WTF

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: michaels
Yeah I agree if they are legal.

The whole idea of this bill is to reform or reset the already 12 million some illegal immigrants that are in the country right now. The instate tuition thing is part of that bill. It's a double edge deal in the fact that if the senate dosen't pass legalazing the immigrants at least they could pass something that will allow them in state tuition. Meaning have the same opportunaty as others. If we legalize them they can pay in state tuition as well. So either way it makes no difference.

And it is tantamount to amnesty for illegally invading our country; come here illegally and you shall be rewarded. :thumbsdown::|:thumbsdown:

Agreed. The amnesty bill in 1986 I believe has fueled this. After this amnesty program we will face 100 mill illegals in 20 years. Ugh.

Oh and I am absolutely LIVID at my homestate Senater - McCain. I've watched him turn into a full blown LOON in the last 15 years, but I have more respect for a loon who stands strong on his/her own issues. But the flip flop on this issue by him...jesus. And he KNOWS the damage of open borders being from AZ.

Only 2 1/2 months ago: WASHINGTON -- Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., today opposed the concept of "amnesty" for illegal immigrants, saying that such a policy would only attract more unlawful entrants.

"Our first and foremost obligation is to secure our borders," McCain said. "We are in a war on terror. We have people who may want to cross our borders and do bad things, so the first priority is to secure our borders."

Last week cozying up with the walrus himself - Uncle Ted: With the White House's blessing, the Senate has reached a deal on immigration. And Sen. John McCain has handed his opponents for the Republican nomination a mighty club to wield against him -- if they choose to use it.

Bastage.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: jrenz
Breakdown of all the travesties in the new bill

Nice :thumbsup:

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: michaels
Yeah I agree if they are legal.

The whole idea of this bill is to reform or reset the already 12 million some illegal immigrants that are in the country right now. The instate tuition thing is part of that bill. It's a double edge deal in the fact that if the senate dosen't pass legalazing the immigrants at least they could pass something that will allow them in state tuition. Meaning have the same opportunaty as others. If we legalize them they can pay in state tuition as well. So either way it makes no difference.

And it is tantamount to amnesty for illegally invading our country; come here illegally and you shall be rewarded. :thumbsdown::|:thumbsdown:

Agreed. The amnesty bill in 1986 I believe has fueled this. After this amnesty program we will face 100 mill illegals in 20 years. Ugh.

Oh and I am absolutely LIVID at my homestate Senater - McCain. I've watched him turn into a full blown LOON in the last 15 years, but I have more respect for a loon who stands strong on his/her own issues. But the flip flop on this issue by him...jesus. And he KNOWS the damage of open borders being from AZ.

Only 2 1/2 months ago: WASHINGTON -- Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., today opposed the concept of "amnesty" for illegal immigrants, saying that such a policy would only attract more unlawful entrants.

"Our first and foremost obligation is to secure our borders," McCain said. "We are in a war on terror. We have people who may want to cross our borders and do bad things, so the first priority is to secure our borders."

Last week cozying up with the walrus himself - Uncle Ted: With the White House's blessing, the Senate has reached a deal on immigration. And Sen. John McCain has handed his opponents for the Republican nomination a mighty club to wield against him -- if they choose to use it.

Bastage.

McCain has turned into such a suck ass!

 

[dahunan]

They will all become political science majors and join their fellow criminals in US Govt

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: dahunan
They will all become political science majors and join their fellow criminals in US Govt

 

[OutHouse]

please point out one country in the world where people can enter illegally, and demand and GET free health care, free education, free social services, free food (school lunchs), free housing, their foreign language printed all over the place. reduced cost for a whole slew of other services. have laws bent to to them as in being given much lighter sentences in court.... i could go on but im getting too pissed.

ill point first.

the USA

our country is going down the sh*tter and our f*cking government is doing it with a smile on thier face.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Citrix
please point out one country in the world where people can enter illegally, and demand and GET free health care, free education, free social services, free food (school lunchs), free housing, their foreign language printed all over the place. reduced cost for a whole slew of other services. have laws bent to to them as in being given much lighter sentences in court.... i could go on but im getting too pissed.

ill point first.

the USA

our country is going down the sh*tter and our f*cking government is doing it with a smile on thier face.

I agree. Another side effect is people get so compacent about illegal entry they think it's OK in other parts of the world, and just by being an American citezen somehow grants them special treatment. One example. I have a friend who is a biker (bicycle, not motorcycle) and a couple years ago while biking through SE asia, he inadvertantly followed a path that led into China. Now, if you are visiting China, you are REQUIRED to have a visiter's visa. Alot of countries will allow you to enter for say 90 days without a visa, but not China at that time. Anyway, he was picked up by the PRC police and taken into custody. My friend is from WA state, and it took negotiations by Christine Gregoire (WA state gov'na) to get him home. WA is pretty liberal and the chatter on talk radio was Why didnt China allow him access to the embassy? There was such outrage they held him "for such an innocent and small matter". Well, the bottom line is, if you enter illegally into ANY other country save USA you have ZERO rights. They can do whatever they want. It's their land.

 

[RiverDog]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
To hell with them , they should get nothing except a one way ticket back to Juarez or where ever the hell they came from.

:beer: And they should be paying for the freaking ticket, not me!

 

[Aisengard]

if you enter illegally into ANY other country save USA you have ZERO rights. They can do whatever they want. It's their land.

Well, then I'm glad we don't live in such a barbaric society where we kidnap displaced bicyclists.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

if you enter illegally into ANY other country save USA you have ZERO rights. They can do whatever they want. It's their land.

Well, then I'm glad we don't live in such a barbaric society where we kidnap displaced bicyclists.

Why the disparaging remarks? Did you completely miss my point? Try and get over yourself. And where do you get kidnapping out of this? My friend broke the law of the land he was in. What dont you understand about this?

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Aisengard

if you enter illegally into ANY other country save USA you have ZERO rights. They can do whatever they want. It's their land.

Well, then I'm glad we don't live in such a barbaric society where we kidnap displaced bicyclists.

Why the disparaging remarks? Did you completely miss my point? Try and get over yourself. And where do you get kidnapping out of this? My friend broke the law of the land he was in. What dont you understand about this?

So because he unknowingly entered China's unguarded and probably unmarked borders, he absolutely deserved to be held and jailed and had whatever the country want done to him, and had to contact his Senator who actually had to negotiate with China for his freedom? I never knew you had such high regard for such idiotic things. Just because some country has it as a law doesn't make it right, even if it is 'their land'. I assume you'd be okay if they tortured him, huh? Sheesh, all bets are off when talking about illegal immigration with some people. If there are a lot more people with your type of thinking in the world then this thing we called globalism is absolutely screwed.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Aisengard

if you enter illegally into ANY other country save USA you have ZERO rights. They can do whatever they want. It's their land.

Well, then I'm glad we don't live in such a barbaric society where we kidnap displaced bicyclists.

Why the disparaging remarks? Did you completely miss my point? Try and get over yourself. And where do you get kidnapping out of this? My friend broke the law of the land he was in. What dont you understand about this?

So because he unknowingly entered China's unguarded and probably unmarked borders, he absolutely deserved to be held and jailed and had whatever the country want done to him, and had to contact his Senator who actually had to negotiate with China for his freedom? I never knew you had such high regard for such idiotic things. Just because some country has it as a law doesn't make it right, even if it is 'their land'. I assume you'd be okay if they tortured him, huh? Sheesh, all bets are off when talking about illegal immigration with some people. If there are a lot more people with your type of thinking in the world then this thing we called globalism is absolutely screwed.

Man youre a dolt. Let me remind you of my point, which you glaringly missed. "Another side effect is people get so complacent about illegal entry they think it's OK in other parts of the world, and just by being an American citizen somehow grants them special treatment." I see this every single time I travel outside of the US, which is two or three times a year for the last 8 or 9 years.

Oh and BTW I never said anything about a Senator. Reading comprehension 0/10. Quit twisting my words and actually read what I wrote. I say what I mean, not mean what I say.

 

[RiverDog]

So because he unknowingly entered China's unguarded and probably unmarked borders, he absolutely deserved to be held and jailed and had whatever the country want done to him, and had to contact his Senator who actually had to negotiate with China for his freedom? I never knew you had such high regard for such idiotic things. Just because some country has it as a law doesn't make it right, even if it is 'their land'. I assume you'd be okay if they tortured him, huh? Sheesh, all bets are off when talking about illegal immigration with some people. If there are a lot more people with your type of thinking in the world then this thing we called globalism is absolutely screwed.[/quote]

It may or may not be right but it is their law.

 

[Aisengard]

"Another side effect is people get so complacent about illegal entry they think it's OK in other parts of the world, and just by being an American citizen somehow grants them special treatment." I see this every single time I travel outside of the US, which is two or three times a year for the last 8 or 9 years.

I'm sorry if you think it's actually right and okay to jail and 'do whatever they want' to people who unknowingly enter their country, when the country actually has good diplomatic relations with the other person's home country. Who ever thought specifically Americans deserve special treatment? Never heard it from me. No one should be jailed and held just because they crossed a border, unless the countries were at war. The most that should be done with them is to deposit them right back where they came from at the trespasser's (monetary) expense. And that's my point. I'm glad I don't live in a country where the law is to jail people and do whatever the country wants to them for crossing a border.

Oh and BTW I never said anything about a Senator. Reading comprehension 0/10. Quit twisting my words and actually read what I wrote.

You're right, you wrote governor. Doesn't really change anything we were talking about, but nice grasping at any rate.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: michaels
Yeah I agree if they are legal.

People just don't get it!


We Americans citizens do not have any obligation whatsoever to any foreign person who comes here be it legally or illegally to provide them with anything including a job, free education, welfare or any other free government benefits. These services are designated for our citizen?s period and I am getting sick and tired of being forced by my own government to bleed money for these leeches.

It is in no way Americans responsibility and we should as least get the courtesy to having a choice if we do. I suggest at tax time and you file your return you get a check box on how much if anything you would like to donate of your tax return to go to a free stuff for foreigners fund and if theirs not enough funds to go around , then tough they can damn well go home.

 

[Aisengard]

We Americans citizens do not have any obligation whatsoever to any foreign person who come here be it legally or illegally to provide them with anything including a job, free education, welfare or any other free government benefits.

Wrong. We as Americans have an obligation to pay our taxes. It's up to the government to decide what to do with them, and that includes welfare and the EITC for citizens of this country. Do you differentiate between legal immigrants who are granted citizenship and your fellow 'native' American citizen? Boy I sure hope not.

This whole damn issue is being way, way, way oversimplified, and people are taking it way too personally. Personally, for me, I find it infinitely more insulting that the Bush administration flat-out lied (or was completely ignorant, either one) about going to war in Iraq. And that has cost America tons more net capital than anything these illegal immigrants have done.

What people don't understand is the seriousness of the 'crimes' of most of these people. There is not much of a difference between a legal immigrant and an illegal one who didn't go through the whole inane process of citizenship. Where is everyone getting the data that illegal immigrants 'don't pay taxes'? Of course they pay taxes. There is no "I'm an illegal immigrant and therefore don't have to pay taxes" checkmark on your income tax forms, or when you go to the store and buy things with sales tax applied to them. The only reason these folks wouldn't pay taxes is because they don't make enough money to actually have to pay taxes. Yes, they're not technically citizens, but I ask you, what the hell is the damn difference between an immigrant making $30K a year who's a citizen and collecting the EITC, welfare, etc. and one who isn't? These aren't vicious tax evaders, trust me, the IRS makes sure they track down everyone who gets the EITC, welfare, etc. and doesn't pay their taxes. It would be such an easy fix if that weren't the case.

Honestly, I think for anyone to be able to talk of 'citizenship' and those who deserve it or not, should take and pass the damn test themselves. You'd be surprised (or not) at how many people wouldn't pass the test. And that being the only difference between being a citizen and not, well, it's all pretty silly from a pure philosophical perspective.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

"Another side effect is people get so complacent about illegal entry they think it's OK in other parts of the world, and just by being an American citizen somehow grants them special treatment." I see this every single time I travel outside of the US, which is two or three times a year for the last 8 or 9 years.

I'm sorry if you think it's actually right and okay to jail and 'do whatever they want' to people who unknowingly enter their country, when the country actually has good diplomatic relations with the other person's home country. Who ever thought specifically Americans deserve special treatment? Never heard it from me. No one should be jailed and held just because they crossed a border, unless the countries were at war. The most that should be done with them is to deposit them right back where they came from at the trespasser's (monetary) expense. And that's my point. I'm glad I don't live in a country where the law is to jail people and do whatever the country wants to them for crossing a border.

Oh and BTW I never said anything about a Senator. Reading comprehension 0/10. Quit twisting my words and actually read what I wrote.

You're right, you wrote governor. Doesn't really change anything we were talking about, but nice grasping at any rate.

Since we're back on topic, I'd like to add a few things.

It really doesnt matter what we think is wrong or right. What is, is. Those of us who actually travel outside the US >generally< understand when you leave America, American laws disappear when you set foot in another country. It is up to the traveller to know and understand the laws of the land they are travelling to. Also, as I've said, >my< experience in my travels has proven to me some Americans DO in fact think having a black passport entitles them to special privleges. I've met people like this overseas. The reality is, it doesnt. In fact, in some cases, it targets you. When I travel overseas I typically dont carry my US passport with me unless I absolutely have to. It's better they think Im European. Again, this is based on my and other's experience. Whether you think it is right or wrong is irrelavent. As I've said, what is, is. Another example is Mexico. Living in Phoenix I make several trips to Mexico. I'm a diabetic and use insulin. Police in Mexico can stop you wherever you are and search you for no reason at all, and often do. You could be eating at a restaurant or walking down the street. A couple of years ago I was stopped and searched. Of course they found my diabetes kit which included insulin and a syringe. I was then taken, in handcuffs, to the magistrate and held overnight for "the transportation and using" of drugs, which is of course false. Didnt matter. A syringe is contraband. Had I had a precription for it, I would have been let go. But their laws say no prescription and off to jail you go. Now, needless to say, I carry a prescription. But again, it doesnt matter what we think is right or wrong, that's their law to enforce however they see fit.

In response to your comment "Who ever thought specifically Americans deserve special treatment? Never heard it from me."...I never implied you said nor thought it. You have made your opinion clear.

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Aisengard

"Another side effect is people get so complacent about illegal entry they think it's OK in other parts of the world, and just by being an American citizen somehow grants them special treatment." I see this every single time I travel outside of the US, which is two or three times a year for the last 8 or 9 years.

I'm sorry if you think it's actually right and okay to jail and 'do whatever they want' to people who unknowingly enter their country, when the country actually has good diplomatic relations with the other person's home country. Who ever thought specifically Americans deserve special treatment? Never heard it from me. No one should be jailed and held just because they crossed a border, unless the countries were at war. The most that should be done with them is to deposit them right back where they came from at the trespasser's (monetary) expense. And that's my point. I'm glad I don't live in a country where the law is to jail people and do whatever the country wants to them for crossing a border.

Oh and BTW I never said anything about a Senator. Reading comprehension 0/10. Quit twisting my words and actually read what I wrote.

You're right, you wrote governor. Doesn't really change anything we were talking about, but nice grasping at any rate.

Since we're back on topic, I'd like to add a few things.

It really doesnt matter what we think is wrong or right. What is, is. Those of us who actually travel outside the US >generally< understand when you leave America, American laws disappear when you set foot in another country. It is up to the traveller to know and understand the laws of the land they are travelling to. Also, as I've said, >my< experience in my travels has proven to me some Americans DO in fact think having a black passport entitles them to special privleges. I've met people like this overseas. The reality is, it doesnt. In fact, in some cases, it targets you. When I travel overseas I typically dont carry my US passport with me unless I absolutely have to. It's better they think Im European. Again, this is based on my and other's experience. Whether you think it is right or wrong is irrelavent. As I've said, what is, is. Another example is Mexico. Living in Phoenix I make several trips to Mexico. I'm a diabetic and use insulin. Police in Mexico can stop you wherever you are and search you for no reason at all, and often do. You could be eating at a restaurant or walking down the street. A couple of years ago I was stopped and searched. Of course they found my diabetes kit which included insulin and a syringe. I was then taken, in handcuffs, to the magistrate and held overnight for "the transportation and using" of drugs, which is of course false. Didnt matter. A syringe is contraband. Had I had a precription for it, I would have been let go. But their laws say no prescription and off to jail you go. Now, needless to say, I carry a prescription. But again, it doesnt matter what we think is right or wrong, that's their law to enforce however they see fit.

In response to your comment "Who ever thought specifically Americans deserve special treatment? Never heard it from me."...I never implied you said nor thought it. You have made your opinion clear.

Alright, I agree with you. I'm just saying I wouldn't support those laws in my country.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

We Americans citizens do not have any obligation whatsoever to any foreign person who come here be it legally or illegally to provide them with anything including a job, free education, welfare or any other free government benefits.

Wrong. We as Americans have an obligation to pay our taxes. It's up to the government to decide what to do with them, and that includes welfare and the EITC for citizens of this country. Do you differentiate between legal immigrants who are granted citizenship and your fellow 'native' American citizen? Boy I sure hope not.

This whole damn issue is being way, way, way oversimplified, and people are taking it way too personally. Personally, for me, I find it infinitely more insulting that the Bush administration flat-out lied (or was completely ignorant, either one) about going to war in Iraq. And that has cost America tons more net capital than anything these illegal immigrants have done.

What people don't understand is the seriousness of the 'crimes' of most of these people. There is not much of a difference between a legal immigrant and an illegal one who didn't go through the whole inane process of citizenship. Where is everyone getting the data that illegal immigrants 'don't pay taxes'? Of course they pay taxes. There is no "I'm an illegal immigrant and therefore don't have to pay taxes" checkmark on your income tax forms, or when you go to the store and buy things with sales tax applied to them. The only reason these folks wouldn't pay taxes is because they don't make enough money to actually have to pay taxes. Yes, they're not technically citizens, but I ask you, what the hell is the damn difference between an immigrant making $30K a year who's a citizen and collecting the EITC, welfare, etc. and one who isn't? These aren't vicious tax evaders, trust me, the IRS makes sure they track down everyone who gets the EITC, welfare, etc. and doesn't pay their taxes. It would be such an easy fix if that weren't the case.

Honestly, I think for anyone to be able to talk of 'citizenship' and those who deserve it or not, should take and pass the damn test themselves. You'd be surprised (or not) at how many people wouldn't pass the test. And that being the only difference between being a citizen and not, well, it's all pretty silly from a pure philosophical perspective.

Nice jab at the prez about the war in a totally irrelevant thread lol

Anyway. As to your stement I bolded, you couldnt be farther from the truth. Im not attacking you, just pointing out you really have no idea whatsoever about the immigration process. As I've also stated in many other threads (and if you missed it I will tell you) my wife was immigrated-legally. There are so many hoops to jump through when immigrating, including a criminal background check in America AND their home country. They are REQUIRED to get a clean record history from EVERY PLACE THEY HAVE LIVED in their home country going all the way back to birth. This missing step granting illegals citizenship or visa status is incredibly dangerous. No background checks are done whatsoever. There are many many other checks and balances in the immigration process illegals wont have to do, but to me that is the most important.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Aisengard

"Another side effect is people get so complacent about illegal entry they think it's OK in other parts of the world, and just by being an American citizen somehow grants them special treatment." I see this every single time I travel outside of the US, which is two or three times a year for the last 8 or 9 years.

I'm sorry if you think it's actually right and okay to jail and 'do whatever they want' to people who unknowingly enter their country, when the country actually has good diplomatic relations with the other person's home country. Who ever thought specifically Americans deserve special treatment? Never heard it from me. No one should be jailed and held just because they crossed a border, unless the countries were at war. The most that should be done with them is to deposit them right back where they came from at the trespasser's (monetary) expense. And that's my point. I'm glad I don't live in a country where the law is to jail people and do whatever the country wants to them for crossing a border.

Oh and BTW I never said anything about a Senator. Reading comprehension 0/10. Quit twisting my words and actually read what I wrote.

You're right, you wrote governor. Doesn't really change anything we were talking about, but nice grasping at any rate.

Since we're back on topic, I'd like to add a few things.

It really doesnt matter what we think is wrong or right. What is, is. Those of us who actually travel outside the US >generally< understand when you leave America, American laws disappear when you set foot in another country. It is up to the traveller to know and understand the laws of the land they are travelling to. Also, as I've said, >my< experience in my travels has proven to me some Americans DO in fact think having a black passport entitles them to special privleges. I've met people like this overseas. The reality is, it doesnt. In fact, in some cases, it targets you. When I travel overseas I typically dont carry my US passport with me unless I absolutely have to. It's better they think Im European. Again, this is based on my and other's experience. Whether you think it is right or wrong is irrelavent. As I've said, what is, is. Another example is Mexico. Living in Phoenix I make several trips to Mexico. I'm a diabetic and use insulin. Police in Mexico can stop you wherever you are and search you for no reason at all, and often do. You could be eating at a restaurant or walking down the street. A couple of years ago I was stopped and searched. Of course they found my diabetes kit which included insulin and a syringe. I was then taken, in handcuffs, to the magistrate and held overnight for "the transportation and using" of drugs, which is of course false. Didnt matter. A syringe is contraband. Had I had a precription for it, I would have been let go. But their laws say no prescription and off to jail you go. Now, needless to say, I carry a prescription. But again, it doesnt matter what we think is right or wrong, that's their law to enforce however they see fit.

In response to your comment "Who ever thought specifically Americans deserve special treatment? Never heard it from me."...I never implied you said nor thought it. You have made your opinion clear.

Alright, I agree with you. I'm just saying I wouldn't support those laws in my country.

non-blind, non-partisan discussions FTW Thank you, sir.

 

[RedBeard]

Yikes, the general consensus of agreement in this thread is downright scary!

So AT - P/N agrees (generally) on:
1. Handouts to illegal aliens
2. Man who shot youth in self defense
3. uhhhh...
4. hmm nothing here...

 

[skwicz212]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: BDawg
It would be a real shame to help people in a disadvantaged class go to college and try to improve their situation.

Fvck them; if they want breaks, and free sh|t, tuition they can damn well come here legally. Untill then we need to round em up and deport them. I'm tired of my taxes paying for them.

Where do you live that you get free tuition? I get nothing from the governement, I have to pay it myself.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

We Americans citizens do not have any obligation whatsoever to any foreign person who come here be it legally or illegally to provide them with anything including a job, free education, welfare or any other free government benefits.

Wrong. We as Americans have an obligation to pay our taxes. It's up to the government to decide what to do with them, and that includes welfare and the EITC for citizens of this country. Do you differentiate between legal immigrants who are granted citizenship and your fellow 'native' American citizen? Boy I sure hope not.

Yes we as Americans have an obligation to pay our taxes and it is up to the government to decide what to do with them however our government is supposed to be a "government of the people, by the people, for the people". The people in being Americans not any prick that comes running in here with both hands open yelling give me! give me! give me and taking everything he can get is hands on!

The US Government is dead wrong in forcing us to pay taxes so foreigners get a free ride no matter how you look at it!

 

[Aisengard]

The people in being Americans not any prick that comes running in here with both hands open yelling give me! give me! give me and taking everything he can get is hands on!

I don't really understand how the government can actually hand out things to people who aren't even on their lists. I think people definitely have a lack of understanding of the 'free' things these people get. I can definitely tell you they're not getting SS or EITC without the government realizing they are not actually citizens. If that's the case then it's a pretty easy fix without deporting millions upon millions of people who have been here for years. And it's also a pretty sad statement on the American government if they directly give money to people without even realizing they aren't citizens.

 

[Moonbeam]

We stole their land fair and square and use them like slaves. What's with this pay back crap?