WWII Question

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Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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The Naval bombardment only lasted 45 minutes. They had to move fast, if Germany had time to mobilize all the panzer divisions, it was gonna be bad news for the allies.

Unlike in the Pacific, where landing on a surrounded island allowed you to take your sweet time. There are stories of the Navy flat out changing the landscape of some islands to benifit the landing troops. Iwo Jima was bombarded for three straight days prior to the landing.
 

infoiltrator

Senior member
Feb 9, 2011
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The Soviet Union conspired with Nazi Germany, Stalin personally insured the early success of the German invasion. We will not talk about his purge of the officer corps or his own or conquered people.
The Soviet Union asked for and received great, perhaps staggering amounts of aid, more was lost running convoys.
Rations, medicine, TRUCKS (over 500,000 6x6s), jeeps, and machine tools.
Notoriously, anything unloaded in the Sovit Union was carefully remarked " Make in the USSR" or equivalent.
The USA fought a two front war, with major contibutions to allies (USSR, China, Britain, Australia, France, among others).

The pre-war purge of the Soviet military officers removed the officers responsible for logistics and planning.
The USSR traded bodies for time, then used numerical strength more than training.

The US land Artillery used ToT to devasting effect (all batteries engaged firing so that shells landed at one time, exactly).

OTOH the Pacific fleet was expert on shore bombardment by June 1944, They were not consulted for D-day.
 

Gintaras

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2000
1,892
1
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It's ignorant to look at it in emotional terms and deny the truth of the matter.

I agree....And what "Truth" your books tell you?

That US joined WWII in 1941 - worst time of war?
or 1944 - when outcome was obvious?

And where's The Truth of WWII?

Put aside books you have and face THE TRUE - US never won a war, US just participated in GENOCIDE - of native Americans - Indians.....

Does your books tell about it? Isn't IT TRUTH?
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
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US in WWII?

Most of what US did in WWII - helped USSR with arms in first days of WWII - fighter jets...etc...
Most americans don't even know or are even able to imagine, what russians and other nationals of that time of USSR went thru...to WIN A WAR...
My mom lived thru all that HELL...

When someone says something about US participation or "winning" WWII, I don't know - to laugh or to cry....

Yes, many Americans are ignorant of the extent of Russia's contribution to the war. If the Germans weren't fighting on two fronts it would have been much harder for the allies to win. But it should be stated that you can't directly correlate the casualties and civilian suffering that Russia endured with its actually contributions. It seems Russians overestimate their contributions even more than the average American.

But that is all irrelevant to this thread as is your original post. Why did you feel the need to come in here and post this troll response when the OP asked a very specific questions about D-day tactics?
 
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VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,188
2
76
I agree....And what "Truth" your books tell you?

That US joined WWII in 1941 - worst time of war?
or 1944 - when outcome was obvious?

And where's The Truth of WWII?

Put aside books you have and face THE TRUE - US never won a war, US just participated in GENOCIDE - of native Americans - Indians.....

Does your books tell about it? Isn't IT TRUTH?

The US was directly taking pressure off the Russians as early as 1941 in air raids, and in 1942 when they began operation torch in North Africa.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
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That US joined WWII in 1941 - worst time of war?
or 1944 - when outcome was obvious?

I'm sure it would have been a great comfort to Churchilll, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower to know that, all the time they were agonizing over the plans for the invasion of France, the outcome was already obvious.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
They still kept rommel in North Africa. That saved the Russians asses in itself.



mmmm.... I wouldn't go that far, either. Pulled away some supplies and divisions away from Hitler's Eastern front? Sure. Provided Entertainment and Target Practice for Rommel? Absolutely... Convinced our British and Free French Allies that we were a bunch of incompetent morons? Pretty Much. We only 'won' in Africa because we managed to strangle Rommel's supply lines. He had to leave to find gas :)

On the positive side - We (the USA) learned a LOT, which we applied in Italy and Europe. Net sum, though: While we clearly did the great majority of the work in the Pacific... In terms of Europe, our contribution was to Bankroll and Supply England {to keep them alive as a thorn in Hitler's side - the Battle of Britain was won by the time of Lend/Lease}, and to keep Russia fighting and grinding away Nazi power until we could get our sh*t together enough to combine with England and provide the Hammer to the Soviet's Anvil.


But ultimately: Generals Winter, Zhukov, and "Hitler", combined with Russian tenacity and 10's of millions sacrificed are what saved Russia's asses. ;) In the USA, we downplay that fact {...mostly from Cold War ideolology, IMHO. But Americans are also fairly self centered as a general rule}. But the truth of the matter is Germany's best fought and died on the steppes and in the ruins of Russian cities. Not in France or Belgium.



****


..US just participated in GENOCIDE - of native Americans - Indians....



The USA falls short on this topic, too: The British Genocide of Tasmania is still the only successful Genocide ever committed. 100% of the Islanders were killed.
 
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grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
6,204
1
0
Yes, many Americans are ignorant of the extent of Russia's contribution to the war. If the Germans weren't fighting on two fronts it would have been much harder for the allies to win. But it should be stated that you can't directly correlate the casualties and civilian suffering that Russia endured with its actually contributions. It seems Russians overestimate their contributions even more than the average American.

Gintaras is an ignorant troll, but the Russians did inflict 80% of all Nazi casualties. As Scotteq says in the previous post, the best of the German military was decimated in Russia.


The US was directly taking pressure off the Russians as early as 1941 in air raids, and in 1942 when they began operation torch in North Africa.

Not exactly. The USAAF wasn't really get up and running until late 42, early 43. Torch was in 42, but N Africa was always a sideshow to Hitler and the number of divisions diverted for that campaign and the later Italian one were not overwhelming.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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There are many good posters to our OP in terms of why our OP's thesis is basically wrong.

But I am somewhat surprised that no one mentioned the fact that Hitler went to sleep the night before, convinced that a allied D day landing on the Beaches of Normandy, was nothing but allied propaganda feint. Designed to divert German troops elsewhere when the real intended allied landing site would be anywhere else than Normandy.

And when local German authorities at the scene finally realized, in the early dawn hours of June 6'th, that Normandy was indeed the target, they lacked the authority and the autonomy to take effective counter measures. As no one in Berlin dared wake up the infallible Adolph Hitler. And when Hitler finally woke up much later, it was too late to deploy effective German tank divisions that might have been able turn the allied D-day landing into a failure.

As I am also surprised that no students of history noted the brilliance in planning of the Mulberry harbors that allowed the allied forces to land so much military supplies in so little time. Nor did did anyone note, the allied air superiority that rendered the German air force into a non factor.

But still, its the endless anomalies and fascinations of military history, for the want of a horse nail the battle and the war is lost.
 

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
6,204
1
0
<SNIP>Nor did did anyone note, the allied air superiority that rendered the German air force into a non factor.

To nitpick, it wasn't so much that the Allies had air superiority (which they did, of course), but that the Germans had pulled out nearly all their aircraft from France to defend Germany against the bomber offensive. From what I've read on D-Day there were only two Fw-190s and a few Ju-88s available to use against the invasion.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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To nitpick, it wasn't so much that the Allies had air superiority (which they did, of course), but that the Germans had pulled out nearly all their aircraft from France to defend Germany against the bomber offensive. From what I've read on D-Day there were only two Fw-190s and a few Ju-88s available to use against the invasion.
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The validity of your nitpick is correct, as you and other posters noted , while I was typing my response, that the Russians were already closing in on Berlin. If nothing else, D-day only sped up the allied forces, but still the Russians were first to Berlin.

As Hitler was a equal opportunity Hater as he famously remarked the Slavic people should be a Hellot race, good only for slave labor.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
Just look at our naval bombardments of the Japanese held islands. IIRC, it never had that much lethal effect on dug in defenders.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
mmmm.... I wouldn't go that far, either. Pulled away some supplies and divisions away from Hitler's Eastern front? Sure. Provided Entertainment and Target Practice for Rommel? Absolutely... Convinced our British and Free French Allies that we were a bunch of incompetent morons? Pretty Much. We only 'won' in Africa because we managed to strangle Rommel's supply lines. He had to leave to find gas :)

On the positive side - We (the USA) learned a LOT, which we applied in Italy and Europe. Net sum, though: While we clearly did the great majority of the work in the Pacific... In terms of Europe, our contribution was to Bankroll and Supply England {to keep them alive as a thorn in Hitler's side - the Battle of Britain was won by the time of Lend/Lease}, and to keep Russia fighting and grinding away Nazi power until we could get our sh*t together enough to combine with England and provide the Hammer to the Soviet's Anvil.


But ultimately: Generals Winter, Zhukov, and "Hitler", combined with Russian tenacity and 10's of millions sacrificed are what saved Russia's asses. ;) In the USA, we downplay that fact {...mostly from Cold War ideolology, IMHO. But Americans are also fairly self centered as a general rule}. But the truth of the matter is Germany's best fought and died on the steppes and in the ruins of Russian cities. Not in France or Belgium.

I agree with much of this, but the assessment of Africa I don't think is entirely accurate. For one thing, Rommel, with a smaller force and much more limited supplies, had just finished kicking the British-led allies all the way across the continent. Patton's forces commanded a considerable level of respect amongst the allies. Remember, the early days of US forces in Africa, they were under British command, and had horrendous equipment. It wasn't until Patton was given command of II Corps to relieve Fredendall that the true ability of Patton and his forces was fully unleashed. The only earlier victories previous to this by the allies in Africa was Compass, and that was against a truly incompetent force, the Italians, and a well-organized push by the Anzac forces (8th Army IIRC?), which briefly succeeded in causing Rommel to reorganize before he was able to steamroll almost to Cairo.

It's also worth noting that not only did Patton not disappoint in North Africa, but he proved to be so formidable and ferocious that the German general corps greatly feared his presence later in the invasion of Europe. There was certainly some inexperience and incompetence at the lower levels, compounded by inferior equipment that marred the early days, but there was certainly nothing for anyone to look down on. The British had taken a solid pounding overall already, with a huge number of failures until Montgomery came in and truly stepped up their game tactically and strategically. Montgomery perhaps got a shade too much credit though, as the later boondoggle Market Garden proved to be an ambitious but flawed mess.

Overall the British command outside of Montgomery weren't overly fond of Patton, but his results commanded respect regardless. I think they underestimated his actual organizational and tactical skills, put off by his blustering, yelling, and rabid focus on attacking the enemy.

Anyway, I think this sums him up well.

The French proclaimed him an equal to. Napoleon, and these were the views from his adversaries :

Patton as viewed by the enemy

From 1943 on, it was clear that a consensus existed in the German Army officer corps that of all Allied ground force commanders, the enemy general they feared the most was Patton. Adolf Hitler himself was impressed by Patton, reportedly calling him "that crazy cowboy general", and "the most dangerous man [the Allies] have." Erwin Rommel credited Patton with executing "the most astonishing achievement in mobile warfare." Generaloberst Alfred Jodl, chief of staff of the German Army, stated that Patton "was the American Guderian. He was very bold and preferred large movements. He took big risks and won big successes." Generalfeldmarschall Albert Kesselring noted that "Patton had developed tank warfare into an art, and understood how to handle tanks brilliantly in the field. I feel compelled, therefore, to compare him with Generalfeldmarschall Rommel, who likewise had mastered the art of tank warfare. Both of them had a kind of second sight in regard to this type of warfare." Referring to the escape of the Afrika Korps Panzerarmee after the battle of El Alamein, General Fritz Bayerlein opined that "I do not think that General Patton would let us get away so easily." Oberstleutnant Horst Freiherr von Wangenheim, operations officer of the 277th Volksgrenadier Division, stated that "General Patton is the most feared general on all fronts. [His] tactics are daring and unpredictable...He is the most modern general and the best commander of [combined] armored and infantry forces." After the war, General der Infanterie Günther Blumentritt revealed that "We regarded Patton extremely highly, as the most aggressive Panzer-General of the Allies. A man of incredible initiative and lightning-like action." General der Panzertruppen Hasso von Manteuffel, who had fought both Soviet and Anglo-American tank commanders, agreed: "Patton! No doubt about this. He was a brilliant panzer army commander."

In an interview conducted for Stars and Stripes just after his capture, Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt summed up the predominant German view of the American general: "Patton," Rundstedt concluded simply, "he is your best."
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,188
2
76
There are many good posters to our OP in terms of why our OP's thesis is basically wrong.

But I am somewhat surprised that no one mentioned the fact that Hitler went to sleep the night before, convinced that a allied D day landing on the Beaches of Normandy, was nothing but allied propaganda feint. Designed to divert German troops elsewhere when the real intended allied landing site would be anywhere else than Normandy.

And when local German authorities at the scene finally realized, in the early dawn hours of June 6'th, that Normandy was indeed the target, they lacked the authority and the autonomy to take effective counter measures. As no one in Berlin dared wake up the infallible Adolph Hitler. And when Hitler finally woke up much later, it was too late to deploy effective German tank divisions that might have been able turn the allied D-day landing into a failure.

As I am also surprised that no students of history noted the brilliance in planning of the Mulberry harbors that allowed the allied forces to land so much military supplies in so little time. Nor did did anyone note, the allied air superiority that rendered the German air force into a non factor.

But still, its the endless anomalies and fascinations of military history, for the want of a horse nail the battle and the war is lost.

The D-Day landings in Normandy would probably have not gone so well if Rommel had been allowed to position his tank divisions where he wanted to. He wanted them dispersed along the coast to have them on hand at a moments notice, but difficult to target from the air. Hitler decided to move them inland to have the ability to allow the allies to break out and then trap them in a pincer movement. Fortunately we'll never know if Rommel would have been able to throw the Allies back into the sea if he had gotten his way. A good thing for many of our fathers and grandfathers.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
The D-Day landings in Normandy would probably have not gone so well if Rommel had been allowed to position his tank divisions where he wanted to. He wanted them dispersed along the coast to have them on hand at a moments notice, but difficult to target from the air. Hitler decided to move them inland to have the ability to allow the allies to break out and then trap them in a pincer movement. Fortunately we'll never know if Rommel would have been able to throw the Allies back into the sea if he had gotten his way. A good thing for many of our fathers and grandfathers.

Yep, and an obscure freelance spy codenamed Garbo made it all possible. He was turned down by the British Intelligence agencies on multiple occassions, but they finally realized his value and his contributions made all that possible. :)
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
There are many good posters to our OP in terms of why our OP's thesis is basically wrong.

But I am somewhat surprised that no one mentioned the fact that Hitler went to sleep the night before, convinced that a allied D day landing on the Beaches of Normandy, was nothing but allied propaganda feint. Designed to divert German troops elsewhere when the real intended allied landing site would be anywhere else than Normandy.

And when local German authorities at the scene finally realized, in the early dawn hours of June 6'th, that Normandy was indeed the target, they lacked the authority and the autonomy to take effective counter measures. As no one in Berlin dared wake up the infallible Adolph Hitler. And when Hitler finally woke up much later, it was too late to deploy effective German tank divisions that might have been able turn the allied D-day landing into a failure.

As I am also surprised that no students of history noted the brilliance in planning of the Mulberry harbors that allowed the allied forces to land so much military supplies in so little time. Nor did did anyone note, the allied air superiority that rendered the German air force into a non factor.

But still, its the endless anomalies and fascinations of military history, for the want of a horse nail the battle and the war is lost.

I did, in post#9, those divisions were kept in reserve to specifically rush to the invasion point and try and stop it on the beach head..