Xbit: Next Xbox Console to have ARM CPU!

[ViRGE]

I'd just as well buy a lottery ticket. The odds of winning the jackpot are higher than this being true.

 

[DaveSimmons]

> with multiple dedicated assistive cores for graphics, AI, physics, sound, networking, encryption and sensors, according to MS Nerd blog.

A CPU core for sound, which takes almost no CPU load now? A CPU core for "AI" which is part of the general logic of the program?

Even a CPU core for physics doesn't make sense compared to having that be done by the GPU when needed and letting the GPU use that power for graphics when it is not needed.

100% BS. Clicking the link is giving them hits for a garbage post.

 

[Soccerman06]

I cant say anymore than, no it wont (legally).

 

[cbn]

There's nothing about the ARM ISA that relegates it to low power and low performance. Consider a Sandy Bridge CPU with an ARM decoder instead of x86 = instant high performance ARM processor.

Is it really that easy?

I thought there were other differences beyond the decoder?

 

[SonicIce]

So will they call it the Red Loop of Death?

 

[jmarti445]

It Oddly makes sense to me and I'll explain. The problem with consoles is that they are limited to the amount of power they can put into their system. Think about a console that costs $300, what type of power supply does it require? High End Graphics cards and CPU's require mucho power. The fact that the Wii U is using a 4770 is likely at the limits of what they can use in a console at the moment.

Console gaming in the past was the leading edge but it isn't so anymore due to the amount of power high end components use. For me using an ARM CPU makes sense especially when you think what if they put about 30-40 of the cores into a gaming console and finished it off with a mid range graphics card like a HD 6870 or a GTX 460, while it wouldn't be at the bleeding edge I guarantee that the physics computing potential of 40 ARM cores would be about equivilant to a Sandy Bridge CPU and since they are so easy on power you would be able to get a about the same wattage usage.

It certainly would be an upgrade over what is in the consoles now.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

I really don't understand why the next XBOX and PS3 aren't jumping all over AMD Fusion.

Why pay die area & power for x86? There is no need for the performance, and in Trinity, the cpu is still 1/3rd of the die?

Win 8 isnt even out yet, does this mean win 9 will be out in 2 years??

Microsoft said a while back that they will try to keep up a release/2 years schedule from now on. Of course, vista wasn't really meant to slip as far as it did, so who knows how well they can hold to that schedule.

I guess I dont understand how the new architecture would work, and how they would work with backwards compatability.
I cant believe that they would not have at least one generation of backwards compatability.

The same way they did last time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_games_compatible_with_Xbox_360

XBOX has never had any real backcompat -- and given that the new console will likely be very heavily tied to Live, they can probably just ask the game companies to port some of the highest-profile games and ship them over the net.

And also, how would this work with porting to the PC if they go to this new architecture.

Arm->x86 would not be any harder than powerpc -> pc. Basically, all the higher-level infrastructure would look the same on xbox and windows, and if you work in asm, you have to do separate codepaths.

I have this terrible fear that in order to save a few bucks, microsoft would put the final nail in the coffin of PC gaming by making it almost impossible to make PC compatable games. Maybe though this could be a good opportunity for AMD to make some sort of SoC or graphics integration module.

MS has heavily pushed for higher-level programming tools for gaming for a long time now. This makes porting between different (MS) platforms easier, not harder. If you work on XNA, you don't need to care if the cpu below you is x86, arm, or powerpc.

Is it really that easy?

I thought there were other differences beyond the decoder?

There are some, but those are not things that are particularly important for performance and chip design. Basically, if Intel wanted to make a high-end arm core, they could apply their knowledge and make one with pretty minimal work. Arm cores are slow and power-efficient now because that's where their market has traditionally been. Cortex A15 should be much faster than what they have out now, and after that, ARMv8 cpus should be even faster than that.



A large issue that people are ignoring is that *consoles do not really need good cpus these days*. They need more memory, more GPU power, but frankly, cpu is not a component that determines how good the games appear.

So, they are moving towards a soc that probably spends 80% or more of die area on graphics, with a bunch of cpu cores tossed in for good measure.

Whether those cores are arm, or powerpc 470s, or whatever, doesn't really matter that much. Frankly, it could be bobcat.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Anyone think the part going in Xbox Loop is the same one pictured in SA for GPU package memory? It's "far future" enough.

 

[thilanliyan]

I wouldn't be so sure about this for the upcoming xbox.

For the one after maybe...

 

[Red Storm]

This "rumor" sounds like nothing more than a grab for attention by throwing together terms that are currently popular in the mobile device market.

 

[ed29a]

Wow, I wonder what this is going to do to the PC gaming industry?

Nothing.

 

[taltamir]

Well, MS has already paid for an ARM architectural license: http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4204863/Microsoft-takes-ARM-license

MS has this thing called windows phone...

Interesting though that both PS4 and Xbox loop are now rumored to be using an ARM CPU

 

[Cerb]

A large issue that people are ignoring is that *consoles do not really need good cpus these days*. They need more memory, more GPU power, but frankly, cpu is not a component that determines how good the games appear.

Games have more than polygons, textures, and shaders, and they do need CPU power (if nothing else, rendering a more complicated scene is going to need more CPU). Consoles have never needed CPUs as good as a high-end gaming rig, but they do need decent CPUs, if they want more interesting and immersive games. Current ARMs (A10 and A15 are unknowns) would all be worse than taking Xenon, and giving it more cache and speed bump.

Heterogeneous cores for various processing tasks would be a step backwards, as well, much like the Cell.

I don't doubt that ARM CPUs will become sufficiently capable, but unless the A15 makes us go, "wow," , I wouldn't expect it soon.

As to x86 Fusion...WHY?! Intel's graphics suck, and you can't take SB and fab it somewhere else with your own GPU of choice, and AMD's CPUs have very poor performance for their cost and power. x86 is no better a choice now, than it was when they decided to rip off the Cell thrice for a CPU, instead of going x86, again.

 

[happy medium]

MS has this thing called windows phone...

Interesting though that both PS4 and Xbox loop are now rumored to be using an ARM CPU

I believe the new PSP is also.

 

[Dribble]

The reason they won't go x86 is they can't have what they want - which is their own custom chip that they own design rights for to their specification. The only people that can make x86 are Intel and AMD, and they will only provide you with a finished chip designed to fit into one of their x86 motherboards of which only they are allowed to make too.

ARM has no such constraints - you license the cpu for peanuts and then you can do whatever you like, including fairly easily making your own SOC, and fabbing it wherever you want. Hence the push from many of the players who make their own hardware (apple, sony, ms) away from x86 towards ARM.

 

[taltamir]

The reason they won't go x86 is they can't have what they want - which is their own custom chip that they own design rights for to their specification. The only people that can make x86 are Intel and AMD, and they will only provide you with a finished chip designed to fit into one of their x86 motherboards of which only they are allowed to make too.

ARM has no such constraints - you license the cpu for peanuts and then you can do whatever you like, including fairly easily making your own SOC, and fabbing it wherever you want. Hence the push from many of the players who make their own hardware (apple, sony, ms) away from x86 towards ARM.

That is actually really good observation.
AMD was talking about fusion and APUs for a while, and intel had them beat by a good amount of time for that... but the first APU in the market was actually made by MS.

MS designed an APU combining their xbox 360 GPU with its PPC CPU, along with a specially designed component whose sole purpose was to slow it down to the speed of the non integrated parts (since integration gave it a significant performance boost and they wanted to keep performance identical between it and older xbox 360s)

The question though, is will MS and Sony abaondon their existing PPC designs. They invested heavily in their development, game makers spent years optimizing for the platform. Would the throw all that away for going with ARM? The answer to that is "only if IBM, the owner of PPC, was being unreasonable about licensing for next gen consoles"

Which is a distinct possibility. IBM could have gotten all greedy and MS And Sony could, as a result, abandon them in favor of ARM. It would mean throwing away years of optimization and require a large investment in improving ARM performance, but it is possible.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

> with multiple dedicated assistive cores for graphics, AI, physics, sound, networking, encryption and sensors, according to MS Nerd blog.

A CPU core for sound, which takes almost no CPU load now? A CPU core for "AI" which is part of the general logic of the program?

Even a CPU core for physics doesn't make sense compared to having that be done by the GPU when needed and letting the GPU use that power for graphics when it is not needed.

100% BS. Clicking the link is giving them hits for a garbage post.

Yeah, makes it sound like MS is designing the PS1. That silly machine had separate propitiatory chips for everything.

 

[quest55720]

There is almost no chance the NEXT XBOX or PS use an ARM CPU. They going with a system as powerful as the new PSP? MS would be much better off with a 28NM XENOS with an extra core. They already own the license and have development tools around it. The next XBOX will have some kind of IBM CPU in it. Any ARM coming out soon is not going to even be remotely powerful enough. Even the big A15 is still only going to be in the league of the freaking ATOM at much lower power level.

 

[ElFenix]

this sounds a lot more like a gaming phone platform than a console. xbox phone.

i just don't know why you'd break compatibility between current 360 games and the next gen. easy enough to keep powerpc and amd. amd has been pushing the power envelope downward for the last several revisions. and there's nothing about powerpc that makes it consume 100 watts if you're not on the absolute bleeding edge.

 

[Fox5]

I could see a console using an ARM cpu.

Consoles have a very limited power budget. After a certain point, cpus require exponentially more power to scale performance just a little bit. You can get much better return on your power budget with a beefier GPU or more memory. Probably ~10-20W cpu (think like intel's ULV chips) is ideal for performance/power budget.

 

[tynopik]

As long as it has a real GPU designed by Nvidia or AMD this'll be ok. I don't think ARM or PowerVR can make a GPU anywhere close in performance to a modern day PC graphics card now or in the future.

Never fear, it will be powered by BitBoys

Also the report that it will run on ARM isn't exactly accurate, it will run on a transmeta cpu that is emulating the ARM instruction set.

 

[jacktesterson]

Because the fusion GPU is slow...

Not if Games are properly designed to run on it.

PC Games suck as utilizing hardware properly.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

Games have more than polygons, textures, and shaders, and they do need CPU power (if nothing else, rendering a more complicated scene is going to need more CPU).

No, today, it really doesn't. The job of a cpu in modern (dx10+) rendering is mostly to send datasets to the GPU. So what you need is really good IO. Which you would have with beefy unified memory bus.

Current ARMs (A10 and A15 are unknowns) would all be worse than taking Xenon, and giving it more cache and speed bump.

...unless the A15 makes us go, "wow," , I wouldn't expect it soon.

But we do know something about the A15. Specifically, it's 3-issue OoO instead of 2-issue, and arm is marketing it with 40% clock-for-clock speedup over A9. Also, it has advertised speeds up to 2.5GHz. It would shred Xenon, especially in latency-sensitive integer loads. (The FPU is likely not that good, but then again, all next-gen consoles will ship with very highly programmable GPUs).

There is almost no chance the NEXT XBOX or PS use an ARM CPU. They going with a system as powerful as the new PSP? MS would be much better off with a 28NM XENOS with an extra core. They already own the license and have development tools around it. The next XBOX will have some kind of IBM CPU in it. Any ARM coming out soon is not going to even be remotely powerful enough. Even the big A15 is still only going to be in the league of the freaking ATOM at much lower power level.

Really, no. A15 will not be *as powerful as the next PSP*. A15 will be much faster than ATOM. Also, Xenon *isn't* much faster than atom.

i just don't know why you'd break compatibility between current 360 games and the next gen. easy enough to keep powerpc and amd. amd has been pushing the power envelope downward for the last several revisions. and there's nothing about powerpc that makes it consume 100 watts if you're not on the absolute bleeding edge.

XBOX has never had backcompat. Then again, I still think that PowerPC 470S would be the better pick for the console.

 

[Dravic]

I just don't see it, most console development work is done on PC's (i guess the SDK's could port to anything though). If they go with a custom CPU it will take 2 years post release for all the dev's to really get the hang of it. It will be at least a year before the SDK's are doing all the advanced stuff the top tier (1st party) dev's can pull off. Then there is just the cost associated with doing it this way. Ask Sony (or better yet their shareholders) how that cell worked out. another $600 console to pay off all that R&D? anyone...

Windows 8 on arm is about windows tablets running Metro, software houses will not be migrating all of their code to ARM.

Will ARM tablets replace notebooks with apps and cloud based services, I think so eventually. Will they be running the equivalent of BF3 (PC) in a couple years.. ah no.

 

[Cerb]

No, today, it really doesn't. The job of a cpu in modern (dx10+) rendering is mostly to send datasets to the GPU. So what you need is really good IO. Which you would have with beefy unified memory bus.

So, physics just magically happens in some silicon ether, not in the CPU. Script-powered world interactions don't use the CPU? More objects, especially NPCs, don't need more CPU? You seemed to ignore that part. The CPU isn't just a front-end for the GPU. It runs all of the game that isn't in the GPU, and then also acts as a front-end for the GPU. Current consoles are stretched about as far as they can go on their old wimpy CPUs, and need newer and better wimpy CPUs.

But we do know something about the A15. Specifically, it's 3-issue OoO instead of 2-issue, and arm is marketing it with 40% clock-for-clock speedup over A9. Also, it has advertised speeds up to 2.5GHz. It would shred Xenon, especially in latency-sensitive integer loads.

That would be easy for IBM to work around; and I'm going to take a wait and see approach to the ARM. At this point, we don't even know what the A9 would be like, if given freedom from cell phone and tablet constraints. Few good test platforms are out there, and nobody who has had one has taken the time to (or, if they are doing commercial development with it, been allowed to) try to get some gauge of real-world performance. RISC CPUs can always show high int throughput, so I'll keep my skeptic hat on.