X58 question

[lavaheadache]

Why the heck are people charging such crazy high prices for 1366 boards? I've been trying to find one at a reasonable price but these 5+ year old boards cost more than most new 1150 and 1155 boards. What am I missing. Do they watch your kids for you or something ?

 

[MongGrel]

This whole thread, more or less.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2335636&highlight=l5639&page=66

 

[lavaheadache]

so the boards are real expensive because you can buy a cheap cpu and almost match the speed of the new chips? That's rather idiotic. Who would buy a super expensive old board just to run an old server chip at high clock speeds just to match a stock current gen cpu?

seems counter productive. no?

 

[JM Popaleetus]

X58 boards have more PCIe lanes than even Z97, support triple-channel memory and hex-core processors.

You'd have to go up to X79 (more expensive) or X99 (crazy expensive right now) otherwise.

 

[mistersprinkles]

X58 boards have more PCIe lanes than even Z97, support triple-channel memory and hex-core processors.

You'd have to go up to X79 (more expensive) or X99 (crazy expensive right now) otherwise.

:hmm:

X58 is PCIE 2.0. Z97 is PCIE 3.0.

Lets say X58 gives you 40 PCIE lanes and Z97 gives you 16, and you want to run 2 cards. On X58 you'll get 16/16 and on Z97 you'll get 8/8. The thing is, they're both exactly the same bandwidth. PCIE 3.0 X8=PCIE 2.0 X16. On top of that, the max bandwidth you could get with any card on an X58 system is PCIE 3.0 X8 equivalent (PCIE 2.0 X16), so really, you're losing when you go X58.

We're talking about 6 year old tech here. No SATA 3/USB 3 in the chipset. And forget about M.2 and Sata Express.

Also, if you look at some benchmarks, you'll see that at the same clock speed (4.0Ghz), a 2600K matches and sometimes beats a 980X (6 core). Crank the 2600K up to 4.8Ghz, and it doesn't just beat the 980X, it slaughters it.

Consider that Ivybridge and Haswell have brought incremental processing efficiency improvements and a 4790K at 4Ghz now mops the floor with a 980X at 4Ghz. Plus you have the inferior link speed of the PCIE.

Anybody picking up X58 at this point is misinformed IMO. a Z97 i5 or i7 K SKU build is all 99% of PC users could ever want or wish for, honestly. If you truly need more PCIE, or more cores, look at X99.

BTW X99 is not "Crazy expensive". If you compare a 5820K/ASRock Extreme 4 X99/16GB 2133 to 4790K/ASRock Extreme 4 Z97/16GB 2133 you'll find the difference is only about $200. Considering that the 4790K is $340, you're almost getting the 2 extra cores of the 5820K "at par", if you will, cost wise. And you get 12 extra PCIE lanes and much higher RAM bandwidth as an added bonus.

Having said that, the Rampage III Extreme is the best looking MOBO ever.

 

[JM Popaleetus]

:hmm:

You really need to stop spreading the PCIe 2.0 versus 3.0 misinformation, and I actually already linked this to you in a different thread:

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Impact-of-PCI-E-Speed-on-Gaming-Performance-518/

While PCIe 3.0 may be theoretically twice as fast as 2.0, the reality is, video cards are just not saturating the bus enough (yet) to make a difference.

Furthermore, core for core at stock speeds, Z97 is only about ~20-30% faster than X58...equal if you compare against a hex-core Xeon for multithreaded applications, or are strictly gaming.

Finally, yes, X99 is a "crazy expensive" upgrade right now. Have you looked at the prices of DDR4?

 

[JM Popaleetus]

For the record, I'm not saying X58 is better than Z97 (or vice versa). But the prices are somewhat justified considering its capabilities.

 

[Burpo]

+1
I built my entire rig for $600, and for what I do (encoding & video editing), an overclocked X58 "mops the floor" with a 4790k in everything I use, and is close to a stock 5820k.. QPI is not so slow as to be irrelevant..

"X58 QuickPath Interconnect uses 21 unidirectional differential pairs in each direction, for a total of 84 pins per QPI. At the highest bandwidth, each QPI can transfer up to 12.8 GB/s usable in each direction simultaneously using the QPI protocol.. Unlike the front-side bus (FSB), QPI is a point-to-point interface and supports not only processor-chipset interface, but also processor-to-processor connection and chip-to-chip connection. The X58 has two QPIs and can directly connect to two processors on a multi-socket motherboard.."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_X58

For many different uses, X58 will remain relevant for years to come..

 

[mindbomb]

pci express 3 is only 1.6 times faster than pci express 2. This is because the data is less efficiently encoded in pci express 3.0, otherwise it would have been the full 2 times faster. So x8 3.0 is like ~x13 2.0

 

[mistersprinkles]

Furthermore, core for core at stock speeds, Z97 is only about ~20-30% faster than X58...equal if you compare against a hex-core Xeon for multithreaded applications, or are strictly gaming.

Finally, yes, X99 is a "crazy expensive" upgrade right now. Have you looked at the prices of DDR4?

"only" 30% faster? 30% is massive. And yes, I have looked at the price of DDR4.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-860-_-Product

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-757-_-Product

I don't call <$40 extra for DDR 4 "expensive". Again, the entire platform upgrade cost from a 4790K to a 5820K using the same segment mobo and the same amount of RAM is about $200.

 

[Burpo]

And that has what to do with the OP?

 

[JM Popaleetus]

"only" 30% faster? 30% is massive. And yes, I have looked at the price of DDR4.

I don't call <$40 extra for DDR 4 "expensive". Again, the entire platform upgrade cost from a 4790K to a 5820K using the same segment mobo and the same amount of RAM is about $200.

30% over three generations is not massive at all when performance was up to Nehalem. And again, that's only in multithreaded applications, there is nearly zero difference in games.

And are you really trying to compare enthusiast-grade Cas 11 DDR3 to entry-level DDR4?

 

[mistersprinkles]

30% over three generations is not massive at all when performance was up to Nehalem. And again, that's only in multithreaded applications, there is nearly zero difference in games.

And are you really trying to compare enthusiast-grade Cas 11 DDR3 to entry-level DDR4?

Yes, I am trying to compare the two. You call Cas 11 @ 2133 enthusiast grade? Cas 9 at 2133 is enthusiast grade.

Again, as you said, in gaming, there's zero difference between the two RAM(s).

If I were buying a PC today, I'd gladly take the 30% difference in performance. I'd take the better memory controller. I'd take the faster PCIE, I'd take the on-chipset USB3 and SATA3. I'd take the SATA Express and the M.2, and the better integrated audio.

X58 is not a wise purchase.

 

[Burpo]

X58 is not a wise purchase.

lol.. you're so smart as to decide what each person needs and can afford.. How do you do it? :hmm:

I can barely buy a motherboard & chip for what I've got in my whole rig, w/ 12gb RAM, case, cooler, GTX video, SSD, 3TB data drive, & blu-ray burner.

You're assessment is your opinion, and nowhere close to accurate for some of us. Wonder what it would take to best my cheapo X58 rig.. At 1/4 of todays cost, I got exactly what I wanted... A Beast for rendering..

"not a wise purchase" lolol You're funny..

 

[MongGrel]

And that has what to do with the OP?

 

[mistersprinkles]

lol.. you're so smart as to decide what each person needs and can afford.. How do you do it? :hmm:

I can barely buy a motherboard & chip for what I've got in my whole rig, w/ 12gb RAM, case, cooler, GTX video, SSD, 3TB data drive, & blu-ray burner.

You're assessment is your opinion, and nowhere close to accurate for some of us. Wonder what it would take to best my cheapo X58 rig.. At 1/4 of todays cost, I got exactly what I wanted... A Beast for rendering..

"not a wise purchase" lolol You're funny..

As long as you're happy with the inferior performance and I/O, all power to you, I guess... ()

 

[Burpo]

Inferior my a$$.. post your scores Mistersprinkles.. lol.. Good name, the way you "sprinkle" your wisdom in threads.. lolol

set ignore_mistersprinkles

 

[MongGrel]

As long as you're happy with the inferior performance and I/O, all power to you, I guess... ()

Your pics ?

 

[JM Popaleetus]

Again, as you said, in gaming, there's zero difference between the two RAM(s).

If I were buying a PC today, I'd gladly take the 30% difference in performance.

X58 is not a wise purchase.

No, I said there is no difference between Nehalem (1st generation i7) and Haswell (4th generation i7) when it comes to gaming. That statement is also taking PCIe 3.0 into considering.

You're the one comparing two different classes of memory to make an argument that there only a "small difference" in price.

Finally, nobody here is saying X58 is better than Z97 or X99. However, there are a lot of us heavily invested in DDR3-era components OR don't see the need to do a complete overhaul for a 30% increase in strictly multithreaded-applications...especially when an used $50 Xeon from eBay can yield the same performance.

 

[Justinbaileyman]

Are you fricken kidding me?? So you would rather pay $1500-2500 to go X99 when you can spend $300-600 for basically the same performance?? Well if your Mr. Money Bags more power to ya. But untill you post some pictures showing you actually have x99 and its a major improvement of 30% or more then I or many many many others here are not going to believe the BS your sprinkling.. Besides I can run my 6 core 12 thread cpu at 4.8-5.0Ghz 24/7 till it burns out and easily replace it with another for a mire $50-60 bucks. You'll be lucky to get over 4.5GHz with anything on x99 and if you burn out any cpu on that platform its gonna cost you some big big bucks to replace it.
Not to mention I can drop in another cpu to make a 12 core 24 thread Encoding Beast.Also what are you talking about that there is no SATA 6/USB 3 in the chipset?? I think you must be looking at the first batch or first run of X58 motherboards. There are Newer boards that were released that has everything most current gen stuff has.Try looking up MSI Big Bang,Asus Rampage Extreme III,Gigabyte X58A-OC,and Evga Sr2 just to name a few. there are many many many others.I just dont understand where you get your hugely mistaken superior knowledge.. Sorry I do not mean to bash you I am just trying to open your eyes along with Mr Burpo so we can save you a few $$ grand before you go and waist all your money on unneeded upgrades.

 

[Cerb]

so the boards are real expensive because you can buy a cheap cpu and almost match the speed of the new chips? That's rather idiotic. Who would buy a super expensive old board just to run an old server chip at high clock speeds just to match a stock current gen cpu?

seems counter productive. no?

Supply and demand. Core 2 Quads and Phenom II X6s are still awfully expensive, and LGA775 mobos are still pricey, too. LGA1336 is not unique.

With CPU performance reaching, "good enough," for many users, and ST performance improvements YoY dropping off, the market isn't like it used to be, where a 5+ year old PC was a good door stop.

Are you fricken kidding me?? So you would rather pay $1500-2500 to go X99 when you can spend $300-600 for basically the same performance?? Well if your Mr. Money Bags more power to ya.

Based on current eBay prices for the mobos, you'd be up to $400+ just with mobo, CPU, and a cooler, assuming you hunted down the good mobo deals (using your mobo list). 32GB RAM would be $300. A good PSU would be $50-100. A case, $50+. Then, you need HDDs and SSDs, and the OS.

With X99, the CPU and MB will cost an other $200-500, depending on choice (if going with 6C12T), and the RAM another $75 per 16GB. Otherwise, they will be similar (this also makes X79 not quite obsolete).

$600 for a whole PC with X58 is unrealistic, unless you already have suitable spare parts. I could manage a case and PSU, FI, but I don't have any 4GB or larger spare DDR3 DIMMs. For those without matching spare 4GB and 8GB DIMMs lining junk drawers, $600 is unreasonable, much less $300 (unless all you have to buy is the mobo and CPU).

Having those parts v. not having them, puts you in different markets, with different base costs. It wouldn't make economic sense for me to try to save a few bucks with X58, FI, if I had a use for more cores (X79, maybe, though), as even X58 would make for a $1,000 or more PC, by the time it was completed.

 

[Justinbaileyman]

Based on current eBay prices for the mobos, you'd be up to $400+ just with mobo, CPU, and a cooler, assuming you hunted down the good mobo deals (using your mobo list). 32GB RAM would be $300. A good PSU would be $50-100. A case, $50+. Then, you need HDDs and SSDs, and the OS.

With X99, the CPU and MB will cost an other $200-500, depending on choice (if going with 6C12T), and the RAM another $75 per 16GB. Otherwise, they will be similar (this also makes X79 not quite obsolete).

$600 for a whole PC with X58 is unrealistic, unless you already have suitable spare parts. I could manage a case and PSU, FI, but I don't have any 4GB or larger spare DDR3 DIMMs. For those without matching spare 4GB and 8GB DIMMs lining junk drawers, $600 is unreasonable, much less $300 (unless all you have to buy is the mobo and CPU).

Having those parts v. not having them, puts you in different markets, with different base costs. It wouldn't make economic sense for me to try to save a few bucks with X58, FI, if I had a use for more cores (X79, maybe, though), as even X58 would make for a $1,000 or more PC, by the time it was completed.

$600 unrealistic?? I got my mobo brand new for $99 MSI X58 GD45, 2x Intel 6-core X5650's for $90, 12GB 6 x 2GB G.skill 1600 8-8-8-8-24 $30,NZXT Case $20, 128GB SSD $40.... How is that Unrealistic?? You could even tac on another $200 for a over priced mobo and you would still be under $600.00!!Sure you have to shop around but it can be done again abd again. Also where the hell are you seeing 16GB of DDR4 for $75??
Link please, cause I will buy them all up right now!!Other wise I totally call BS!!
The cheapest I see is $299.99 and who is going to go out and buy 32GB that would be $600.00 alone?? Also would like to see a link to where you can buy a 6 core x99 cpu and mobo for $500 casue the cheapest one I could find is a 5820K for $389 and some cheap a$$ piece fo crap asrock board for 209.99 both at newegg and amazon had same prices.that alone is $600.00!!Need I say more??

 

[Cerb]

I got my mobo brand new for $99 MSI X58 GD45

Your listed boards were all available, all for over $200. That one is only available for $350, that I can find.

2x Intel 6-core X5650's for $90

Normal.

12GB 6 x 2GB G.skill 1600 8-8-8-8-24 $30

It's $90 more than that, generally.

NZXT Case $20

Last sale ones were $30, I saw.

128GB SSD $40

Never seen one below $60, to date.

Also where the hell are you seeing 16GB of DDR4 for $75??

Nowhere. "Another," is the key word.

The cheapest I see is $299.99 and who is going to go out and buy 32GB that would be $600.00 alone??

$300, but someone who needs to do more work than 8-12GB RAM suffices for. Hard to imagine needing all that CPU, but not needing more RAM than us 4-core peons use.

Also would like to see a link to where you can buy a 6 core x99 cpu and mobo for $500 casue the cheapest one I could find is a 5820K for $389 and some cheap a$$ piece fo crap asrock board for 209.99 both at newegg and amazon had same prices.that alone is $600.00!!Need I say more??

Again, delta.

You did way more than, "shop around." You spent a ton of time scrounging, and had some good timing. If you did all that and went X99, then you could well have an X99 rig for $1000, maybe less, rather than $1500+. If you take a $1500 X99 build, and replace the mobo, CPU, and RAM, you won't be under $600. Those budgets are not apples to apples comparisons.

 

[Justinbaileyman]

You did way more than, "shop around." You spent a ton of time scrounging, and had some good timing. If you did all that and went X99, then you could well have an X99 rig for $1000, maybe less, rather than $1500+. If you take a $1500 X99 build, and replace the mobo, CPU, and RAM, you won't be under $600. Those budgets are not apples to apples comparisons.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I agree with that $1000 mark a little, for maybe just the cpu,mobo,and ram only. But no way your going to get a full X99 rig going for $1000 just not going to happen. I could maybe do it all for $1200 but I could no way get it down to $1000.. SSD's and DDR3 1600 Ram can be had for cheap if you page through on ebay. I didnt do any scrounging really just had some help finding key parts for the prices I needed them at by asking in the X58 L5639 post here on Anandtech..Thats not gonna happen with X99 though as its just to new and every one is price gouging every component right now so maybe just give it some time.I wouldnt be in any kind of hurry to go X99 right now anyways till they weed out all the kinks that come with new hardware.

 

[Cerb]

Not going with 24/32/48GB RAM, which is a pill in either platform, and you aren't using in your, $600, anyway:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-5820K 3.3GHz 6-Core Processor ($383.94 @ OutletPC)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($28.99 @ Micro Center)
Motherboard: MSI X99S SLI Plus ATX LGA2011-3 Motherboard ($223.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Memory: Crucial 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2133 Memory ($194.99 @ Adorama)
Storage: Hitachi Ultrastar 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($42.99 @ Amazon) (replace w/ your used tiny SSD of choice)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GT 720 1GB Video Card ($34.99 @ NCIX US)
Case: NZXT Source 210 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case ($29.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Corsair Builder 750W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($59.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $999.87
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-20 14:11 EDT-0400

As long as it can get to near 4GHz, it should compare favorably to a ~5Ghz Gulftown. Hey, I never said X99 had good bang for the buck, and am generally not in favor of it over in GH. Since there is starting to be a used market for the CPUs, X79 is still offering good bang/buck, if buying new, or mixed new/used.

The main difference, and where you are in a different market comes in to play, is that you will get cheap everything but maybe PSU, while someone out to build a nice new machine will not, and thus will not see nearly a $1200-1900 price difference, if all they did was drop back to X58, but kept the other niceties. It's not reasonable to compare lots of cheap, often used, components, to lots of costly, mostly new, components, as it exaggerates the price difference, as if the comparison was like to like.