My Motivation: first, I want to make it clear I am no ATI or Nvidia fanboy. I like to have good hardware that works and it's correctly priced. I had in the past: 3dfx Voodoo2 and 3, Geforce 3 and 4, Ati 9800Pro and X800XT. My experience in the last years put me on the ATI side and I was a bit disappointed with the GTX because of shimmering.
Why I did this: I really grew tired of waiting for a review that would answer my questions: I decided to do it myself. Warning: this is not a scientific review; this "review" is my impression of the card.
How it happened: I saw yesterday a Sapphire X1800XL at a local store and as the store has a 7 day return policy, I decided to give it a try. The box was not sealed either (already returned?).
The review: my quest was for image quality (specially shimmering). From this perspective, there is no difference between the X1800XL and the XT. Of course the clock is different, but that would not affect IQ. The 1800XL would allow me to "preview" the X1800XT, the one I was waiting for.
Shimmering: I removed Nvidia drivers, swapped the cards, installed new Cat. 5.10a and launched World of Warcraft (the game which shimmering bothers me) at 1920x1200 (Dell FPW 2405). To my surprise and dismay, the shimmering was worse than with the GTX. I couldn't believe it. I checked the driver properties again - HQ was turned on. I tried everything: default settings, all maxed for quality. It didn't work.
I went back to the GTX and although the shimmering is there at HQ / Clamp (81.85), it was barely noticeable in comparison to the X1800XL. Holy crap!! I really couldn't imagine that. Everything is a matter of perspective: now the GTX becomes acceptable...?!?
I checked again WoW at my LAN box (S.754 Sempron 3000 / NF3 / ATI AIW 9800 / 1GB), used same driver and settings, there is absolutely no shimmering with the ATI 9800Pro.
Unfortunately I sold my X800 2 months ago and I can't compare to it, but I never noticed the shimmering before while using it (I didn't even know what was that).
Is it a driver issue or the shimmering is really worse than Nvidia's?
Fan Noise: The card's fan is very noisy at startup, than it spins down and stays quiet while idle. Just moments after starting a game, it goes into action again and it is very annoying.
I looked over the internet for a tool to control it and after contacting a 3rd party tool developer by email, I got something to work with.
While idle, the fan spins at 31% and the core is at 65ºC. As soon as the GPU is loaded, it goes to 75~77ºC (case was open) and the fan speeds up to 70%. It is very loud at this speed and it only gets worse. I manually raised the speed to 100% and I don't believe anyone will be able to live with that (which may happen if installed in SFF).
Overclock: Catalyst CCC 5.10a has an overclock feature. The card went very easily from 500/500 to 575/550. It ran 3DMark05 without glitches. The limit is given by the control panel.
I tried the beta 3rd party tool to overclock it (it is a beta version and it has support for the x1k family). In order to avoid problems, I decided to only try what the driver allowed. As soon as I touched the controls, the whole screen crapped. The ATI driver kicked it out and brought the control back. For this purpose it is not working yet. Very interesting though is the control tab for CPU and Memory Voltage.
I didn't have the balls to touch it, you will have to wait for a real review to do that.
Benchmark: it has been done all around the web. I will not do that. I ran 3dMark05 (all default) just for a reference:
Sapphire X1800XL (500/1000) = 6945
Sapphire X1800XL (550/1100) = 7512
Leadtek 7800GTX (450/1250) = 8036
Leadtek 7800GTX (480/1300) = 8432
My system: San Diego at 2.7GHz / 2Gb OCZ at 225MHz 2.5/3/3/6
MY conclusion. The X1800XL with Cat 5.10a driver is:
1) Really Noisy under GPU load;
2) Shimmering is worse than the 7800GTX (from World of Warcraft perspective);
3) Potential overclocker that will do well in the future - with proper 3rd tools and cooling aka ATI Silencer;
4) Not worth the price it is at this moment. The local store had it for $449. For $434 people can get a 7800GTX (from AOpen) and have a faster / cooler card.
Looking also at my Leadtek 7800GTX (just like the reference design), it runs also much quieter. The system noise (case and chipset fans) are louder than the GTX.
Additional Info. Current ATI Silencers (carry over X800/X850) will not fit. New design required.
EDITED info 26/10/2005
Short update.
X1800XL installed again, now running with the case closed (Antec P160, 2x120mm Fans).
More on that later.
It seems Pete was right. I never used CCC before, I prefered always the vanilla Cat.
But the Cat. 5.10a available is the CCC version and I somehow managed to leave AI ON during my "test drive" on Monday
Now with AI off and quality maxed out, there is a good improvement at 1920x1200, 4AA 8AF. It is good news but needless to say, the shimmering is still there.
It is much closer to the GTX, funny is that they shimmer in different places.
I will post more details later.
EDITED: a few hours later...
Yes, it is not so bad as I thought.
With AI OFF, it is very close to the GTX. AF16 doesn't do much better than AF8 either.
The best place to see the shimmering in WoW is Mulgore (imo) - Tauren land. You have the grass, foliage, trees, mountain hills and some buildings to look at.
I learned today that the shimmering is more noticeable during the game's daytime. I wanted to swap back to the GTX for a comparison, but it is dark now in the game and I can't really do a good comparison.
My impression is that the XL is better to show things like grass, mountain hills, road paths - large surfaces. But some foliage on the ground, tree branches and leaves, some building features (like pillars or rails) and tapestry don't look good: they shimmer.
As a preview, I would say on the shimmering issue:
GTX (78.03 HQ) similar to XL (Cat. 5.10a AI OFF),
XL (Cat. 5.10a AI OFF) better than GTX (81.85 HQ)
I will try to compare also the GTX normal quality to the XL AI ON.
I will finish this tomorrow. I am very tired now, had a hard day today, I have a cold (so do my family), I feel like crap right now. I will start again with the XL and after 30 minutes stop and swap to the GTX. I will list the driver settings also, for both cards.
Regarding the cooling, it does go to 80C with the side case cover closed. While playing, the fan goes from 31% to 72% speed. It is the noisiest component on the computer. My case has excellent airflow (Antec P160). As I mentioned yesterday, in warmer cases the noise would be even higher.
EDITED info 27/10/2005
I will run the X1800 one more time playing WoW and try to make a screenshot. I will them mark this screenshot with comments and see later how can I host it.
Meanwhile, Ackmed mentioned that BF2 shimmers also. I am willing to run the demo before I remove the card. Any ideas what I should look for?
Edited 29/10/2005
Good morning folks. I had to go to the hospital yesterday, couldn't post anything. Everything is well now.
As a remark, all gameplay was run with HQ and Clamp for the 7800 (78.03) and HQ and AI OFF for the X1800 (Cat. 5.10a). 1600x1200 AA4 AF8.
AA transparency (Nvidia) seems to be better than AA Adaptive (ATI). This makes a lot of difference on the IQ for vegetation, trees and chain fences.
On the other hand, ATI X1800 seems to provide better IQ to display textures on the floors, walls and here it shimmers equal or less than the 7800 (except for foliage/trees/fences).
If you are going to use Transp. AA, I would say that the trend is the 7800 will provide a bit better experience.
But that depends on the game type - you don't see fences at World of Warcraft. But there are lots of trees.......
At World of Warcraft, the 7800 will give you better IQ while visiting forests, savannahs (mostly because of Transp. AA). There is some shimmering on the 7800 while looking at road paths and ground textures.
The X1800 will provide better experience at desertic areas or underwater. The ground (without considering the grass) and road paths look better also at the ATI.
It is really hard to say which one provides the best experience. I would like to have the road like ATI and the trees like Nvidia.....
I played a little bit with the Fear Demo, it seems both cards have shimmering issues there. It is the same, I can't say which one is better.
I also played BF2. Here things complicate a bit. As with WoW, AA transparency (Nvidia) helps with the vegetation, trees and chain fences. But the 7800 shimmers more on the buildings walls and shadows. It shimmers also on some patches (bigger areas), which makes it very noticeable.
The ATI also shimmers, but it is less noticeable. Most of ATI shimmering happens on the vegetation and trees. You can see that on buildings also, but it is less critical than the 7800.
Here I would say the ATI is a bit better - but be warned it is not perfect. It is just a bit better.
This is my opinion, so it is totally dependent on my experience and it is subjective. It isn't a scientific experiment.
I think I will wrap things up here, as I will drive to the store and return the X1800XL in a few minutes:
1) The X1800XL is definetely a noisy product under load.
2) The temperature stays under 80C, contrary to what some people say. If you have one going to 90C, RMA it or check yourself the heatsink/thermal paste, I've had cards before badly assembled.
3) The X1800 will not provide you a shimmer free experience. It seems better than the 7800 in some cases, but it misses the good Transp. AA from the 7800.
On the other hand, the X1800's driver is just at the beginning and it is already at the 7800's level (78.03). Hopefully there is a chance that ATI will improve it even more, like Nvidia did at the 78.03.
4) If you have a 7800 like me, the differences in IQ do not justify switching to the X1800. You have to consider the loss (by selling the 7800) and the current premium for the X1800.
If you do that without test driving the X1800, you could end the day disappointed. The 7800 is also more silent than the X1800, which is a factor to consider - specially because the X1800XL is a slower card than the 7800GTX => slower and louder?
Of course the X1800XT will have a better colling solution and will be less noisy than the XL, but it is a dual slot solution.
5) If you have none of the cards, that would be really a different matter. I would pick the ATI X1800XT (not XL) over the 7800GTX if it had the same price (or less).
If the 7800GTX is cheaper and you have a SLI mainboard, stay with the 7800.
What will I do?
I had a X800 before and never noticed shimmering. I bought a Dell 2405 and had to get a better card, I wanted very much the X1800XT but only the 7800 was available.
I got very disappointed with the shimmering, I was complaining all over the AT Video Forums about it. Some of the Nvidia Fans didn't agree with that.
After this "test drive", I will keep the 7800GTX until something new comes to the market, ATI releases a driver that gets rid of the shimmering or there are substantial price drops.
Remember that price drops will happen for both companies, it might push me also into getting a second 7800 card. I might sell my GTX and get 2 7800 GTs. A 7800 GT SLI setup is roughly 250$ cheaper for me than the GTX SLI.
With new games pushing the cards to the limit, it might be a nice move. Going crossfire will cost me a mainboard also, it might be better to save this money and help it finance the second 7800.
EDITED 01/11/2005
Regarding the screenshots, I didn't forget all of you.
I don't have so much free time to do that, but I finished setting 18 screenshots (WoW, BF2 and Fear).
I made .png files and reduced them to less than 1MB (Imageshack limite).
I have to go now, but I will post them tomorrow.
Here is an example, let me know what you think (if it is a crap or worth looking).
http://img157.imageshack.us/done.php?l=.../51/x1800xlwowscrnshot102805073440.png
Why I did this: I really grew tired of waiting for a review that would answer my questions: I decided to do it myself. Warning: this is not a scientific review; this "review" is my impression of the card.
How it happened: I saw yesterday a Sapphire X1800XL at a local store and as the store has a 7 day return policy, I decided to give it a try. The box was not sealed either (already returned?).
The review: my quest was for image quality (specially shimmering). From this perspective, there is no difference between the X1800XL and the XT. Of course the clock is different, but that would not affect IQ. The 1800XL would allow me to "preview" the X1800XT, the one I was waiting for.
Shimmering: I removed Nvidia drivers, swapped the cards, installed new Cat. 5.10a and launched World of Warcraft (the game which shimmering bothers me) at 1920x1200 (Dell FPW 2405). To my surprise and dismay, the shimmering was worse than with the GTX. I couldn't believe it. I checked the driver properties again - HQ was turned on. I tried everything: default settings, all maxed for quality. It didn't work.
I went back to the GTX and although the shimmering is there at HQ / Clamp (81.85), it was barely noticeable in comparison to the X1800XL. Holy crap!! I really couldn't imagine that. Everything is a matter of perspective: now the GTX becomes acceptable...?!?
I checked again WoW at my LAN box (S.754 Sempron 3000 / NF3 / ATI AIW 9800 / 1GB), used same driver and settings, there is absolutely no shimmering with the ATI 9800Pro.
Unfortunately I sold my X800 2 months ago and I can't compare to it, but I never noticed the shimmering before while using it (I didn't even know what was that).
Is it a driver issue or the shimmering is really worse than Nvidia's?
Fan Noise: The card's fan is very noisy at startup, than it spins down and stays quiet while idle. Just moments after starting a game, it goes into action again and it is very annoying.
I looked over the internet for a tool to control it and after contacting a 3rd party tool developer by email, I got something to work with.
While idle, the fan spins at 31% and the core is at 65ºC. As soon as the GPU is loaded, it goes to 75~77ºC (case was open) and the fan speeds up to 70%. It is very loud at this speed and it only gets worse. I manually raised the speed to 100% and I don't believe anyone will be able to live with that (which may happen if installed in SFF).
Overclock: Catalyst CCC 5.10a has an overclock feature. The card went very easily from 500/500 to 575/550. It ran 3DMark05 without glitches. The limit is given by the control panel.
I tried the beta 3rd party tool to overclock it (it is a beta version and it has support for the x1k family). In order to avoid problems, I decided to only try what the driver allowed. As soon as I touched the controls, the whole screen crapped. The ATI driver kicked it out and brought the control back. For this purpose it is not working yet. Very interesting though is the control tab for CPU and Memory Voltage.
I didn't have the balls to touch it, you will have to wait for a real review to do that.
Benchmark: it has been done all around the web. I will not do that. I ran 3dMark05 (all default) just for a reference:
Sapphire X1800XL (500/1000) = 6945
Sapphire X1800XL (550/1100) = 7512
Leadtek 7800GTX (450/1250) = 8036
Leadtek 7800GTX (480/1300) = 8432
My system: San Diego at 2.7GHz / 2Gb OCZ at 225MHz 2.5/3/3/6
MY conclusion. The X1800XL with Cat 5.10a driver is:
1) Really Noisy under GPU load;
2) Shimmering is worse than the 7800GTX (from World of Warcraft perspective);
3) Potential overclocker that will do well in the future - with proper 3rd tools and cooling aka ATI Silencer;
4) Not worth the price it is at this moment. The local store had it for $449. For $434 people can get a 7800GTX (from AOpen) and have a faster / cooler card.
Looking also at my Leadtek 7800GTX (just like the reference design), it runs also much quieter. The system noise (case and chipset fans) are louder than the GTX.
Additional Info. Current ATI Silencers (carry over X800/X850) will not fit. New design required.
EDITED info 26/10/2005
Short update.
X1800XL installed again, now running with the case closed (Antec P160, 2x120mm Fans).
More on that later.
It seems Pete was right. I never used CCC before, I prefered always the vanilla Cat.
But the Cat. 5.10a available is the CCC version and I somehow managed to leave AI ON during my "test drive" on Monday
Now with AI off and quality maxed out, there is a good improvement at 1920x1200, 4AA 8AF. It is good news but needless to say, the shimmering is still there.
It is much closer to the GTX, funny is that they shimmer in different places.
I will post more details later.
EDITED: a few hours later...
Yes, it is not so bad as I thought.
With AI OFF, it is very close to the GTX. AF16 doesn't do much better than AF8 either.
The best place to see the shimmering in WoW is Mulgore (imo) - Tauren land. You have the grass, foliage, trees, mountain hills and some buildings to look at.
I learned today that the shimmering is more noticeable during the game's daytime. I wanted to swap back to the GTX for a comparison, but it is dark now in the game and I can't really do a good comparison.
My impression is that the XL is better to show things like grass, mountain hills, road paths - large surfaces. But some foliage on the ground, tree branches and leaves, some building features (like pillars or rails) and tapestry don't look good: they shimmer.
As a preview, I would say on the shimmering issue:
GTX (78.03 HQ) similar to XL (Cat. 5.10a AI OFF),
XL (Cat. 5.10a AI OFF) better than GTX (81.85 HQ)
I will try to compare also the GTX normal quality to the XL AI ON.
I will finish this tomorrow. I am very tired now, had a hard day today, I have a cold (so do my family), I feel like crap right now. I will start again with the XL and after 30 minutes stop and swap to the GTX. I will list the driver settings also, for both cards.
Regarding the cooling, it does go to 80C with the side case cover closed. While playing, the fan goes from 31% to 72% speed. It is the noisiest component on the computer. My case has excellent airflow (Antec P160). As I mentioned yesterday, in warmer cases the noise would be even higher.
EDITED info 27/10/2005
I will run the X1800 one more time playing WoW and try to make a screenshot. I will them mark this screenshot with comments and see later how can I host it.
Meanwhile, Ackmed mentioned that BF2 shimmers also. I am willing to run the demo before I remove the card. Any ideas what I should look for?
Edited 29/10/2005
Good morning folks. I had to go to the hospital yesterday, couldn't post anything. Everything is well now.
As a remark, all gameplay was run with HQ and Clamp for the 7800 (78.03) and HQ and AI OFF for the X1800 (Cat. 5.10a). 1600x1200 AA4 AF8.
AA transparency (Nvidia) seems to be better than AA Adaptive (ATI). This makes a lot of difference on the IQ for vegetation, trees and chain fences.
On the other hand, ATI X1800 seems to provide better IQ to display textures on the floors, walls and here it shimmers equal or less than the 7800 (except for foliage/trees/fences).
If you are going to use Transp. AA, I would say that the trend is the 7800 will provide a bit better experience.
But that depends on the game type - you don't see fences at World of Warcraft. But there are lots of trees.......
At World of Warcraft, the 7800 will give you better IQ while visiting forests, savannahs (mostly because of Transp. AA). There is some shimmering on the 7800 while looking at road paths and ground textures.
The X1800 will provide better experience at desertic areas or underwater. The ground (without considering the grass) and road paths look better also at the ATI.
It is really hard to say which one provides the best experience. I would like to have the road like ATI and the trees like Nvidia.....
I played a little bit with the Fear Demo, it seems both cards have shimmering issues there. It is the same, I can't say which one is better.
I also played BF2. Here things complicate a bit. As with WoW, AA transparency (Nvidia) helps with the vegetation, trees and chain fences. But the 7800 shimmers more on the buildings walls and shadows. It shimmers also on some patches (bigger areas), which makes it very noticeable.
The ATI also shimmers, but it is less noticeable. Most of ATI shimmering happens on the vegetation and trees. You can see that on buildings also, but it is less critical than the 7800.
Here I would say the ATI is a bit better - but be warned it is not perfect. It is just a bit better.
This is my opinion, so it is totally dependent on my experience and it is subjective. It isn't a scientific experiment.
I think I will wrap things up here, as I will drive to the store and return the X1800XL in a few minutes:
1) The X1800XL is definetely a noisy product under load.
2) The temperature stays under 80C, contrary to what some people say. If you have one going to 90C, RMA it or check yourself the heatsink/thermal paste, I've had cards before badly assembled.
3) The X1800 will not provide you a shimmer free experience. It seems better than the 7800 in some cases, but it misses the good Transp. AA from the 7800.
On the other hand, the X1800's driver is just at the beginning and it is already at the 7800's level (78.03). Hopefully there is a chance that ATI will improve it even more, like Nvidia did at the 78.03.
4) If you have a 7800 like me, the differences in IQ do not justify switching to the X1800. You have to consider the loss (by selling the 7800) and the current premium for the X1800.
If you do that without test driving the X1800, you could end the day disappointed. The 7800 is also more silent than the X1800, which is a factor to consider - specially because the X1800XL is a slower card than the 7800GTX => slower and louder?
Of course the X1800XT will have a better colling solution and will be less noisy than the XL, but it is a dual slot solution.
5) If you have none of the cards, that would be really a different matter. I would pick the ATI X1800XT (not XL) over the 7800GTX if it had the same price (or less).
If the 7800GTX is cheaper and you have a SLI mainboard, stay with the 7800.
What will I do?
I had a X800 before and never noticed shimmering. I bought a Dell 2405 and had to get a better card, I wanted very much the X1800XT but only the 7800 was available.
I got very disappointed with the shimmering, I was complaining all over the AT Video Forums about it. Some of the Nvidia Fans didn't agree with that.
After this "test drive", I will keep the 7800GTX until something new comes to the market, ATI releases a driver that gets rid of the shimmering or there are substantial price drops.
Remember that price drops will happen for both companies, it might push me also into getting a second 7800 card. I might sell my GTX and get 2 7800 GTs. A 7800 GT SLI setup is roughly 250$ cheaper for me than the GTX SLI.
With new games pushing the cards to the limit, it might be a nice move. Going crossfire will cost me a mainboard also, it might be better to save this money and help it finance the second 7800.
EDITED 01/11/2005
Regarding the screenshots, I didn't forget all of you.
I don't have so much free time to do that, but I finished setting 18 screenshots (WoW, BF2 and Fear).
I made .png files and reduced them to less than 1MB (Imageshack limite).
I have to go now, but I will post them tomorrow.
Here is an example, let me know what you think (if it is a crap or worth looking).
http://img157.imageshack.us/done.php?l=.../51/x1800xlwowscrnshot102805073440.png
for doing the foot work.
