WSJ: Obama adopts Bush view on the powers of the presidency.

2Xtreme21

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Jun 13, 2004
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The Obama Administration this week released its predecessor's post-9/11 legal memoranda in the name of "transparency," producing another round of feel-good Bush criticism. Anyone interested in President Obama's actual executive-power policies, however, should look at his position on warrantless wiretapping. Dick Cheney must be smiling.

In a federal lawsuit, the Obama legal team is arguing that judges lack the authority to enforce their own rulings in classified matters of national security. The standoff concerns the Oregon chapter of the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, a Saudi Arabian charity that was shut down in 2004 on evidence that it was financing al Qaeda. Al-Haramain sued the Bush Administration in 2005, claiming it had been illegally wiretapped.

At the heart of Al-Haramain's case is a classified document that it says proves that the alleged eavesdropping was not authorized under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA. That record was inadvertently disclosed after Al-Haramain was designated as a terrorist organization; the Bush Administration declared such documents state secrets after their existence became known.

In July, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the President's right to do so, which should have ended the matter. But the San Francisco panel also returned the case to the presiding district court judge, Vaughn Walker, ordering him to decide if FISA pre-empts the state secrets privilege. If he does, Al-Haramain would be allowed to use the document to establish the standing to litigate.

The Obama Justice Department has adopted a legal stance identical to, if not more aggressive than, the Bush version. It argues that the court-forced disclosure of the surveillance programs would cause "exceptional harm to national security" by exposing intelligence sources and methods. Last Friday the Ninth Circuit denied the latest emergency motion to dismiss, again kicking matters back to Judge Walker.

In court documents filed hours later, Justice argues that the decision to release classified information "is committed to the discretion of the Executive Branch, and is not subject to judicial review. Moreover, the Court does not have independent power . . . to order the Government to grant counsel access to classified information when the Executive Branch has denied them such access." The brief continues that federal judges are "ill-equipped to second-guess the Executive Branch."

That's about as pure an assertion of Presidential power as they come, and we're beginning to wonder if the White House has put David Addington, Mr. Cheney's chief legal aide, on retainer. The practical effect is to prevent the courts from reviewing the legality of the warrantless wiretapping program that Mr. Obama repeatedly claimed to find so heinous -- at least before taking office. Justice, by the way, is making the same state secrets argument in a separate lawsuit involving rendition and a Boeing subsidiary.

Hide the children, but we agree with Mr. Obama that the President has inherent Article II Constitutional powers that neither the judiciary nor statutes like FISA can impinge upon. The FISA appeals court said as much in a decision released in January, as did Attorney General Eric Holder during his confirmation hearings. It's reassuring to know the Administration is refusing to compromise core executive-branch prerogatives, especially on war powers.

Then again, we are relearning that the "Imperial Presidency" is only imperial when the President is a Republican. Democrats who spent years denouncing George Bush for "spying on Americans" and "illegal wiretaps" are now conspicuously silent. Yet these same liberals are going ballistic about the Bush-era legal memos released this week. Cognitive dissonance is the polite explanation, and we wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Holder released them precisely to distract liberal attention from the Al-Haramain case.

By the way, those Bush documents are Office of Legal Counsel memos, not policy directives. They were written in the immediate aftermath of a major terrorist attack, when more seemed possible, and it would have been irresponsible not to explore the outer limits of Presidential war powers in the event of a worst-case scenario. Based on what we are learning so far about Mr. Obama's policies, his Administration would do the same.

Link.

I voted for and backed Obama because I was under the impression that his administration would put to rest, once and for all, this stupid Cheney-esque philosophy that the President is above the checks and balances that have allowed this country to prosper since its conception. There really is no excuse for Obama's support of this policy.
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Nice to see a handful of patriots working for this President.

Careful of your trolling.. this president admits he supports wiretapping.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
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Yup, so far they have been pretty disappointing in regards to warrantless wiretapping. As I understand it, though, these policies are still under review by the new administration. My only hope is that their position may change once they've had a chance to fully review the policy. I'm not holding my breath, though. :(
 

RichardE

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Dec 31, 2005
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Glad that Obama is still doing what is needed to be done to protect the western way of life. :beer: for Obama.

Classified information should be at the discretion of the executive branch. The only people who bitch otherwise are journalists looking for stories and getting stonewalled. sorry, go get your pulitzer somewhere else that doesn't put American lives in danger.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Pretty much every liberal commentator I see has criticism of Obama for his not providing enough 'change' from the Bush administration on these matters.

I wonder if you read them - given that the article you selected is the right-wing nutty WSJ editorial board. Try www.commondreams.org for far better commentary.

For one example, the excellent Glenn Greenwald, who was a national leader on the Bush abuses, has been quite critical of Obama on this.

Now, we do have to say, it's not like Bush was Hitler in the sense that you have to simple oppose every detail of his policies - and even Hitler that wasn't the case.

There are going to be some 'extreme situation' measures the President has - the thing was, the Bush administration appeared quite willing to use those as far more common, to set precedents that led to the potential for the mass detaining of American citizens who tried to protest, for example - not that much of what he actually did wasn't way over the line.

I think what people want is some stronger checks on the president in *abusing* those powers.

Frankly, among many examples, the wholesale 'purchase' of prisoners, such as paying $5,000 to Afghan warlords for whoever they cared to hand over, creating thousands of prisoners with effectively no real evidence against them, able to be detained indefinitely, was a travesty.

It reminds me a little of how the Israeli Supreme Court, faced with the issue of the IDF wanting to use physical abuse, carved out a tiny exception for some physical coercion only in a ticking-bomb scenario - and the IDF quickly began using it on thousands of detainees without any such situation, as a regular practics, they could not keep the 'genie in the bottle' once they cracked the door.

So the test for Obama isn't quite that he simply repudiate anything the Bush administration did, but that he repudiate the power grab doctrines and create better limits.

IMO, noi torture at all, no indefinite detention without a fair trial (not just a mioitary tribunal), etc.

I think we may have to review some of the historical 'exceptions' and precedents in light of the potential for abuse by another Bush, and try to prevent abuse.

However, public opinion has little to say about this; Justice Department opinions can shift president to president, there are always John Yoo's, and the final say on the constitution's limits is the Supreme Court (currently stacked with some extremists appointed by people named Reagan or Bush), who rules after the abuses occur - and are faced with the doctring of Bush that the Court has no say in restrcting his authority. If you want to think Ginsburg is going to get a gun and go enforce her decision against the military practices...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,890
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Do you guys realize that Glenn Greenwald, one of the biggest liberal bloggers there is, has been slamming Obama non-stop for this? The article's contention that liberals are somehow silent on this is simply false.

EDIT: In fact when I just went to look at Greenwald's blog when this reminded me, on the exact same day the WSJ's hilarious editorial board is claiming the left is silent on Presidential power issues... Greenwald has about a 2 page long condemnation of Obama's presidential overreach. Nice job, WSJ.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: RichardE
Glad that Obama is still doing what is needed to be done to protect the western way of life. :beer: for Obama.

Classified information should be at the discretion of the executive branch. The only people who bitch otherwise are journalists looking for stories and getting stonewalled. sorry, go get your pulitzer somewhere else that doesn't put American lives in danger.

You have a hell of a lot to learn about how democracy functions, the vital role - recognized by even our founding fathers as they made the *first* bill of right press freedom for a reason - of the accountability of government to the public and the freedom of the press to say things for that purpose without the government allowed to restrain it.

You have a very anti-democracy view on the matter with your sarcasm portraying journalist as only sleazy traitors chasing selfish gain.

It's just so irresponsible and it's like you are beggnig for the propaganda levels of the '1984' book where the population is content receivng only the 'right' information.
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Do you guys realize that Glenn Greenwald, one of the biggest liberal bloggers there is, has been slamming Obama non-stop for this? The article's contention that liberals are somehow silent on this is simply false.

Sadly I had to post an article by the WSJ editorial board. Ignore the blatant partisanship in it, if possible.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Do you guys realize that Glenn Greenwald, one of the biggest liberal bloggers there is, has been slamming Obama non-stop for this? The article's contention that liberals are somehow silent on this is simply false.

Sadly I had to post an article by the WSJ editorial board. Ignore the blatant partisanship in it, if possible.

Why did you 'have to' do that? There are countless liberal articles bashing Obama for this, unlike the WSJ who 'praise' Obama for supporting the same abuses they supported.
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Do you guys realize that Glenn Greenwald, one of the biggest liberal bloggers there is, has been slamming Obama non-stop for this? The article's contention that liberals are somehow silent on this is simply false.

Sadly I had to post an article by the WSJ editorial board. Ignore the blatant partisanship in it, if possible.

Why did you 'have to' do that? There are countless liberal articles bashing Obama for this, unlike the WSJ who 'praise' Obama for supporting the same abuses they supported.

Cuz it was the only one I read. Sorry... :\
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Do you guys realize that Glenn Greenwald, one of the biggest liberal bloggers there is, has been slamming Obama non-stop for this? The article's contention that liberals are somehow silent on this is simply false.

Sadly I had to post an article by the WSJ editorial board. Ignore the blatant partisanship in it, if possible.

Why did you 'have to' do that? There are countless liberal articles bashing Obama for this, unlike the WSJ who 'praise' Obama for supporting the same abuses they supported.

Cuz it was the only one I read. Sorry... :\

Well, you confirmed the suspicion in my original post:

Pretty much every liberal commentator I see has criticism of Obama for his not providing enough 'change' from the Bush administration on these matters.

I wonder if you read them - given that the article you selected is the right-wing nutty WSJ editorial board. Try www.commondreams.org for far better commentary.

I wonder if anyone read it, given that Eskimo repeated my Glenn Greenwald reference.

While we're at it, I've recommended commondreams a number of times, and seen zero comments that anyone has done so. Will you go check that site for some diversity?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,890
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Originally posted by: RichardE
Glad that Obama is still doing what is needed to be done to protect the western way of life. :beer: for Obama.

Classified information should be at the discretion of the executive branch. The only people who bitch otherwise are journalists looking for stories and getting stonewalled. sorry, go get your pulitzer somewhere else that doesn't put American lives in danger.

Classified information most certainly should not be (and is not) at the discretion of the executive branch. To say that the courts and Congress could never compel the executive to release classified information to them would be dictatorial in nature.

So really, the only people who bitch are those who like to see three functioning branches of government.
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Do you guys realize that Glenn Greenwald, one of the biggest liberal bloggers there is, has been slamming Obama non-stop for this? The article's contention that liberals are somehow silent on this is simply false.

Sadly I had to post an article by the WSJ editorial board. Ignore the blatant partisanship in it, if possible.

Why did you 'have to' do that? There are countless liberal articles bashing Obama for this, unlike the WSJ who 'praise' Obama for supporting the same abuses they supported.

Cuz it was the only one I read. Sorry... :\

Well, you confirmed the suspicion in my original post:

Pretty much every liberal commentator I see has criticism of Obama for his not providing enough 'change' from the Bush administration on these matters.

I wonder if you read them - given that the article you selected is the right-wing nutty WSJ editorial board. Try www.commondreams.org for far better commentary.

I wonder if anyone read it, given that Eskimo repeated my Glenn Greenwald reference.

While we're at it, I've recommended commondreams a number of times, and seen zero comments that anyone has done so. Will you go check that site for some diversity?

Haha yes, because I'm such a partisan hack. It was on Digg... forgive me for reading it and reacting to it. You better make sure you have 3+ independent sources for everything you post too.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Haha yes, because I'm such a partisan hack. It was on Digg... forgive me for reading it and reacting to it. You better make sure you have 3+ independent sources for everything you post too.

I didn't say anything of the sort. Sorry for trying to give you a new good source to read.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE
Glad that Obama is still doing what is needed to be done to protect the western way of life. :beer: for Obama.

Classified information should be at the discretion of the executive branch. The only people who bitch otherwise are journalists looking for stories and getting stonewalled. sorry, go get your pulitzer somewhere else that doesn't put American lives in danger.

Classified information most certainly should not be (and is not) at the discretion of the executive branch. To say that the courts and Congress could never compel the executive to release classified information to them would be dictatorial in nature.

So really, the only people who bitch are those who like to see three functioning branches of government.

On the other hand we also need better checks on the massive abuse of the power to classify being used to hide things that should be public.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Nice to see a handful of patriots working for this President.

Careful of your trolling.. this president admits he supports wiretapping.

In the interest of national security most people do support wire tapping.

It becomes an issue when it is used in a manner that has nothing to do with national Security!

I am proud to say that I support government that cares about protecting it`s citizens!

To Quote-- RichardE -- Glad that Obama is still doing what is needed to be done to protect the western way of life. for Obama.

Classified information should be at the discretion of the executive branch. The only people who bitch otherwise are journalists looking for stories and getting stonewalled. sorry, go get your pulitzer somewhere else that doesn't put American lives in danger.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Nice to see a handful of patriots working for this President.

Careful of your trolling.. this president admits he supports wiretapping.

Of course he does:

"I mean, people forget the environment right after 9/11. You might remember there was a lot of folks saying, "How come they didn't connect the dots? How come they didn't take this piece of information? Or how come they didn't know this? Or how come that didn't happen?"

And all of a sudden, we -- we reacted and started putting laws in place to help us even find the dot, much less connect the dots, such as listening to terrorists' phone calls. And then we get criticized for connecting the dots. "



Somebody working for Obama realizes the danger of terrorism, and they don't want another 10 9/11s destroying their boss's socialist agenda.
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
7,044
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Nice to see a handful of patriots working for this President.

Careful of your trolling.. this president admits he supports wiretapping.

Of course he does:

"I mean, people forget the environment right after 9/11. You might remember there was a lot of folks saying, "How come they didn't connect the dots? How come they didn't take this piece of information? Or how come they didn't know this? Or how come that didn't happen?"

And all of a sudden, we -- we reacted and started putting laws in place to help us even find the dot, much less connect the dots, such as listening to terrorists' phone calls. And then we get criticized for connecting the dots. "



Somebody working for Obama realizes the danger of terrorism.

Like the memo Bush was handed a few months prior saying "terrorists plan to use airplanes in attacks"? Yeah, that really needed to be wrestled out of those darned terrorists... :roll:
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Nice to see a handful of patriots working for this President.

Careful of your trolling.. this president admits he supports wiretapping.

Of course he does:

"I mean, people forget the environment right after 9/11. You might remember there was a lot of folks saying, "How come they didn't connect the dots? How come they didn't take this piece of information? Or how come they didn't know this? Or how come that didn't happen?"

And all of a sudden, we -- we reacted and started putting laws in place to help us even find the dot, much less connect the dots, such as listening to terrorists' phone calls. And then we get criticized for connecting the dots. "



Somebody working for Obama realizes the danger of terrorism.

Like the memo Bush was handed a few months prior saying "terrorists plan to use airplanes in attacks"? Yeah, that really needed to be wrestled out of those darned terrorists... :roll:

Yeah, because 10% of 'how' also tells us the where and when. :roll:
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
7,044
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Nice to see a handful of patriots working for this President.

Careful of your trolling.. this president admits he supports wiretapping.

Of course he does:

"I mean, people forget the environment right after 9/11. You might remember there was a lot of folks saying, "How come they didn't connect the dots? How come they didn't take this piece of information? Or how come they didn't know this? Or how come that didn't happen?"

And all of a sudden, we -- we reacted and started putting laws in place to help us even find the dot, much less connect the dots, such as listening to terrorists' phone calls. And then we get criticized for connecting the dots. "



Somebody working for Obama realizes the danger of terrorism.

Like the memo Bush was handed a few months prior saying "terrorists plan to use airplanes in attacks"? Yeah, that really needed to be wrestled out of those darned terrorists... :roll:

Yeah, because 10% of 'how' also tells us the where and when. :roll:

Using your logic, why didn't Bush halt the presses and start wiretapping everyone and everything? Or did he just not "realize the danger of terrorism"?
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Yeah, because 10% of 'how' also tells us the where and when. :roll:

Using your logic, why didn't Bush halt the presses and start wiretapping everyone and everything? Or did he just not "realize the danger of terrorism"?

Manpower restrictions. Obviously it makes sense to start with Arabs.
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
7,044
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Yeah, because 10% of 'how' also tells us the where and when. :roll:

Using your logic, why didn't Bush halt the presses and start wiretapping everyone and everything? Or did he just not "realize the danger of terrorism"?

Manpower restrictions. Obviously it makes sense to start with Arabs.

I don't remember a single instance of wiretapping in the name of terrorism occurring before 9/11 to any race of people. And I like how you dodged the question I asked-- are you saying your beloved president was soft on terror from the get-go? Well golly gee.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,890
55,158
136
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Yeah, because 10% of 'how' also tells us the where and when. :roll:

Using your logic, why didn't Bush halt the presses and start wiretapping everyone and everything? Or did he just not "realize the danger of terrorism"?

Manpower restrictions. Obviously it makes sense to start with Arabs.

I don't remember a single instance of wiretapping in the name of terrorism occurring before 9/11 to any race of people. And I like how you dodged the question I asked-- are you saying your beloved president was soft on terror from the get-go? Well golly gee.

Dude, it's Winnar. He's just trolling you. You can't talk to him like he's a normal adult, he can't be reasoned with. Just call him a moron and move on. Hopefully sooner or later the mods will realize this and ban him, but until that day...
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: winnar111
Yeah, because 10% of 'how' also tells us the where and when. :roll:

Using your logic, why didn't Bush halt the presses and start wiretapping everyone and everything? Or did he just not "realize the danger of terrorism"?

Manpower restrictions. Obviously it makes sense to start with Arabs.

I don't remember a single instance of wiretapping in the name of terrorism occurring before 9/11 to any race of people. And I like how you dodged the question I asked-- are you saying your beloved president was soft on terror from the get-go? Well golly gee.

He's admitted so himself. But he learned the lesson of 911, unlike Zero who ignores it.