X1800 lack of vertex texturing kills Pacific Fighters performance

[chinkgai]

what i'd give to have him retire instead of jokersmoker.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Hmm...he's actually being fair in this thread guys. Sometimes he does go a bit far, but hey, he's the one digging down and looking for answers.

:beer: Rollo, you're doing the work anandtech should be doing.

 

[Ackmed]

Hardly, he posted more FUD. Saying that ATi cards are slower, because of VTF in Pacific Fighters. When in the benchmark he linked to, its not even enabled. So saying that VTF causes the slower performance, is ignorant, and flat out wrong.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Hardly, he posted more FUD. Saying that ATi cards are slower, because of VTF in Pacific Fighters. When in the benchmark he linked to, its not even enabled. So saying that VTF causes the slower performance, is ignorant, and flat out wrong.

Actually, some people (fanATics to put a finer point on it...) are *ass*uming VTF isn't enabled, because the review didn't definitively state if it was or not.

I think someone should probably contact the articles author before the inquisition progresses too much further in either direction.

 

[rbV5]

Repost

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Hardly, he posted more FUD. Saying that ATi cards are slower, because of VTF in Pacific Fighters. When in the benchmark he linked to, its not even enabled. So saying that VTF causes the slower performance, is ignorant, and flat out wrong.

Actually, some people (fanATics to put a finer point on it...) are *ass*uming VTF isn't enabled, because the review didn't definitively state if it was or not.

I think someone should probably contact the articles author before the inquisition progresses too much further in either direction.

I emailed the author of that article last night, as the article didn't state whether VTF was off or on.

THanks for the info about AF not having to be off, Gstanfor. Should be useful when the game arrives and I do my VTF benching.

I promise the board I'll post my results with VTF enabled whether it's 3fps average or 300, I'm personally just curious as to whether the Xbit claim that it made a differenceis accurate. (and whether or not this feature is/will be of concern to buyers)

Thanks Leper Messiah, you are correct, I had no desire to post "FUD". Unlike those accusing me of doing so, I'm actually spending money and time to get at the truth.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: rbV5
Repost

There was no XBit article that stated ATIs part was suffering from lack of VTF then, and I had forgotten that thread. A quick scan of it makes me aware it wasn't worth resurrecting.

As usual when I point out something that could be construed as negative about ATI, that thread devolved into several fanboys attacking me personally.

It's a shame some here can't focus on the issues at hand rather than pointless flaming.

 

[schtuga]

all I want to know is

If vtf is usless and ATI's method is so much better,why is it a main feature on the R600?
Could someone please explain this.

 

[Sc4freak]

Where'd you see that?

 

[Hacp]

misleading info+vested intrest in nvidia=useless post

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Hacp
misleading info+vested intrest in nvidia=useless post

It would be nice to see you trying to confirm or disprove the thread topic instead of attacking. I know attacking is easier for some of you folks, but give it a rest. Try to resolve instead of retaliate.

 

[dug777]

*shudders*

*hands out post-boxing day :beer: to all*

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5
Repost

There was no XBit article that stated ATIs part was suffering from lack of VTF then, and I had forgotten that thread. A quick scan of it makes me aware it wasn't worth resurrecting.

As usual when I point out something that could be construed as negative about ATI, that thread devolved into several fanboys attacking me personally.

It's a shame some here can't focus on the issues at hand rather than pointless flaming.

What "issue"? You topic title is BS and flawed: "X1800 lack of vertex texturing kills Pacific Fighters performance"

ATi does't "suffer" from lack of VTF . . . the xbit blurb is dead wrong when it says " the RADEON X1000 series do not support vertex texturing" . . .

we can draw NO conclusions - yet.

As to "your being attacked" . . . i guess you don't like your own medicine. . . . too bad.
:thumbsdown:

 

[schtuga]

I was never trying to start a fight.I can't find it,but I was sure I seen either the R500 or R600 with vtf listed as a feature.
I apologize for not backing my statement.

I guess only time will tell if this becomes significant or not.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: schtuga
I was never trying to start a fight.I can't find it,but I was sure I seen either the R500 or R600 with vtf listed as a feature.
I apologize for not backing my statement.

I guess only time will tell if this becomes significant or not.

It's in the chip for the XboX360 that ATI made.

 

[schtuga]

So would it be fair to assume(I know ,not a good thing to do)that seeing as the R500/R600 are supposedly similar that the R600 might also have it.

I did find a post where someone said VTF was left off of the x1xx series simply because of space and transistor count,there was no room for it.

I just found it odd that it is supposedly slow and useless,but they used it on the xbox gpu and might end up on the r600.

Thanks for the reply bud

 

[nts]

Originally posted by: schtuga
So would it be fair to assume(I know ,not a good thing to do)that seeing as the R500/R600 are supposedly similar that the R600 might also have it.

I did find a post where someone said VTF was left off of the x1xx series simply because of space and transistor count,there was no room for it.

I just found it odd that it is supposedly slow and useless,but they used it on the xbox gpu and might end up on the r600.

Thanks for the reply bud

The Xbox360 and R600 are both unified chips, means you can do the same things in vertex shaders that you get in pixel shaders like texture lookups. There are a hell of a lot of more things that you can do on the 360 and R600 then the current PC cards.

The NV40/G70 and R520 are not unified. To implement VTF you would need enought transistors to implement full Texture Units on the vertex shaders. ATi decided not todo this (optional feature of SM3) and NVIDIA decided to implement a very limited feature set (far from full texture units).

IMO It would be nice to play with VTF but currently it is barely usable on NVIDIA cards. ATi's R2VB (which NVIDIA can support aswell but probably wont) is looking like a much better solution atm (until the next generation).

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: schtuga
all I want to know is

If vtf is usless and ATI's method is so much better,why is it a main feature on the R600?
Could someone please explain this.

The r600, as well as the r500, is a unified shader gpu, which has shaders that can work either on pixel or vertex data, and as such they are much more suitable for doing vtf. On cards with separate vertex and pixel shaders you'd need to duplicate a lot of the PS functionality in the VS to do vtf efficiently, and that would increase the cost of the cards as well as leave less room on the die for other features. It's a trade off, but seeing how only one game has vtf and it doesnt even seem enabled by default due to performance issues, I'd say the lack of vtf is not a big deal.

edit:^^^ this guy beat me to it...

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5
Repost

There was no XBit article that stated ATIs part was suffering from lack of VTF then, and I had forgotten that thread. A quick scan of it makes me aware it wasn't worth resurrecting.

As usual when I point out something that could be construed as negative about ATI, that thread devolved into several fanboys attacking me personally.

It's a shame some here can't focus on the issues at hand rather than pointless flaming.

What "issue"? You topic title is BS and flawed: "X1800 lack of vertex texturing kills Pacific Fighters performance"

ATi does't "suffer" from lack of VTF . . . the xbit blurb is dead wrong when it says " the RADEON X1000 series do not support vertex texturing" . . .

we can draw NO conclusions - yet.

As to "your being attacked" . . . i guess you don't like your own medicine. . . . too bad.
:thumbsdown:

It appears to me that currently the R52x chips cannot perform VTF at all. If the driver doesn't support the function then the hardware feature is just a little useless (until the driver DOES support it).

There are 3 apps that I know of that you can test the functionality with - nVidia's Clear sailing demo, Abba Zabba's Vertex displacement mapping demo & the pacific figthers game (links to first two in the older thread). The Abba Zabba demo is open source BTW - you can get the source from the nvnews forum thread.