WWI hand to hand fighting Training VS. Today's

[Train]

A knife or bayonet makes more sense for a soldier than breaking out the MMA skillz

Fun Fact: The MCMAP program featured in the second video has the motto: "One Mind, Any Weapon."

They have training around using a rifle with and without bayonet, with knives, helmets, sticks, fists, elbows, boots... or basically any weapon of opportunity.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Bayonet training is separate from hand-to-hand. It is taught only as another form of 'armed' combat, used when solidly mounted to a rifle- which, even when devoid of ammo, is still a formidable close-quarters weapon.

A knife on its own...notsomuch. Give one guy the rifle and the other the bayonet, and my money is going to be on a buttstock knockout.

I am but a mere civilian fool, ignorant of many things


That said, I have read enough to know that a good soldier is much more than "guy with a gun", as they are motivated, resourceful, and smart ...

 

[phucheneh]

That reminds me that I watched Jack Reacher recently and saw my favorite improvised weapon ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrcE5oLmJqE#t=117

Say what you will about Tom Cruise...but beating a man's skull in with another man's skull is pretty great. :awe:

I am but a mere civilian fool, ignorant of many things


That said, I have read enough to know that a good soldier is much more than "guy with a gun", as they are motivated, resourceful, and smart ...

I was just sharing my own experience in BCT. It's not like they trained us to be knife-fighting self-defense experts. It was just: Here's how to grapple with someone a bit (they emphasized that boxing is useless in real life) and once it very quickly goes to the ground, here's how to choke him or break his arm. But, to try and avoid such a situation from occurring, you first learn: So, hey, that thing shoots bullets generally works best when it has bullets, but in a pinch, it's a decent 7lb club and you can totally stick this pointy thing on the end.

BUTTSTROKE TO THE HEAD! SLASH! STAB AND TWIST! (yeah, they actually did emphasize that a successful stab should be followed by a good entrail-stirring)

 

[SP33Demon]

Our grandpas weren't slouches when it came to hand to hand.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Huh.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bayonet-charge-foils-enemy-ambush

It's almost as though weird circumstances demand creative solutions and narrowing your training regimen too much limits your tactical options.

Hand-to-hand or martial arts training is also a good way to build confidence and morale, which are important.

 

[unokitty]

I was just sharing my own experience in BCT. It's not like they trained us to be knife-fighting self-defense experts. It was just: Here's how to grapple with someone a bit (they emphasized that boxing is useless in real life) and once it very quickly goes to the ground, here's how to choke him or break his arm. But, to try and avoid such a situation from occurring, you first learn: So, hey, that thing shoots bullets generally works best when it has bullets, but in a pinch, it's a decent 7lb club and you can totally stick this pointy thing on the end.

BUTTSTROKE TO THE HEAD! SLASH! STAB AND TWIST! (yeah, they actually did emphasize that a successful stab should be followed by a good entrail-stirring)

We had a lot of practice on the bayonet. They take you about 500 men at a time, actually between 300 and 500 depending on who has bayonet practice that day. They line you up in rows of 100 and you have all your field gear on--your packs and weapons--and the bayonet with the six inch steel head. In front of you on this platform is one of the drill instructors and he's got a megaphone and he shouts you through the various moves. You know like "On guard, ahh" and all this kind of stuff. You have to growl with each movement you make. This is to intimidate the enemy and every five minutes or so he'll say, "What's the spirit of the bayonet?" and everyone shouts, "To kill, to kill." And they're serious....

They give you about 12 hours of hand-to-hand combat which is a cross between Judo and Karate and boxing and, once again, you growl with each movement. They tell you it's very important that you growl. In the first place, it reduces you to an animal... I don't know how much hand-to-hand combat I learned, but I developed a damn intimidating growl....

Got the training. Never got the T-shirt.

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army, 69-71

 

[phucheneh]

I remember the chanting, but I had forgotten about the 'war growls' or whatever. We just did that during bayonet training, though. Not hand-to-hand.

Which is good, because I fight like shit. I remember that I (one of the biggest guys in the platoon) got matched up with a little tiny guy that was so much more high-speed than me. For the lulz.

That motherfucker came at me like a goddamn spidermonkey and I ended up eating sawdust.

The only screams during that were from the onlookers. It was like a particular lively Mexican cockfight. There may have been betting. But mostly just cheering and taunts and occasionally useful advice. Like 'CHECK HIS FUCKING OIL!*'

(*thumb in the butt)

 

[unokitty]

I remember the chanting, but I had forgotten about the 'war growls' or whatever. We just did that during bayonet training, though. Not hand-to-hand...

The only screams during that were from the onlookers. It was like a particular lively Mexican cockfight. There may have been betting. But mostly just cheering and taunts and occasionally useful advice. Like 'CHECK HIS FUCKING OIL!*'

(*thumb in the butt)

Sounds like puggle stick training... We did a lot of two and three on one...

Nothing like getting ready for lunch by beating the crap out of your buddy...

Uno

 

[Bateluer]

Hand to hand is totally useless today and a big waste of time. IF a marine is in a fist fight with a Taliban today he screwed up bad.

Lol, there's not a single military member thats been in an active combat role that would say hand to hand combat training is a waste of time.

training film from WWI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga4zLsMmkE0


Today
http://youtu.be/fOunJJm-0vc

I'm fairly sure a 2014 US Marine would utterly demolish a WW1 US dough boy. :/ 80 years of development will do that.

 

[MarkXIX]

Really? So there's no way he could get surprised by someone hiding while clearing a building or something, and if he did, he screwed up? Um, no.

Not to mention the fact that it tends to build confidence, agility, and helps "civilians" who join the military to overcome barriers to engaging another human being in a manner that typically defies their "fight or flight" mechanism.

It's as much about building confident warriors as it is ever actually engaging the enemy in fisticuffs.

 

[alkemyst]

I remember the chanting, but I had forgotten about the 'war growls' or whatever. We just did that during bayonet training, though. Not hand-to-hand.

Which is good, because I fight like shit. I remember that I (one of the biggest guys in the platoon) got matched up with a little tiny guy that was so much more high-speed than me. For the lulz.

That motherfucker came at me like a goddamn spidermonkey and I ended up eating sawdust.

The only screams during that were from the onlookers. It was like a particular lively Mexican cockfight. There may have been betting. But mostly just cheering and taunts and occasionally useful advice. Like 'CHECK HIS FUCKING OIL!*'

(*thumb in the butt)

I understand your SN now...Fuck In A.

That really sucks for you.

Oh wait, did you have to do that too?

 

[MongGrel]

... the stupid shit you read on the internet.

Yep.

 

[phucheneh]

I understand your SN now...Fuck In A.

That really sucks for you.

Oh wait, did you have to do that too?

I don't even lift, bro.

 

[MongGrel]

Pugil stick training has seemed to have gone down hill over the years.

I'm just saying

From what I've seen the hand to hand without has actually gotten better.

Where I was we had a Sgt Maj was the champ of Okinawa in Judo one year that actually took the NCO's out and was teaching us all at one time in sessions.

I joined up during the time Argo was made when they had the hostages before Reagan came in.

We had actually about 4 Series going through at the time instead of the usual 3.

Doing the Bridge over Troubled water 1 on 1 thing at the time we had about 300 guys with Pugil sticks duking it out, we couldn't even finish it at the time as the schedule was over loaded with an extra platoon training, but I was one of the final 6

 

[Ackmed]

fail.

the battle for falluja is a example of why its not a waste of time.

Also, conditioning is a HUGE part of the MCMAP program. It's pretty fucking brutal. Being in better shape is always a good thing.

 

[sourceninja]

Back when I worked at a college we had a campus day where they brought in one of those inflatable machines where you would fight with pugil sticks on platforms.

The students thought it would be fun to organize staff vs students. I cleaned up all the students and was feeling pretty spiffy about my 'skill'. The president of the college asked to go a round against me and I thought it would be a good time to 'get the boss'. That man beat the crap out of me in about 2 seconds. Jab the gut and a blast across the face. That was the end of me.

Turned out he was an old army ranger....

 

[bas1c]

Not sure if it's just me...but whenever I see old footage of anything like fighting, sports, etc. it just seems like they were less athletic and less coordinated back then than now.

 

[MongGrel]

Back when I worked at a college we had a campus day where they brought in one of those inflatable machines where you would fight with pugil sticks on platforms.

The students thought it would be fun to organize staff vs students. I cleaned up all the students and was feeling pretty spiffy about my 'skill'. The president of the college asked to go a round against me and I thought it would be a good time to 'get the boss'. That man beat the crap out of me in about 2 seconds. Jab the gut and a blast across the face. That was the end of me.

Turned out he was an old army ranger....

:biggrin:

Marines, Seals, etc etc bust each others nuts a lot in general, bullshitting around.

I have a lot of respect for all, Rangers are pretty much kick ass.

 

[MongGrel]

Not sure if it's just me...but whenever I see old footage of anything like fighting, sports, etc. it just seems like they were less athletic and less coordinated back then than now.

Do something like storm a pillbox on a beach landing like in WWII or dive bomb a Japanese carrier with a lot of destroyers escorting it, or attacking across a field a bunch of Nazis and getting your knees shot up and still going on, like some of my older relatives did who are dead or almost there without shitting yourself and come back and talk to me later.

Uncle Ralph was the one got his knees shot up, he invited me up when my dad died and went to the funeral and I had a new job and just didn't have the time.

He is a very freaking great guy and as humble about anything as you can get, was my favorite Uncle growing up.

There are a few I didn't even mention.

 

[bas1c]

Do something like storm a pillbox on a beach landing like in WWII or dive bomb a Japanese carrier with a lot of destroyers escorting it, or attacking across a field a bunch of Nazis and getting your knees shot up and still going on, like some of my older relatives did who are dead or almost there without shitting yourself and come back and talk to me later.

Uncle Ralph was the one got his knees shot up, he invited me up when my dad died and went to the funeral and I had a new job and just didn't have the time.

He is a very freaking great guy and as humble about anything as you can get, was my favorite Uncle growing up.

There are a few I didn't even mention.

Wasn't trying to say anything derogatory, especially not to veterans. Not sure why you are taking it so personally. It's just an observation and opinion. Like when I see football and basketball clips from the 50's and 60's, they just move different than today's athletes.

 

[MongGrel]

Our grandpas weren't slouches when it came to hand to hand.

My biggest Grandpa wasn't even in the military in WWII, though a many, many of the family was.

He was a Tool and Die-maker at Chrysler building tanks at the time.

And even when he was old and I went into the trade he was strong as hell, after I was in my apprenticeship one of the first things he asked me after I met him after that was "show me your hands"

He felt for callouses.

He seemed to approve, he was old school.

He was a big guy, I was still amazed at how strong he was even just before he died, that man could just about shake your hand and break it if he wanted. They had to stop the nurse going to his house at the time from going their when he got older, she was afraid she would get her neck snapped more or less if she pissed him off and he didn't like her going over after the the Alzheimers got really bad.

 

[MongGrel]

Wasn't trying to say anything derogatory, especially not to veterans. Not sure why you are taking it so personally. It's just an observation and opinion. Like when I see football and basketball clips from the 50's and 60's, they just move different than today's athletes.

KK