusion from the same source information, namely that there will be two or more MS SKUs, one based on being more of a nettop type of device for interactive tv sort of stuff using Kinnect (think Apple TV + Xbox 360 + Kinnect - graphics and cpu horsepower) = MS 720 "light". Then have another, beefier console for the core market with a multicore IBM, AMD graphics etc.


Anyways, article also says the "partners" are AMD, Imageon, and Samsung