WTF!? Rambus to continue royalty quest after ruling

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Megatomic

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
20,127
6
81
Originally posted by: merlocka
DRAM manufacturers selling DRAM for a loss to maintain revenue... has something to do with RAMBUS? Those guys made their own bed, now they have to sleep in it. I don't like the thought of paying 2x the price for memory either, but that is a completly different topic that has nothing to do with this ruling (other than you may eventually have to pay $201 for a stick of ram rather than $200).
I disagree, this topic is completely in line with the ruling because if RAMBUS is successful is pursuing lawsuits and are awarded monstrous award settlements (speculation is many millions if not billions of $$$) then those DRAM companies may wind up going bankrupt. You are right, they made their own beds and now will have to lie in them, but I don't have to like it. I just hope you are right and we only have to $1 more for the same products.

 

merlocka

Platinum Member
Nov 24, 1999
2,832
0
0
Originally posted by: Megatomic
Originally posted by: merlocka
DRAM manufacturers selling DRAM for a loss to maintain revenue... has something to do with RAMBUS? Those guys made their own bed, now they have to sleep in it. I don't like the thought of paying 2x the price for memory either, but that is a completly different topic that has nothing to do with this ruling (other than you may eventually have to pay $201 for a stick of ram rather than $200).
I disagree, this topic is completely in line with the ruling because if RAMBUS is successful is pursuing lawsuits and are awarded monstrous award settlements (speculation is many millions if not billions of $$$) then those DRAM companies may wind up going bankrupt. You are right, they made their own beds and now will have to lie in them, but I don't have to like it. I just hope you are right and we only have to $1 more for the same products.

Well, actually, I am wrong since I believe the current RAMBUS royality for DDR will be 3%. So it will be like $206 vs $200.

As far as it being in line with the ruling...

I agree that it will cause DRAM prices to increase by 3%.
I agree that many DRAM manufacturers could be in jepordy of paying large settlements.
I agree that these large settlements coupled with the fact that they are INTENTIONALLY SELLING DRAM AT HUGE LOSSES may cause several to eventually leave the business.

Perhaps this is why the smart ones (Samsung) have already agreed to pay. Again, the problems with the DRAM industry have mostly everything to do with the manufacturers themselves and very little to do with Rambus. Should RAMBUS excuse them from using their technology without paying for it just because the DRAM manufacturers business practices are leading them towards bankrupt?

 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,899
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Originally posted by: Megatomic
Originally posted by: merlocka
I'd much rather pay a buck more for a stick of memory... but that's just me.
Actually I'd be willing to pay another buck per stick of memory too, but that's not the issue here, the issue is that the already POOR DRAM manufacturers may have to pay many millions if not billions of $$$ to RAMBUS if this all goes the way I think it will. What is this going to do to these impoverished companies? Bury them is my guess... Ice9 supported that outcome IIRC, I don't. Hence my attitude towards RAMBUS.

I don't relish having to pay 2x the current cost for memory products in the future. I was enjoying the declining prices. :(

Ice9 supported the facts. The posters here only care if memory prices are low.

The memory makers were selling their memory at a loss, that is a fact. Korean giants Samsung and Hynix (Samsung to less of an extent because their DDR losses are being padded by their RDRam profits) are being subsidized by the government of South Korea. If DRAM OEM's choose to dig themselves a hole by selling DRAM for less than wholesale for an extended period of time, its their problem.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
47
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Originally posted by: GrumpyMan
Ice9 where are you?

He's here :p

http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.html?i=20649&ATVAR_START=41&p=3
Those who find Rambus an "Evil, litigous company" are both misled and misinformed.

The timeline goes like this:

In 1988, or somewhere near then, the 2 founders of Rambus develop a technology that would allow memory to exceed 500mhz or beyond. In 1989 these same 2 founders begin visiting with the engineering teams at the big memory manufacturing houses, such as Infineon (then Siemens), Micron, Hynix (then Hyundai), Samsung and Mitsubishi. They all sign on with NDA's to review Rambus' technology with a possibility of manufacturing it in the future.

Rambus is eventually formed and has applied for patents to the technologies in question. Somewhere around the 1991 or 1992 timeframe, JEDEC begins work on "SDRAM". During the initial phases of JEDEC's work on SDRAM, people brought up Rambus' own technology. In fact, JEDEC itself is not opposed to licensing technology for future standardization provided they are offered RAND royalty rates (Reasonable and non-discriminatory).

In a notorious memo by Willie Meyer at Infineon, he went as far as to call Rambus a "deadly menace" to the computer industry because they already owned the technology that ALL pc's will be built around someday. Knowing that Rambus was a REAL THREAT to their livelyhood and could potentially cause them to lose control over the industry they manage, they decided to do one thing:

Steal their technology.

How? Easy! Invite them to JEDEC, never allow them to present their technology (public trial info documenting the fact that rambus was BARRED from presenting their technology during the SDRAM process while ALL OTHERS were allowed to present), and then use the fact that they were on the standards committee in future litigation.

But it wasn't that simple, you see.... Rambus had patent APPLICATIONS. At the time of all this JEDEC hoopla, it wasn't even LEGAL to divulge patent applications. Only awarded patents.

So JEDEC drew up this vague patent policy that Judge Randall Rader of the CAFC said had a "Staggering lack of details" and attempted to put the screws to rambus in court. (For what it's worth, Randall Raider is THE #1 patent authority in the nation, and serves on the federal circuit court).

So what's true and what's not?

Did Rambus steal anyone's technology? No. JEDEC stole it from Rambus. Everyone in JEDEC developing the SDRAM standard KNEW about Rambus' technology from the NDA's they signed with them back in the late 80's. It wasn't until 1992 that SDRAM became a "reality", and it used technology stolen from rambus.

If you can read (judging from these comments, it appears many of you can't), I suggest you read the testimony of the FTC trial that's currently ongoing:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/adjpro/d9302/

It documents all these "facts" that so many of you get wrong.

Also, the CAFC verdict that overturned Judge Payne's virginia ruling of fraud:

http://rambus.org/Appeal/01-1449.html

Randall Rader makes the most interesting points, as he is THE #1 undisputed patent law authority in the united states.

By the way: Get used to rambus. The Rambus RASER cell is being used in PCI Express :)

Also a good chronology of what happened with Rambus is documented at the opening arguments for the Rambus vs. Infineon case, which is ultimately the case that the Supreme Court denied to hear because of Rader's verdict:

http://www.stocksandmoney.com/opening.htm

I know that most of you will simply refuse to believe fact, since a lot of you are young and were TAUGHT to hate Rambus because of all the smear campaigning done about them.

I personally don't see how ANY reasonable person can think Rambus is an "evil, litigous company" if you read all the facts and see how their property was blatantly stolen.
 

merlocka

Platinum Member
Nov 24, 1999
2,832
0
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I will be the first to admit that I had bought into the Evil Rambus "hype" back in the day of the 820. It was mainly because I saw it as Intel trying to drive Rambus as mainstream and leave AMD at the curb. Now that I understand better, I see that I was wrong.

If you take the time to read Ice9's postings, and the links/documents to which he refers, you will get a better understanding of the realities surrounding this litigation and will be able to draw a better conclusion that "Rambus sucks".

Rambus technology is impressive, and they did (are doing) everything possible to protect their IP. For that I commend them, and I hope the litigations lean in their favor. In this case, there might be some pricing pain in the near term but everyone will benifit in the long term.



 

grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
1,165
23
81
Originally posted by: dexvx Most of the claims of bad Rambus business practice was proved wrong by a poster named Ice9 a few months back, its just remarkable how short term a memory people have.

Ice9 made some very eloquent and convincing arguments but it was far from "proof."
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,899
0
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Originally posted by: grant2
Originally posted by: dexvx
Most of the claims of bad Rambus business practice was proved wrong by a poster named Ice9 a few months back, its just remarkable how short term a memory people have.

Ice9 made some very eloquent and convincing arguments but it was far from "proof."

Read the FTC and CAFC documentation and come again.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: grant2
Originally posted by: dexvx Most of the claims of bad Rambus business practice was proved wrong by a poster named Ice9 a few months back, its just remarkable how short term a memory people have.

Ice9 made some very eloquent and convincing arguments but it was far from "proof."

Well the courts have proven Rambus didnt do anything illegal and their patents are legit. Rambus won based on the legal merits of their cases. Ill say it again.

Rambus won, get over it.
 

techwanabe

Diamond Member
May 24, 2000
3,145
0
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Originally posted by: Megatomic
I'm sure many remember Ice9's very factual yet unpopular posts, but the fact of the matter is that most of us are interested in OUR OWN bottom line not that of some small tech company. For me this is the case for sure. If RAMBUS was to shrivel up and blow away in the wind most of us would care less.

It pretty much has shriveled up and blown away.

Just look on pricewatch and see how many sites still sell it! It is very rare now.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: techwanabe
Originally posted by: Megatomic
I'm sure many remember Ice9's very factual yet unpopular posts, but the fact of the matter is that most of us are interested in OUR OWN bottom line not that of some small tech company. For me this is the case for sure. If RAMBUS was to shrivel up and blow away in the wind most of us would care less.

It pretty much has shriveled up and blown away.

Just look on pricewatch and see how many sites still sell it! It is very rare now.

Yes RDRAM, has gone away, for now. Although SiS has released/is releasing a RDRAM based chipset for highend P4s, quadchannel memory bus, 9.6GBs bandwidth.

However Rambus the company has other technologies coming down the pipe, which will first be used on video cards, then in desktops. Although its a year or more out for video cards, so even longer for desktops.
 

grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
1,165
23
81
Originally posted by: digitalsm

Rambus won, get over it.

Get over what? You should wait until I offer an opinion on Rambus before trying to argue with me about it!
 

Macro2

Diamond Member
May 20, 2000
4,874
0
0
RE:"Well the courts have proven Rambus didnt do anything illegal and their patents are legit. Rambus won based on the legal merits of their cases. Ill say it again. Rambus won, get over it."

POPPYCOCK!
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Originally posted by: iuvas
This can only be bad news for the consumer.

I can't see why anyone would be at all happy about this (unless you're a rambus stockholder).

That is a rather narrow point of view for the cause-and-effect of products being invented in the first place. What is bad for the consumer is difficult to assess, even if you are Allen Greenspan.

Appealing to the common sense within all of us, as a consumer I find it hard to believe it is in my best interest to discourage talented people hard at work today from having the incentives of inventing tomorrow's memory standard.

What I do believe is anything less than the current prognosis for RAMBUS would in fact discourage investment into advancing the state of the art in memory architectures.

It would seem that a lot of people believe that you pay money today for a memory standard today to offset its development cost of yesterday. The reality is we all pay a premium on our products today so as to enable these companies to invest in the development of next years products.

Question: If you pay less for a 512MB stick of DDR RAM by screwing RAMBUS out of the IP royalties then as a consumer have you:

(a) hastened the development and reduced the time to market for 1024MB DDR2 RAM?

(b) slowed development and delayed the date at which the consumer will have the choice to purchase 1024MB DDR2 RAM?

Which is best for the consumer? I don't have a clue, but as a consumer I'd rather pay a few extra percentages for RAM and enable the memory guys to invest today for an even better product portfolio available to the customer tomorrow.
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
16,215
0
71
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: techwanabe
Originally posted by: Megatomic
I'm sure many remember Ice9's very factual yet unpopular posts, but the fact of the matter is that most of us are interested in OUR OWN bottom line not that of some small tech company. For me this is the case for sure. If RAMBUS was to shrivel up and blow away in the wind most of us would care less.

It pretty much has shriveled up and blown away.

Just look on pricewatch and see how many sites still sell it! It is very rare now.

Yes RDRAM, has gone away, for now. Although SiS has released/is releasing a RDRAM based chipset for highend P4s, quadchannel memory bus, 9.6GBs bandwidth.

However Rambus the company has other technologies coming down the pipe, which will first be used on video cards, then in desktops. Although its a year or more out for video cards, so even longer for desktops.


I'll believe when I see it...Kinda like all those sis658 chipsets with dual channel rdram that was supposed to come out like 8 months ago with granite bay mobos....Quad channel??? I can't see the reason for it with current 800fsb chips. Their high end chips alerady had capacity of pc3200 chips so anything more then 2 of those to match the 6.4gb/s of the 800fsb chip is a waste....