WTF is wrong with the Republicans???!!!

[Fritzo]

I'm a republican, but I'm getting SICKENED by the over the top smear tactics they seem to be using to try to win. In our state, DeWine had his ads taken off the air for false accusations against his opponent, then the GOP refused to fund his TV ads anymore, then he's back on TV with his own funded ads that are basically saying the same thing as the ads that got pulled!

Then I see crap like this:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/27/webb.allen/index.html

It makes me not want to vote for either side. I have NO idea what the plans of either side are if they get elected, I have no idea where they stand on issues, but I sure do know if one of them called a sex hotline in 1994. STOP IT ALREADY AND TELL US WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO IN OFFICE- I DON'T GIVE A FLYING F*** ABOUT SEMI-TRUE CRAP YOUR OPPONENT DID IN THE PAST!!!! :| x 1000

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Fritzo
I have no idea where they stand on issues, but I sure do know if one of them called a sex hotline in 1994.

Did he get a blowjob too???

Misinformed minds want to know and not be misinformed anymore.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I'm not trying to be flippant but what do you expect the Republicans to run on?

1) Peace and security

2) Limited government

3) Effective government

4) Fiscal conservatism

5) Elimination of government or corporate corruption

6) Afghanistan

7) Iraq

8) Iran

9) DPRK

10) energy security

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I'm not trying to be flippant but what do you expect the Republicans to run on?

1) Peace and security

2) Limited government

3) Effective government

4) Fiscal conservatism

5) Elimination of government or corporate corruption

6) Afghanistan

7) Iraq

8) Iran

9) DPRK

10) energy security

How about a plan on how to make those things better? That's what people would listen to. Not "My opponent looked at gay porn in college in 1988".

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I'm not trying to be flippant but what do you expect the Republicans to run on?

1) Peace and security

2) Limited government

3) Effective government

4) Fiscal conservatism

5) Elimination of government or corporate corruption

6) Afghanistan

7) Iraq

8) Iran

9) DPRK

10) energy security

How about a plan on how to make those things better? That's what people would listen to. Not "My opponent looked at gay porn in college in 1988".

LOL, great point. I was a strong republican for a while. I was ecstatic when we won the senate, congress, and the white house, I thought that we would finally get some things done. Then the Republicans basically abandoned the conservatives in this country and got drunk with power. I'm sick of both parties, I want the Dems to win at least one branch so we get some gridlock again.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I'm not trying to be flippant but what do you expect the Republicans to run on?

1) Peace and security

2) Limited government

3) Effective government

4) Fiscal conservatism

5) Elimination of government or corporate corruption

6) Afghanistan

7) Iraq

8) Iran

9) DPRK

10) energy security

How about a plan on how to make those things better? That's what people would listen to. Not "My opponent looked at gay porn in college in 1988".

LOL, great point. I was a strong republican for a while. I was ecstatic when we won the senate, congress, and the white house, I thought that we would finally get some things done. Then the Republicans basically abandoned the conservatives in this country and got drunk with power. I'm sick of both parties, I want the Dems to win at least one branch so we get some gridlock again.

The VAST majority of the idiots we keep electing (hmm, what does that say about us?) really need some adult supervision. Since we aren't likely to get any of that any time soon, I'd settle for them being so busy fighting with each other that they don't have time to mess things up too badly. The fact that the Clinton years were so successful is not an accident, the government was actually pretty well balanced back then.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I'm not trying to be flippant but what do you expect the Republicans to run on?

1) Peace and security

2) Limited government

3) Effective government

4) Fiscal conservatism

5) Elimination of government or corporate corruption

6) Afghanistan

7) Iraq

8) Iran

9) DPRK

10) energy security

How about a plan on how to make those things better? That's what people would listen to. Not "My opponent looked at gay porn in college in 1988".

LOL, great point. I was a strong republican for a while. I was ecstatic when we won the senate, congress, and the white house, I thought that we would finally get some things done. Then the Republicans basically abandoned the conservatives in this country and got drunk with power. I'm sick of both parties, I want the Dems to win at least one branch so we get some gridlock again.

The VAST majority of the idiots we keep electing (hmm, what does that say about us?) really need some adult supervision. Since we aren't likely to get any of that any time soon, I'd settle for them being so busy fighting with each other that they don't have time to mess things up too badly. The fact that the Clinton years were so successful is not an accident, the government was actually pretty well balanced back then.

I completely agree with you. I think the problem is that most Americans do not pay attention to the issues, and just vote down party lines on what the Democrats and Republicans say that they will do. In reality, neither party does what they say will, they do whatever they can to stay in power. I hear from way too many people that they don't care about politics because it doesn't effect them.

I have to admit though, I have voted for people that I do not agree, just because they say they are conservative. In the time that we are in, it is completely throwing your vote away if you vote for anyone besides a Republican or Democrat, you just have to choose between the lesser of two evils. I am sick of it, so even if I am throwing my vote away I'm going to start voting independent, or whomever I agree with. Maybe someday enough people will wake up and we can get both parties out of office, or at least get them to start doing what they say they will do.

 

[theeedude]

DeWine was a loser from beginning, I thought.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

We'll know after the 7th.

 

[Jhhnn]

Anybody else remember Willie Horton? The smear campaign was so effective against Dukakis that it's become the Repubs' basic MO ever since... combined with rah-rah faux patriotism and emotional pandering, it's served them well.

Why quit a good thing? When you can campaign on one set of "values" and then do the opposite, while the voters let you get away with it?

Part of the scam, when confronted, is along these llines-

"In reality, neither party does what they say will, they do whatever they can to stay in power. "

Basic they're-just-as-bad diversion and apologism... No american govt of my lifetime has shown the shameless depravity and greed of the current repubs- they're in a class by themselves.

 

[1EZduzit]

WTF is wrong with the Republicans???!!!

In a nutshell, they have disconnected themselves from reality in order to maintain their delusions of grandeur.

delusions of grandeur - a delusion (common in paranoia) that you are much greater and more powerful and influential than you really are

 

[imported_Lothar]

Republicans know that they've lost in Ohio.
They've abandoned DeWine.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm going to give up on good government and go for gridlock. I'm going to eat some worms.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Anybody else remember Willie Horton? The smear campaign was so effective against Dukakis that it's become the Repubs' basic MO ever since... combined with rah-rah faux patriotism and emotional pandering, it's served them well.

I don't think I would call the Horton ad a smear, it was 100% factual. Even if it was an extreme case, the fact that Dukakis allowed convicted felons furlows was a relevent point to bring up in a campaign.
Horton was convicted of MURDER!!!! and they decided to let the guy out for the weekend? What kind of stupid ass policy is that?

Now the Webb thing is factual, but I don't think it is really relevent to how he would act as a senator. I certainly would not have launched this type of attack. I am sure there are far better issues to bring up about Webb than a few passages in a book. (Unless Webb said "I'm going to govern like I write")

On the smear thing in general, both sides do it, so let's not all get sactamonous like only the Republicans are engaged in these types of tactics.

Finally, it has been proven many times that negative ads work. Until that fact changes we are stuck with them.
Notice in general though that the news media is all about negative stories, that is because they create ratings. The politicians are only following this trend.

On Horton: read this and tell me the ad bringing him up was a 'smear'

On October 26, 1974, in Lawrence, Massachusetts, Horton and two accomplices robbed Joseph Fournier, a 17 year old gas station attendant, stabbed him 19 times, and left him in a trash can. Fournier died from blood loss. Horton was convicted of murder, sentenced to life imprisonment, and incarcerated at the Concord Correctional Facility in Massachusetts. On June 6, 1986, he was released as part of a weekend furlough program but did not return.

On April 3, 1987 in Oxon Hill, Maryland, Horton twice raped a local woman after pistol-whipping, knifing, binding, and gagging her fiancé. He then stole the car belonging to the man he had assaulted, but was later captured by police after a chase. On October 20, Horton was sentenced in Maryland to two consecutive life terms plus 85 years. The sentencing judge refused to return Horton to Massachusetts, saying, "I'm not prepared to take the chance that Mr. Horton might again be furloughed or otherwise released. This man should never draw a breath of free air again." This was reported in the October 1987 Reader's Digest.

Democratic Presidential candidate Michael Dukakis was the governor of Massachusetts at the time, and while he did not start the furlough program, he had supported it as a method of rehabilitation. The State inmate furlough program was actually signed into law by Republican Governor Francis W. Sargent in 1972. However, in 1976, Governor Dukakis vetoed a bill that would have made inmates convicted of first-degree murder ineligible for furloughs. The program remained in effect through the intervening term of governor Edward J. King and was abolished during Dukakis's final term of office on April 28, 1988. This abolition only occurred after the Lawrence Eagle Tribune had run 175 stories about the furlough program and won a Pulitzer Prize. Dukakis continued to argue that the program was 99% effective, yet as the Lawrence Eagle Tribune pointed out, in no other state or in the federal furlough program would a prisoner serving life without parole as Horton was be eligible for a furlough.

 

[Moonbeam]

The Horton ad means one thing. No politician can appear to be soft on crime. That means we have to create a police state with billions of dollars for prisons and half our people in jail. We must seek to punish the guilty, and now water board them too. It means we give up our rights and live in gated communities, that we fight endless drug wars and point the finger of guilt at our neighbors. The right is a mental disease that destroys us from within and is far and away more deadly and dangerous to the people than letting one murderer out of jail who kills again. I am not defending the idea of letting killers out of jail to walk around, only that the reaction to that our absurd reaction to that has been far more harmful than the so called cure. We need to rehabilitate prisoners and get past this need to find somebody on whom to dump our self hate because we are killing ourselves with the prosecutorial right leading the march into hell.

We can worry about the excesses of to extreme a belief in the rehabilitation of people when we begin to cross that bridge. It will definitely not work in all cases but one needn't be delusional in either direction.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We can worry about the excesses of to extreme a belief in the rehabilitation of people when we begin to cross that bridge. It will definitely not work in all cases but one needn't be delusional in either direction.

Horton was a convicted murder with a life sentence with NO chance of parole, and yet he was let out of prison for the weekend.
What exactly is the purpose of letting him out for the weekend? Are we trying to rehabilitate him for his next life?

 

[ScottMac]

The phone-sex call is a fact, it's documented, it happened.

*BUT* According to the candidate (or his organiztion) it was a mis-dialed number to a legit government agency (i.e., "Typo'd phone number"). The duration of the call was something like ~one and a half minutes or less.

There's no shortage of dirty ads from either side.

Unfortunately, they apparently work or they wouldn't be used.

FWIW

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Now the Webb thing is factual, but I don't think it is really relevent to how he would act as a senator.

No, the Webb book is fiction published in 2002, and the narrative George "Macaca" Allen's campaign chose to higlight for their smear ad are out of context.

The context, itself, is described in Senator John McCain's comments about the author and the book:

?James Webb?s new novel paints a portrait of a modern Vietnam charged with hopes for the future but haunted by the ghosts of its war-torn past. It captures well the lingering scars of the war, and exposes the tension between the dynamism of a new generation and the invisible bondage of an older generation for whom wartime allegiances, and animosities, are rendered no less vivid by the passage of time. A novel of revenge and redemption that tells us much about both where Vietnam is headed and where it has been.?
? Senator John McCain

Other commentary about James Webb's "Lost Soldiers:"

Praise

?Webb?s cultural and political portrayal of Vietnam 25 years after the war?s end is delivered with such bold strokes and magical detail.... This is a highly personal and empathetic look at today?s Vietnam.... This detailed, lovingly drawn portrait of Vietnam reveals a sad, tortured country that has never recovered from the horrifying events of a quarter-century ago.?
? Publishers Weekly

?A masterpiece, one of the most poignant and powerful novels of this generation ... Lost Soldiers is one of those rare books that is not only a beautifully realized literary triumph but also a crackling good page-turner. Its seamless blend of mystery and intrigue, with its subtle truths of history and culture and its stories of love and honor played out by unforgettable characters, is nothing short of miraculous. Jim Webb did not set out to write a healing book, but that is what he has done. I suspect Lost Soldiers can bring my country together after years of debate and division ? and it took a warrior to write it. You will come away a different person after you?ve read it.?
? Walter Anderson, Chairman and Publisher, Parade Magazine

Should we really be suprised to learn that the characters in a strong, creative work of fiction, positive or negative, are strongly portrayed? :roll:

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We can worry about the excesses of to extreme a belief in the rehabilitation of people when we begin to cross that bridge. It will definitely not work in all cases but one needn't be delusional in either direction.

Horton was a convicted murder with a life sentence with NO chance of parole, and yet he was let out of prison for the weekend.
What exactly is the purpose of letting him out for the weekend? Are we trying to rehabilitate him for his next life?

My dear Sir, I gave you some major issues to chew over, in my opinion, and you responded to none of those but bring up this Horton thingi again. As I said, I see no point in letting murderers walk around among us because some hair brain gets a notion to let him out. But if, and we won't go into how we can verify this, Horton truly reformed, what would be the purpose of keeping him in jail. The murderer dies on reformation and is no longer there to punish.

 

[Jhhnn]

Factual or not, the Horton ads were pretty smarmy, giving the impression that it was all dukakis' fault, when a repub predecessor had signed the bill into law, then claiming he vetoed a bill that would have ended the practice of weekend furloughs... what else did he veto in the process? nobody wants to talk about that...

reminds me of the truly slimey routine about attempting to attach and end to inheritance tax to an increase the minimum wage bill, then sliming Dems for not supporting it.... with the whole flip-flop attack on Kerry being much the same...

It doesn't have to be a lie, like the swiftboat attack, to be a smear... it just has to intentionally leave a false impression... there are, as we've seen from the repubs, a variety of ways to accomplish that. Here's another truly desperate attempt at much the same-

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1020-04.htm

 

[ProfJohn]

Harvey, this is the second time in two days I have defended Webb over the passages in his book. Did you miss that?

What I mean by factual is that the passages DO exist in his book. Allen did not make this story up, they are there and anyone can go to the library and check the books out and find them.
If Allen feels that the voters of Virginia should know about those passages and that them knowing will affect their votes then that is his right. At that point it is up to Webb to defend what he wrote, which he is doing, and which people like McCain have done (although I don?t think the McCain comment is related to these passages, but the book in general) I think this attack by Allen is pretty weak and not relevant to how Webb will vote as a Senator, and I have no clue why he would launch such an attack.

Harvey, why are you attacking me when I am defending the guy? Does your hatred of me run that deep?

 

[Jeff7]

So if Stephen King tried to run for office, would his suitability to serve be based on his horror novels? Would anyone really suggest that he'd implement laws to turn the country into one huge horror story? Would he allow rabid dogs to roam the streets, and reallocate blood in blood banks so that it might run more freely from open elevators?

 

[Jhhnn]

From ProfJohn-

"I think this attack by Allen is pretty weak and not relevant to how Webb will vote as a Senator, and I have no clue why he (Allen) would launch such an attack."

Why? As I pointed out above, it's been basic Repub campaign methodology for a very long time, a variant on the basic theme of God, Guns and Gays, an attempt to detach voters from the reality of honest campaign issues, get them onboard with a more gut level message...

Your defense of Webb is much appreciated, and eminently fair, but please, don't play the naif wrt Repub methods. They're entirely too consistent and too obvious for that to work...

 

[ProfJohn]

On the Webb-Allen race:
One thing I do agree with totally is this line: Link
"This entire campaign has been a double standard -- a one-way street of scrutiny," said Allen campaign manager Dick Wadhams. "And it's all directed at Senator Allen."

Allen makes the macaca line and the media spends a week talking about nothing but that, even a writer for the Washington Post said they went over board.

Then we get the whole "Allen said the N-Word" flap. Turns out that the guy making the charge never heard Allen say the N-word, and people who were actually there when it was supposedly said refute the details.

Meanwhile, we have Webb refusing to deny that he ever said the N-word himself.

And has there been any media coverage over this Webb article "Women Can't Fight" ?
Have to love these Webb lines:
?The Hall [Bancroft Hall], which houses 4,000 males and 300 females, is a horny woman?s dream.?
?Many women appear to be having problems with their sexuality?What kind of woman would seek out the Academy routine??
"And I have never met a woman, including the dozens of female midshipmen I encountered during my recent semester as a professor at the Naval Academy, whom I would trust to provide those men with combat leadership."
?If Congress had considered these realities when it debated whether to open the service academies to women, and approached this as a national defense rather than a women?s issue, it may have voted differently.?

This article got Webb ejected from his teaching position and was banned for even appearing at the Academy for several years.
Where is the MSM coverage of these lines? This is not some piece of fiction, this was an opinion article written by Webb.

 

[Andyb23]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
On the Webb-Allen race:
One thing I do agree with totally is this line: Link
"This entire campaign has been a double standard -- a one-way street of scrutiny," said Allen campaign manager Dick Wadhams. "And it's all directed at Senator Allen."

Allen makes the macaca line and the media spends a week talking about nothing but that, even a writer for the Washington Post said they went over board.

Then we get the whole "Allen said the N-Word" flap. Turns out that the guy making the charge never heard Allen say the N-word, and people who were actually there when it was supposedly said refute the details.

Meanwhile, we have Webb refusing to deny that he ever said the N-word himself.

And has there been any media coverage over this Webb article "Women Can't Fight" ?
Have to love these Webb lines:
?The Hall [Bancroft Hall], which houses 4,000 males and 300 females, is a horny woman?s dream.?
?Many women appear to be having problems with their sexuality?What kind of woman would seek out the Academy routine??
"And I have never met a woman, including the dozens of female midshipmen I encountered during my recent semester as a professor at the Naval Academy, whom I would trust to provide those men with combat leadership."
?If Congress had considered these realities when it debated whether to open the service academies to women, and approached this as a national defense rather than a women?s issue, it may have voted differently.?

This article got Webb ejected from his teaching position and was banned for even appearing at the Academy for several years.
Where is the MSM coverage of these lines? This is not some piece of fiction, this was an opinion article written by Webb.

Here is all you need to know about Allen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azmIRwEno1c