WTF is wrong with the Republicans???!!!

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ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From ProfJohn-

"I think this attack by Allen is pretty weak and not relevant to how Webb will vote as a Senator, and I have no clue why he (Allen) would launch such an attack."

Why? As I pointed out above, it's been basic Repub campaign methodology for a very long time, a variant on the basic theme of God, Guns and Gays, an attempt to detach voters from the reality of honest campaign issues, get them onboard with a more gut level message...

Your defense of Webb is much appreciated, and eminently fair, but please, don't play the naif wrt Repub methods. They're entirely too consistent and too obvious for that to work...
Don't act like Democrats are innocent little children who can do no harm. I can post ad after ad by the Democrats that were totally baseless attacks on Republicans.
Here is the worst Link no video, but picture from the ad.
I?m Renee Mullins, James Byrd?s daughter.
On June 7, 1998 in Texas my father was killed. He was beaten, chained, and then dragged 3 miles to his death, all because he was black.
So when Governor George W. Bush refused to support hate-crime legislation, it was like my father was killed all over again.
Call Governor George W. Bush and tell him to support hate-crime legislation.
We won?t be dragged away from our future.
and
I?m Renee Mullins. My father was James Byrd, Jr.
I still have nightmares thinking about him, the day three men chained him behind their pickup truck and dragged him three miles over pavement.
I can see skin being torn away from his body.
I can hear him gasping for air.
I can feel the tears in his eyes, the struggle of his brain as images of his life painfully bang through his head as the links of a heavy chain clinched around his ankles dragging him bump by bump until he was decapitated. [pause]
On June 7, 1998 this happened to my father, all because he was black. I went to Governor George W. Bush and begged him to help pass a hate crimes bill.
He just told me no.
I'm doing this commercial to ask you to call Governor Bush at 512-X and tell him to introduce a hate crimes bill in Texas.
Let him know that our community won't be dragged down by hate crimes.
Two of the three guys who were involved in this heinous murder are on death row.
As Bush said in reaction "we don't need tougher laws." how can we punish them more?
These were two of the most disgusting and vile hate filled ads I have ever seen or heard. To insinuate that Bush had anything to do with this murder is beyond despicable. These ads were run in October of 2000. They were not meant to get Bush to support some hate crimes law in the state of Texas, but to attack Bush as he ran for President.

Contrast the death sentances of these two men to the case of Ken Tillery, a white man killed by three blacks in the SAME town. The three guys who killed Tillery are serving life sentances. hmmmm where are the ads about this?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From ProfJohn-

"I think this attack by Allen is pretty weak and not relevant to how Webb will vote as a Senator, and I have no clue why he (Allen) would launch such an attack."

Why? As I pointed out above, it's been basic Repub campaign methodology for a very long time, a variant on the basic theme of God, Guns and Gays, an attempt to detach voters from the reality of honest campaign issues, get them onboard with a more gut level message...

Your defense of Webb is much appreciated, and eminently fair, but please, don't play the naif wrt Repub methods. They're entirely too consistent and too obvious for that to work...
Don't act like Democrats are innocent little children who can do no harm. I can post ad after ad by the Democrats that were totally baseless attacks on Republicans.
Here is the worst Link no video, but picture from the ad.
I?m Renee Mullins, James Byrd?s daughter.
On June 7, 1998 in Texas my father was killed. He was beaten, chained, and then dragged 3 miles to his death, all because he was black.
So when Governor George W. Bush refused to support hate-crime legislation, it was like my father was killed all over again.
Call Governor George W. Bush and tell him to support hate-crime legislation.
We won?t be dragged away from our future.
and
I?m Renee Mullins. My father was James Byrd, Jr.
I still have nightmares thinking about him, the day three men chained him behind their pickup truck and dragged him three miles over pavement.
I can see skin being torn away from his body.
I can hear him gasping for air.
I can feel the tears in his eyes, the struggle of his brain as images of his life painfully bang through his head as the links of a heavy chain clinched around his ankles dragging him bump by bump until he was decapitated. [pause]
On June 7, 1998 this happened to my father, all because he was black. I went to Governor George W. Bush and begged him to help pass a hate crimes bill.
He just told me no.
I'm doing this commercial to ask you to call Governor Bush at 512-X and tell him to introduce a hate crimes bill in Texas.
Let him know that our community won't be dragged down by hate crimes.
Two of the three guys who were involved in this heinous murder are on death row.
As Bush said in reaction "we don't need tougher laws." how can we punish them more?
These were two of the most disgusting and vile hate filled ads I have ever seen or heard. To insinuate that Bush had anything to do with this murder is beyond despicable. These ads were run in October of 2000. They were not meant to get Bush to support some hate crimes law in the state of Texas, but to attack Bush as he ran for President.

Contrast the death sentances of these two men to the case of Ken Tillery, a white man killed by three blacks in the SAME town. The three guys who killed Tillery are serving life sentances. hmmmm where are the ads about this?

If you'll pardon the pun, this is not a black and white situation, nobody is claiming that Dems aren't negative...obviously they are, often unpleasantly so. But the difference is that they run POSITIVE campaigns too, while the Republicans seem totally incapable of it. Obviously I'd prefer if neither side did it, but it's still better if you do less of it than your opponents. I mean for fvcks sake, the Republican theme this campaign season is "If you vote Democrat, you are going to die". That's it. Those pushing the theme admit that the Republicans are crap, but they suggest it's better than being killed by terrorists, the certain result of voting Democrat. How's that for negativity?
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Webb vs. Allen is probably the ugliest of all the campaigns this election cycle. It would be a miracle if one of them actually got up and talked about what they do right instead of what the other guy does wrong.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
60
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Harvey, this is the second time in two days I have defended Webb over the passages in his book. Did you miss that?

What I mean by factual is that the passages DO exist in his book. Allen did not make this story up, they are there and anyone can go to the library and check the books out and find them.

I didn't attack you. Did you miss that?

You said that "the Webb thing is factual," but you didn't mention the context. Regarding the validty of Allen's attack ad, I think that context is as much a part of the factual basis of Webb's words as the words, themself.

All I did was add that to the discussion. How is that an attack on you?
If Allen feels that the voters of Virginia should know about those passages and that them knowing will affect their votes then that is his right. At that point it is up to Webb to defend what he wrote, which he is doing,...
Now, we disagree. If Allen thinks it's OK to put out a naked ad quoting "hot" passages from Webb's novel, and he doesn't include any mention of the context or the fact that it's part of a strong description of a negative character in an artisitically acclaimed work of fiction, it's abundantly clear that the intent of the ad is an attempt at misleading and deceptive character assasination.

Of course, that doesn't suprise me, coming from a sleeze like George Allen.
... and which people like McCain have done (although I don?t think the McCain comment is related to these passages, but the book in general)
What you "think" McCain meant doesn't mean anything unless you have some evidence to support your "thinking."
I think this attack by Allen is pretty weak and not relevant to how Webb will vote as a Senator, and I have no clue why he would launch such an attack.
Because he's a dumb fsck.
Harvey, why are you attacking me when I am defending the guy?
See above[/b]
Does your hatred of me run that deep?
Are you enjoying playing the victim? :cookie: :cookie: :cookie:

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Harvey, the McCain quote you linked to is in discussion of the book as a whole. Not as it relates to these few lines.

I don't think anyone rational person can look at what McCain said in 2002 and apply that to these few lines.

Unless McCain comes right out and makes a statement in support of these passages we have no clue what he thinks about these specific lines.

And on the victim thing, I learned that technique from watching the Democrats.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,896
7,922
136
Attack campaigns are being run through both parties ? they both need an a** whooping over it, and for us to boycott all candidates who run such a smear campaign.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
60
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Harvey, the McCain quote you linked to is in discussion of the book as a whole. Not as it relates to these few lines.

I don't think anyone rational person can look at what McCain said in 2002 and apply that to these few lines.

Unless McCain comes right out and makes a statement in support of these passages we have no clue what he thinks about these specific lines.
CONSUMATE BULLSH8! You don't know anything about what McCain, or anyone else, thinks of which part of Webb's book. If you want a better persective on Webb as an author, try McCain's other quote about another of Webb's books at my link:
The Emperor?s General

?With The Emperor?s General, Jim Webb cements his reputation as an extraordinarily gifted storyteller. He excels in mining the rich veins of history to invest his fiction with the drama of great events.... An engrossing, moving, and splendid book.?
? Senator John McCain
Does that really sound like McCain's a casual, skim through reader of Webb's workS (plural)? :roll: If you don't like McCain's literary commentary, try dismissing the rest of the positive quotes at my first link or these from another source:
From Publishers Weekly
Webb's cultural and political portrayal of Vietnam 25 years after the war's end is delivered with such bold strokes and magical detail that it really doesn't matter that the plot itself is relegated to the backseat. This is a highly personal and empathetic look at today's Vietnam, a land of misery and inequity, yet one still vibrantly alive. The story follows the experiences of Brandon Condley, an ex-Marine whose job it is to find missing American soldiers, dead or alive. Condley is trying to track down Theodore Deville, an army grunt who not only deserted his unit in 1969 and killed a fellow serviceman, but then joined the ranks of the enemy. Condley is convinced Deville is still alive, operating somewhere in southeast Asia's underground economy. Webb introduces a rich cast of supporting characters as Condley pursues his quarry across Vietnam, Australia, the former Soviet Union and Thailand. Among the most delicately etched is Dzung, a former South Vietnamese officer now relegated, like thousands of others on the losing side, to a menial station in life, one that he and his family have no hope of escaping. Such characters, as well as the highly textured mood and atmosphere that Webb creates, tend to further eclipse the main narrative and shift the focus to the moral consequences and social fallout of the war. This detailed, lovingly drawn portrait of Vietnam reveals a sad, tortured country that has never recovered from the horrifying events of a quarter-century ago. Major print and radio advertising. (Sept. 4)Forecast: Webb (Fields of Fire) is no stranger to the bestseller lists; endorsements from heavy hitters like Sen. John McCain will help put him there once again.

Copyright 2001 Cahners Business Information, Inc.
.
.
From Library Journal
Some of the memories were horrible. A few of them were good. But all of them had meaning. Thus begins a gripping tale of mystery and intrigue set in present-day Vietnam. The center of this fine novel is the search for two army deserters who led U.S. troops into ambush and then hid in North Vietnam after the hostilities ceased. Like the best of such tales, however, the novel offers more than the resolution of a mystery: it also tells a poignant story of a love that might have been and of friendship across partisan lines and is rich with the sounds and smells of its foreign setting. Former Secretary of the Navy and Assistant Secretary of Defense Webb (also the author of the best-selling Fields of Fire and other novels) has used his familiarity with the Far East to evoke the tangled net of loyalties and enmities bequeathed to a troubled country by a savage history of conflict. This exceptionally well-written book tells a gripping tale; enthusiastically recommended.
-David Keymer, Zayed Univ., Dubai
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
And on the victim thing, I learned that technique from watching the Democrats.
:cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie:
:cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie:

At this rate, I'll save money by buying you your own Keebler elf. :laugh:
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Harvey, thanks for the cookies. Can I have some milk next?

Here look at this great praise
Film scholars agree, however, that it is the single most important and key film of all time in American movie history - it contains many new cinematic innovations and refinements, technical effects and artistic advancements, including a color sequence at the end. It had a formative influence on future films and has had a recognized impact on film history and the development of film as art. In addition, at almost three hours in length, it was the longest film to date.
That is for Birth of a Nation.

Just because a book or film gets praise does not mean that the person giving the praise agrees with everything said in that book.
John McCain saying Webb is a 'gifted story teller" does not mean that McCain thinks the passages in question are great or worthy or anything else, until McCain comes out in support of Webb in regards to those specific passages we have no clue how he views them.

And I'll give you a dirty little secret. Before publishing a book many review copies are sent out to people who the publisher thinks will say good things about them. Often these quotes reach the back cover of the books as a way of selling them.
The Emperor?s General

?With The Emperor?s General, Jim Webb cements his reputation as an extraordinarily gifted storyteller. He excels in mining the rich veins of history to invest his fiction with the drama of great events.... An engrossing, moving, and splendid book.?
? Senator John McCain
That above is all about book sales, nothing else.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
ProfJohn, just because someone writes something in a book does not mean they automatically agree with it. Duh.

It's all about context, and you've missed it completely.

/argument
 

sierrita

Senior member
Mar 24, 2002
929
0
0
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I'm not trying to be flippant but what do you expect the Republicans to run on?

1) Peace and security

2) Limited government

3) Effective government

4) Fiscal conservatism

5) Elimination of government or corporate corruption

6) Afghanistan

7) Iraq

8) Iran

9) DPRK

10) energy security

11) We will only fvck our pages if they are over 18.

12) ^^and of the opposite sex^^
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,600
4,698
136
Originally posted by: sierrita
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I'm not trying to be flippant but what do you expect the Republicans to run on?

1) Peace and security

2) Limited government

3) Effective government

4) Fiscal conservatism

5) Elimination of government or corporate corruption

6) Afghanistan

7) Iraq

8) Iran

9) DPRK

10) energy security

11) We will only fvck our pages if they are over 18.

12) ^^and of the opposite sex^^


13) Waterboarding shall be considered a no-brainer.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
60
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Just because a book or film gets praise does not mean that the person giving the praise agrees with everything said in that book.
Damn! Every time I try to give you enough slack to show you have some intellect, you blow it. Read the second McCain quote again:
?With The Emperor?s General, Jim Webb cements his reputation as an extraordinarily gifted storyteller. He excels in mining the rich veins of history to invest his fiction with the drama of great events.... An engrossing, moving, and splendid book.?
? Senator John McCain
And just because you speculate that McCain didn't read the entire book doesn't make your statement true. Now, it's my turn to speculate, and I'd guess that McCain wouldn't waste his time reading more than one novel by the same author if he didn't enjoy them. Your entire logic fails.
Harvey, thanks for the cookies. Can I have some milk next?
You're on your own. Hit up your rich Republican sponsors for your milk money. Maybe they'll buy you a new copy of "Fun With Dick And Jane" and a new coloring book and crayons, too. :p
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,908
2,141
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Harvey, the McCain quote you linked to is in discussion of the book as a whole. Not as it relates to these few lines.

I don't think anyone rational person can look at what McCain said in 2002 and apply that to these few lines.

Unless McCain comes right out and makes a statement in support of these passages we have no clue what he thinks about these specific lines.
CONSUMATE BULLSH8! You don't know anything about what McCain, or anyone else, thinks of which part of Webb's book. If you want a better persective on Webb as an author, try McCain's other quote about another of Webb's books at my link:
The Emperor?s General

?With The Emperor?s General, Jim Webb cements his reputation as an extraordinarily gifted storyteller. He excels in mining the rich veins of history to invest his fiction with the drama of great events.... An engrossing, moving, and splendid book.?
? Senator John McCain
Does that really sound like McCain's a casual, skim through reader of Webb's workS (plural)? :roll: If you don't like McCain's literary commentary, try dismissing the rest of the positive quotes at my first link or these from another source:
From Publishers Weekly
Webb's cultural and political portrayal of Vietnam 25 years after the war's end is delivered with such bold strokes and magical detail that it really doesn't matter that the plot itself is relegated to the backseat. This is a highly personal and empathetic look at today's Vietnam, a land of misery and inequity, yet one still vibrantly alive. The story follows the experiences of Brandon Condley, an ex-Marine whose job it is to find missing American soldiers, dead or alive. Condley is trying to track down Theodore Deville, an army grunt who not only deserted his unit in 1969 and killed a fellow serviceman, but then joined the ranks of the enemy. Condley is convinced Deville is still alive, operating somewhere in southeast Asia's underground economy. Webb introduces a rich cast of supporting characters as Condley pursues his quarry across Vietnam, Australia, the former Soviet Union and Thailand. Among the most delicately etched is Dzung, a former South Vietnamese officer now relegated, like thousands of others on the losing side, to a menial station in life, one that he and his family have no hope of escaping. Such characters, as well as the highly textured mood and atmosphere that Webb creates, tend to further eclipse the main narrative and shift the focus to the moral consequences and social fallout of the war. This detailed, lovingly drawn portrait of Vietnam reveals a sad, tortured country that has never recovered from the horrifying events of a quarter-century ago. Major print and radio advertising. (Sept. 4)Forecast: Webb (Fields of Fire) is no stranger to the bestseller lists; endorsements from heavy hitters like Sen. John McCain will help put him there once again.

Copyright 2001 Cahners Business Information, Inc.
.
.
From Library Journal
Some of the memories were horrible. A few of them were good. But all of them had meaning. Thus begins a gripping tale of mystery and intrigue set in present-day Vietnam. The center of this fine novel is the search for two army deserters who led U.S. troops into ambush and then hid in North Vietnam after the hostilities ceased. Like the best of such tales, however, the novel offers more than the resolution of a mystery: it also tells a poignant story of a love that might have been and of friendship across partisan lines and is rich with the sounds and smells of its foreign setting. Former Secretary of the Navy and Assistant Secretary of Defense Webb (also the author of the best-selling Fields of Fire and other novels) has used his familiarity with the Far East to evoke the tangled net of loyalties and enmities bequeathed to a troubled country by a savage history of conflict. This exceptionally well-written book tells a gripping tale; enthusiastically recommended.
-David Keymer, Zayed Univ., Dubai
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
And on the victim thing, I learned that technique from watching the Democrats.
:cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie:
:cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie:

At this rate, I'll save money by buying you your own Keebler elf. :laugh:

Now I remember why I don't post in here. Every post turns into a flame war.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: ScottMac
The phone-sex call is a fact, it's documented, it happened.

*BUT* According to the candidate (or his organiztion) it was a mis-dialed number to a legit government agency (i.e., "Typo'd phone number").

Well Politicking is "hard work", Bush himself said so.

I would expect my campaigners to take a break, even a phone sex break if that is what they feel like. It's good for the Economy too.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ScottMac
The phone-sex call is a fact, it's documented, it happened.

*BUT* According to the candidate (or his organiztion) it was a mis-dialed number to a legit government agency (i.e., "Typo'd phone number").
Well Politicking is "hard work", Bush himself said so.

I would expect my campaigners to take a break, even a phone sex break if that is what they feel like. It's good for the Economy too.
How do you know phone-sex centres haven't been outsourced ;)
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Well Politicking is "hard work", Bush himself said so.

I would expect my campaigners to take a break, even a phone sex break if that is what they feel like. It's good for the Economy too.
Actually in this case there really was no dispute whatsoever what had happened when you looked at the facts. The sex line number was virtually identical to an office number for that official, the call lasted under a minute and a half, and immediately afterwards the correct phone number for the office line was dialed.
 

ScottMac

Moderator<br>Networking<br>Elite member
Mar 19, 2001
5,471
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ScottMac
The phone-sex call is a fact, it's documented, it happened.

*BUT* According to the candidate (or his organiztion) it was a mis-dialed number to a legit government agency (i.e., "Typo'd phone number").

Well Politicking is "hard work", Bush himself said so.

I would expect my campaigners to take a break, even a phone sex break if that is what they feel like. It's good for the Economy too.

The other side of that issue is that is was done at taxpayers expense.

I believe it truely was a typo'd phone number (like ending up at whitehouse.com instead of whitehouse.gov).

FWIW