X-Raid vs RAID 5

Balforth

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Just bought a Netgear ReadyNAS NV+ and 4 Green WD 2TB drives.

It will be a centralized document storage area which will get backed up to an external USB drive, and it will also hold my HTPC library.

I intended to do RAID 5, but I see it has this X-RAID ability which a lot of people seem to like, but I'm a bit leery of it. Does anybody have any experience with this? Any benefits, or should it be avoided?
 

MobiusPizza

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Apr 23, 2004
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RAID 5 should be avoided. RAID1+0 is faster and given storage is so cheap nowadays, is recommended over RAID5, unless you go and do RAID 6.

Although a bit long read the following is very informative
http://miracleas.com/BAARF/RAID5_versus_RAID10.txt

Basically the problem with RAID 5, Controller problems and the error prone Bit Error Rate of modern HDDs due to high capacity, will kill RAID 5 easier than ever before. You need special Raid certified Enterprise drives for RAID 5, like Western Digital RE, which themselves have almost 80% price premium. May as well go for RAID10 then.

If you have bought WD Caviar Green, go for RAID10 at most. They are known for RAID compatibility issues, You should have gone for Samsung or Hitachi drives. Many forum discussions on this matter. I had been a long time WD loyal customer, but I had gone for Hitachi drives for my RAID 1.
 
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beginner99

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The features these so called enterprise drives or Raid drives have are only meaningful for hardware raid. Consumer NAS all use software raid and hence completely ignore them.

However RAID 5 might need a lot of proccessing power. Check smallnetbuilders for benchmarks. But then I don't know x-raid which might have the same processing requirements.

EDIT:

Just googled and IMHO for your use case it's not worth it. looks like it's just RAID-5 with some custom beef. easier to add disks to the array or switch to larger ones. but you start of with 4 disks anyway so no problem.
 
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MobiusPizza

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that's so obsolete it's not even funny



lol

Erm no. The implementation of RAID 5 has not changed ever since its definition. Newer controllers may be more resilient, but the same can be said for other RAID levels too.
The note about bad sector remapping is irrelevent to the argument if your read that part of the article. It's enclosed in square bracket for a reason.

I quote Wikipedia on why RAID10 is 'safer' than RAID 5

There are, however, other considerations which must be taken into account other than simply those regarding performance. RAID 5 and other non-mirror-based arrays offer a lower degree of resiliency than RAID 10 by virtue of RAID 10's mirroring strategy. In a RAID 10, I/O can continue even in spite of multiple drive failures. By comparison, in a RAID 5 array, any simultaneous failure involving greater than one drive will render the array itself unusable by virtue of parity recalculation being impossible to perform. For many, particularly in mission-critical environments with enough capital to spend, RAID 10 becomes the favorite as it provides the lowest level of risk.[5]

Additionally, the time required to rebuild data on a hot spare in a RAID 10 is significantly less than RAID 5, in that all the remaining spindles in a RAID 5 rebuild must participate in the process, whereas only the spindle being created and its mirror need to participate in RAID 10. This further increases the reliability advantage of RAID 10 over RAID 5 since the window during which a second disc failure could (if it was the mirror being used in recovery that failed) cause data loss is reduced.

It's not just me. Just google Raid 10 vs Raid 5, you get plenty of people saying Raid 10 is the way to go.

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/251893-32-raid-raid
 
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RaiderJ

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Apr 29, 2001
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RAID 10 is by design "safer" than RAID 5, no one would argue with you there. You choose your RAID level based on performance/uptime requirements. Bit Error Rate is a concern when you're rebuilding an array - while an array is degraded losing another drive or encountering a non-recoverable Bit Error causes data loss.

But, no level of redundancy is a replacement for backup (which the OP is doing). There's nothing wrong with RAID 5 on the Netgear the OP has.

OP: I'd follow beginner99's advice.
 

Balforth

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Thanks all.

It's good to hear that RAID 5 shouldn't be completely avoided, as I feel like having that plus back ups will make my data more secure than it's ever been before. And the ReadyNAS doesn't support RAID 10!

I have found articles saying that X-RAID is very similar to RAID 5, but allows you to add new drives (which I'll never do because I'm maxing out the array as it is). However I also read that it provides slight speed increases for larger, sequential files, and most of the traffic will be movies. So although it has the other fancy features, it might provide some performance increase as well?

I've also purchased a 1gb sodimm module to replace the 256mb module it comes with. Not sure how much RAM effects RAID speeds, but hopefully I'll see some benefit from it.
 

MobiusPizza

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Apr 23, 2004
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What RaiderJ said makes sense.
X-RAID I read from Netgear basically is an capability of online expansion, which is nice and a standard feature for all good RAID controllers.

I hope you won't have problems with the WD drives with regards to RAID. The spin down power saving feature and TLER is reported in many forums to cause problems.
 

beginner99

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Jun 2, 2009
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Thanks all.

It's good to hear that RAID 5 shouldn't be completely avoided, as I feel like having that plus back ups will make my data more secure than it's ever been before. And the ReadyNAS doesn't support RAID 10!

I have found articles saying that X-RAID is very similar to RAID 5, but allows you to add new drives (which I'll never do because I'm maxing out the array as it is). However I also read that it provides slight speed increases for larger, sequential files, and most of the traffic will be movies. So although it has the other fancy features, it might provide some performance increase as well?

I've also purchased a 1gb sodimm module to replace the 256mb module it comes with. Not sure how much RAM effects RAID speeds, but hopefully I'll see some benefit from it.

I guess the ram is a good investment but that is just a pure common sense guess.

Playing movies doesn't tax even any consumer NAS. speed increase will only matter if you copy around a lot of huge files. And even then I guess the network will be the main bottleneck even with gigabit Ethernet.
 

Balforth

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Just stumbled across this old thread:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2097315

LOTS of great info in there about raid levels, failure rates, speed, etc. For a little while I was worried about my purchase, but as I'm still waiting for it to arrive and doing more research, I think I'll be ok...

It is too bad that those drives are on the official supported hardware list, but there are so many problems with them. I'll do a bit of research before I open them and see if it's across the board or hit/miss. I've read some people unable to use the drives from the start and others say they've had no problems.
 

sub.mesa

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Basically the problem with RAID 5, Controller problems and the error prone Bit Error Rate of modern HDDs due to high capacity, will kill RAID 5 easier than ever before. You need special Raid certified Enterprise drives for RAID 5, like Western Digital RE, which themselves have almost 80% price premium. May as well go for RAID10 then.
BER or uBER also affects RAID1's. It causes the drive to perform recovery which can take up to 120 seconds. Most hardware RAID controllers and onboard Windows controllers have a hardcoded 10 second timeout tolerance. If the harddrive does not reply within that period to an I/O request, the controller will regard the drive as failed and disconnect it, marking the drive as 'failed', 'missing', 'free' or 'non-member'.

This problem is not specific to RAID5 but rather is specific to the controller. Such controllers expect 'TLER behavior'. TLER or Time-Limited Error Recovery is a feature of WD harddrives that can limit the error recovery time to typically 7 seconds, causing the drive to forfeit recovery if the bad sector still could not be read after that time. This causes the drive to return an I/O error instead. This causes the controller to not disconnect the whole drive but either use a redundant source for data instead or return an I/O error to the application (host) - but not disconnect/fail the entire drive.

The uBER problem is therefore not unique to any RAID level but rather applies to the controller used. It also means a degraded volume like degraded RAID5 or RAID1 has a risk of failing altogether when rebuilding with a fresh disk, because the remaining disk encounters an uncorrectable bit-error.

Generally we can distinguish raw BER bit-error-rate (before ECC correction) and uBER or Uncorrectable Bit-Error-Rate (after ECC correction). Obviously the latter is the problem.

The RAID edition harddrives you mentioned have features to limit the recovery time to below 10 seconds. We can distinguish:

  • TLER or Time-Limited Error Recovery, this one is WD specific and will survive a power cycle
  • CCTL or Command-Completion Time Limit, this one is Hitachi/Samsung specific and will not survive a power cycle
  • ERC or Error Recovery Control, this one is Seagate specific and will not survive a power cycle
TLER should work on any controller since it survives power cycles, while CCTL and ERC would need to be sent every time the drive powers up and thus depends on controller-specific support.

The problems portrayed above generally apply only to hardware RAID and windows software RAID engines. They do not apply to 100% software RAID solutions provided under Linux/BSD or other UNIX operating systems, assuming a normal non-RAID controller is used. These systems do not disconnect the disk after 10 seconds of timeout and thus have no need for TLER/CCTL/ERC functionality.

The best solution to BER is the ZFS filesystem, which employs several protections to combat the problem of BER and corruption in general. A properly configured ZFS array is almost impervious to bit errors. ZFS is only available on Solaris, FreeBSD and - to a lesser degree - Linux systems, however.
 

RaiderJ

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Exactly why I went with a ZFS build on my new server from my old hardware-based RAID5 server (uBER). That, and also for the end-to-end data integrity checking it provides. No other filesystem does this as well as ZFS, AFAIK.

However, ZFS has a host of other concerns. I'm still futzing with the software end of my server build (link in my sig). Partly due to me being *NIX stupid, and partly due to quirks of Solaris/ZFS.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, ZFS does online RAID expansion as well. I'm going to test this tomorrow. Currently I have 5x2TB + 1x750GB installed in a RAIDZ1. Gives me about 3.5TB of usable space. When I swap in the final 2TB drive, it should bump me up to ~9.2TB of usable space without any changes to my system or files (assuming the rebuild is successful).
 
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Balforth

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sub.mesa: I'm confused as to what your bottom line is for using WD drives, specifically in a unit like the UltraNAS. Are you actually saying they are less prone to catastrophic failure because of TLER? Sorry I'm a bit slow...
 

taltamir

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Mar 21, 2004
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BER or uBER also affects RAID1's. It causes the drive to perform recovery which can take up to 120 seconds. Most hardware RAID controllers and onboard Windows controllers have a hardcoded 10 second timeout tolerance. If the harddrive does not reply within that period to an I/O request, the controller will regard the drive as failed and disconnect it, marking the drive as 'failed', 'missing', 'free' or 'non-member'.
I would like to point out that if your drive is set as free in a RAID1 you don't lose any data, simply destroy the now degraded array and create a new one from the free drive. (when creating a raid1 array you have the option to keep the data on one of the two drives used). I have done it before.

Anyways, excellent writeup sub.mesa.
 

sub.mesa

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Feb 16, 2010
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I would like to point out that if your drive is set as free in a RAID1 you don't lose any data, simply destroy the now degraded array and create a new one from the free drive. (when creating a raid1 array you have the option to keep the data on one of the two drives used). I have done it before.
That is true; a RAID1 is easily recoverable. But this is sort of a separate issue. Let's explain by example:

1) you have a RAID1 of two drives without TLER/CCTL/ERC for example WD EARS drives
2) one day, the second drive goes kaput as in -- permanently dead.
3) now you are left with a degraded RAID1 that is still accessible; but of course you buy a new drive and use it to rebuild the RAID1
4) however, during the rebuild, the remaining good drive encounters an unreadable sector (uBER), and it lacks TLER causing the controller to disconnect that drive from the RAID. Now you have a FAILED array because the first disk is marked 'free' or 'non-member' and the second drive did not finish rebuilding yet.

In this case, you have lost access to your data temporarily. You can recover the data quite easily by either re-creating a RAID1 using only the first drive, or disable RAID altogether and use the primary drive as a normal drive. This is possible due to the nature of RAID1 since it has the same contents as if it was a non-RAID drive. All data is 'contiguous'; a primary benefit of RAID1.

However, the story above applies to ease of recovery after uBER problems causing the RAID array to fail. If it were a RAID5 and uBER caused the array to be inaccessible, that also does not mean the data is permanently gone; it is just temporarily inaccessible until you recover it the proper way. The only difference here is that recovering from such a situation is much easier with a RAID1 than it is recovering a RAID5. Also, user errors can cause such recovery to permanently overwrite and thus destroy your data for a RAID5; which depends on disk order and parity data to retrieve your data.

So while a RAID1 has distinct advantages causing recovery in the event of 'problems with the RAID layer' it is not impervious to uBER problems. I do agree however that RAID1 for many people would be a much safer choice than RAID5. But each RAID level has its own advantages. For a large 40 drive build using RAID1 is a gigantic waste of storage space.

Also i'm not sure whether RAID1 for home users is such a good idea. Many people consider it to be a backup, while in fact it only protects against physical harddrive failures. It does not protect against accidental deletion, filesystem corruption, virusses of common causes like fire, lightning or a bad power supply causing multiple if not all drives in a system to die simultaneously.

The best setup is one which focuses on having a reliable backup. For most users a good setup would be to use a backup drive in another computer on the local network; such as a bedroom PC. Assume that PC is off most of the time but only on at some hours at which an automatic incremental backup takes place, then this would be a cheap but very reliable means of backup; since the backup shares as little risk with the primary data. Only disasters like flood, fire and excessive lightning would be able to kill your data. A risk that for most people is acceptable.

sub.mesa: I'm confused as to what your bottom line is for using WD drives, specifically in a unit like the UltraNAS. Are you actually saying they are less prone to catastrophic failure because of TLER? Sorry I'm a bit slow...
TLER or CCTL or ERC does not affect the reliability of the drive; whether it fails or not. It only affects the behavior of the drive when it encounters a bad sector; that is a piece of data that is unreadable. Normal drives without said functionality continue trying to read that data. This causes hardware RAID and Windows-specific software RAIDs to consider the entire drive as failed because it is not responding in time to the controller.

To remedy this problem, TLER is useful since it causes the drive to stop trying to recover, and leave it up to the controller on how to continue in such an event. This will solve the problem of disks that get 'kicked out' of the RAID array, an issue that frequently causes haywire on consumer RAID systems.

You either need TLER, or you don't. If you do not need TLER, then you do not want it, since it can be dangerous as well. You need TLER if your controller is strict about drive timeouts; this depends on the controller. I cannot say whether the UltraNAS expects TLER-enabled drives. You could ask your supplier whether that is the case. If it accepts normal consumer drives then you do not have to use TLER.

As in the case of ZFS, you do not need nor want TLER functionality. TLER is dangerous is the case where there is no redundant copy available on another disk in the RAID array and as such the disks recovery abilities are the only chance left to access that part of data. With a TLER drive stopping any recovery attempt in 7 seconds, chances are that you cannot read a sector which would have been readable with TLER functionality disabled.

Some people regard TLER and the likes (CCTL/ERC) as a 'dirty bugfix' to controllers which cannot tell the difference whether a drive is not responding because it has failed, or a drive that is not responding because it is performing recovery and the controller should just wait or let the drive know the data is not needed anymore by writing to the same sector. ZFS is quite smart and will write to drives that have an unreadable sector; this is the best behavior possible since it solves all problems; the unreadable sector on the drive and the problem of drives being kicked out of the array.

Hope this solves your confusion; if not please ask and I'll try to be more clear.
 

Balforth

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Yes -- thank you.

The UltraNAS NV+ does take consumer drives. My order still hasn't arrived... I've heard mixed reviews about using the WD EARS drives though. Before I lock myself into a long-term "bad" solution, I wanted to make sure I shouldn't send the drives back for something else.

It's true that I've had bad experiences with other drives in the past (like 15 years ago), which still forms my bias today towards WD, but I'm trying to avoid old man syndrome and keep an open mind :)
 

Emulex

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Jan 28, 2001
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hitachi makes great 512 sector drives . none of that 4096byte sector b/s. check it out.