WoW vs. MDY Industries

[Oakenfold]

Interesting update on Ars Technica for those of you following this case.
It isn't looking good, MDY lost again. Yes, this program is for people that cheat in WoW, so they don't have to sit in front of a keyboard grinding and doing other stupid stuff that takes people forever and creates an advantage for those that wish to cheat.


Now that we have that out of the way, here's where the problem is:
"Blizzard argued, and Judge Campbell agreed, that when users violated the World of Warcraft EULA, they no longer had a license to play the game and were therefore guilty of copyright infringement."

"Copyright was never intended as an alternative mechanism for contract enforcement. If that theory is allowed to stand, it would dramatically strengthen end-user license agreements and create enormous liability for those who break them. That would eviscerate the first sale doctrine and create tremendous legal risks for firms and free software projects that reverse-engineered other firms' products for purposes of interoperability. MDY may not be the world's most sympathetic defendant, but there's a lot more at stake in this case than World of Warcraft bots".

Ars Article

 

[Newbian]

I am hoping Blizzard totally rips them a new one.

Finally nice to see game companies going after the scum of the earth.

 

[BudAshes]

Originally posted by: Newbian
I am hoping Blizzard totally rips them a new one.

Finally nice to see game companies going after the scum of the earth.

I think there are a lot worse people on this planet than people who enjoy hacking video games...

 

[Newbian]

Originally posted by: BudAshes

Originally posted by: Newbian
I am hoping Blizzard totally rips them a new one.

Finally nice to see game companies going after the scum of the earth.

I think there are a lot worse people on this planet than people who enjoy hacking video games...

We are talking in a game forum... there are none worse then botters.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: BudAshes

Originally posted by: Newbian
I am hoping Blizzard totally rips them a new one.

Finally nice to see game companies going after the scum of the earth.

I think there are a lot worse people on this planet than people who enjoy hacking video games...

no doubt. but i guess when your world is WOW, then i guess it's all relative.

 

[Newbian]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: BudAshes

Originally posted by: Newbian
I am hoping Blizzard totally rips them a new one.

Finally nice to see game companies going after the scum of the earth.

I think there are a lot worse people on this planet than people who enjoy hacking video games...

no doubt. but i guess when your world is WOW, then i guess it's all relative.

Eh, I quit a few years ago but it still applies since as my previous post showed.

 

[ZzZGuy]

This is in the states right? If so how would this apply to other countries? There are cases where charges can be pressed against people in other nations but I don't know if this would apply.

So, if this goes through then there is the possibility of being charged with copyright infringement (whatever that penalty would be depending on where you are) if you use a no-cd crack or mod the game (I'd guess even with approval unless it was in the EULA). If you want to think really evil, companies could word the EULA in such a way that there is no way you can't avoid breaking it and thus that company could press charges against whoever it wishes that have played their game. Someone review your game and give it a bad review? Threaten to press charges if they don't speak highly of your game.

 

[SneakyStuff]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
This is in the states right? If so how would this apply to other countries? There are cases where charges can be pressed against people in other nations but I don't know if this would apply.

"Batman has no jurisdiction" :laugh:

 

[Oakenfold]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
This is in the states right? If so how would this apply to other countries? There are cases where charges can be pressed against people in other nations but I don't know if this would apply.

So, if this goes through then there is the possibility of being charged with copyright infringement (whatever that penalty would be depending on where you are) if you use a no-cd crack or mod the game (I'd guess even with approval unless it was in the EULA). If you want to think really evil, companies could word the EULA in such a way that there is no way you can't avoid breaking it and thus that company could press charges against whoever it wishes that have played their game. Someone review your game and give it a bad review? Threaten to press charges if they don't speak highly of your game.

Yes the case is being tried within the US, I'm not sure how this would fly internationally, that's a good question. That's one way to look at what's at stake here, I've been looking at it as "if it's in the EULA, and you break the EULA then you are guilty of copyright infringement". At least that's the really scary argument to me that's coming out of this.

I like the example the article gives:
"choosing a screen name that didn't meet Blizzard's guidelines, would be an act of copyright infringement".

Just a heads up to all the l33t wow players with the name Chuck Norris, Blizzard is coming for you next!:laugh:

 

[skace]

Making me choose between my disgust for EULAs and my seething fucking hatred for hackers. Tough call.

 

[Xavier434]

You make a good point, but I think what will happen here is provide incentive to add/amend language when it comes to determining what is and what isn't copyright infringement. The real problem here is that there is so little definition or consistency on what can and cannot be done in the digital world. I mean, the basics are there already, but the details are so vague. This situation right here is a perfect example.

 

[SunnyD]

Did any of you actually read the articles involved in this case? This is setting a very - VERY bad precedent for the software industry as a whole. Let's tally up what this all means shall we?

- Regarding EULA's, now COMPANIES can be held liable for "end-user" actions with regards to software they sell, not the individual themselves.
How does this affect us? Well let's see, do you use DVDShrink? Or rip music from your own CD's? Now the companies that provide the tools to do so theoretically can be liable for YOUR actions. This isn't too different from idiots suing the gun company because their kid was shot by someone that happened to use a gun manufactured by said company... it happens yes, but it's one of the most asinine money grabs humans do.

- Regarding EULA's, this ruling pretty much validates EULA's as legal and enforceable even with seriously limiting terms. You can just about kiss all hope of using the argument "I bought the game, I can do whatever I want with it" gone.

- Regarding reverse engineering, well several laws on the books already seriously limit the scope of what can be done here. But the real precedent is that this ruling nearly puts the nail in the coffin for things like developing interoperable solutions. You want to see Exchange support come to GMail? The ruling paves a BIG path for Microsoft to treat Google like a blood-soaked rag doll in a pitbull's maw. All those "undocumented" pieces of code Google uses in Chrome, all the undocumented developer API's used in iPhone apps... same thing. You basically give up all your rights at the door in terms of innovation.

This is very sad indeed - we're watching rights slip away and what made humanity great turn into nothing more than a money grab.

 

[Anubis]

:/ i never really had an issue with people using glider o well

 

[ViviTheMage]

Originally posted by: Newbian

Originally posted by: BudAshes

Originally posted by: Newbian
I am hoping Blizzard totally rips them a new one.

Finally nice to see game companies going after the scum of the earth.

I think there are a lot worse people on this planet than people who enjoy hacking video games...

We are talking in a game forum... there are none worse then botters.

QFT! hopefully everyone who used the bots accounts will get banned.

 

[Juddog]

The glider people have been personally annoying (wow, this same guy has been mining the route from 7 AM this morning before I went to work, come home at 7 PM and he's still mining, go to sleep at 1 am and he's still there mining), but I feel this is a massive misuse of the DMCA. If Blizzard wants to ban people caught botting, then so be it, that's fine with me, but this seems a bit steep in terms of punishment.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Well let's see, do you use DVDShrink? Or rip music from your own CD's? Now the companies that provide the tools to do so theoretically can be liable for YOUR actions.

I think the deciding factor here depends on whether the product has a legitimate use. If the software developer can demonstrate a legitimate use for their software then the blame should fall solely on the user for abusing both products. Sounds fair to me anyways.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Well let's see, do you use DVDShrink? Or rip music from your own CD's? Now the companies that provide the tools to do so theoretically can be liable for YOUR actions.

I think the deciding factor here depends on whether the product has a legitimate use. If the software developer can demonstrate a legitimate use for their software then the blame should fall solely on the user for abusing both products. Sounds fair to me anyways.

Legitimate use argument: "To allow the end user to do whatever they want with the software."

You realize fair use goes away if the RIAA/MPAA decide to start putting EULAs in with CD's and DVD's right?

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Well let's see, do you use DVDShrink? Or rip music from your own CD's? Now the companies that provide the tools to do so theoretically can be liable for YOUR actions.

I think the deciding factor here depends on whether the product has a legitimate use. If the software developer can demonstrate a legitimate use for their software then the blame should fall solely on the user for abusing both products. Sounds fair to me anyways.

Legitimate use argument: "To allow the end user to do whatever they want with the software."

You realize fair use goes away if the RIAA/MPAA decide to start putting EULAs in with CD's and DVD's right?

Yeah really, Sony could have put an EULA on those rootkit CD's and got away with it, under this particular interpretation of the DMCA. It has other scary ramifications as well, and sets a very bad legal precedent.

 

[Oakenfold]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Did any of you actually read the articles involved in this case? This is setting a very - VERY bad precedent for the software industry as a whole. Let's tally up what this all means shall we?

- Regarding EULA's, now COMPANIES can be held liable for "end-user" actions with regards to software they sell, not the individual themselves.
How does this affect us? Well let's see, do you use DVDShrink? Or rip music from your own CD's? Now the companies that provide the tools to do so theoretically can be liable for YOUR actions. This isn't too different from idiots suing the gun company because their kid was shot by someone that happened to use a gun manufactured by said company... it happens yes, but it's one of the most asinine money grabs humans do.

- Regarding EULA's, this ruling pretty much validates EULA's as legal and enforceable even with seriously limiting terms. You can just about kiss all hope of using the argument "I bought the game, I can do whatever I want with it" gone.

- Regarding reverse engineering, well several laws on the books already seriously limit the scope of what can be done here. But the real precedent is that this ruling nearly puts the nail in the coffin for things like developing interoperable solutions. You want to see Exchange support come to GMail? The ruling paves a BIG path for Microsoft to treat Google like a blood-soaked rag doll in a pitbull's maw. All those "undocumented" pieces of code Google uses in Chrome, all the undocumented developer API's used in iPhone apps... same thing. You basically give up all your rights at the door in terms of innovation.

This is very sad indeed - we're watching rights slip away and what made humanity great turn into nothing more than a money grab.

+1, I'm glad you read the article. That's why I continue to post this story, it is indeed very very frightening the precedent that this is setting. Lots of people have trouble getting past the whole "cheating" thing, that's what Blizzard wants people to focus on, and they've done a helluva a job with that judge (i.e. is it just me or does it make you really scared too that we've got tards in positions of such power?).

 

[mindcycle]

Wow, lets hope the ruling is appealed. If you can be fined for copyright violation by breaking some minute detail of a EULA or Terms of Service, like a screen name, then something is seriously wrong. I'm sure something that extreme is unlikely to happen, but it is scary to think that court decisions are being made that not only take more consumer rights away, but are based on apparent cash grabs by large corporation like SunnyD pointed out.

The whole literal vs. non-literal elements seems like a convenient way of bringing copyright infringement into play where clearly it's not applicable. But I guess the article already points that out. It's just disheartening to read about something like that.

..and to think that there are those of us who think piracy is the main problem facing PC gaming nowadays.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
- Regarding EULA's, now COMPANIES can be held liable for "end-user" actions with regards to software they sell, not the individual themselves.
How does this affect us? Well let's see, do you use DVDShrink? Or rip music from your own CD's? Now the companies that provide the tools to do so theoretically can be liable for YOUR actions. This isn't too different from idiots suing the gun company because their kid was shot by someone that happened to use a gun manufactured by said company... it happens yes, but it's one of the most asinine money grabs humans do.

A few flaws with the arguments here. Owning a gun is protected in the US by the second amendment, so owning or buying a firearm by itself isn't an illegal act. Also, if a company sold the gun directly to a minor and violated any laws in the process, they could be held directly liable, as the act of selling to a minor can be considered negligent even though owning and selling firearms is not.

As for middle-ware and grey market software like this bot and various cloning software, they are not directly protected by law as legal under existing copyright law in the US, which is why providing software that enables others to break EULA or copyright has been interpreted as being directly liable. If this guy wants to make a living selling software that violates US law, he can always move his business to Antigua or the Caymans, wherever Slysoft is incorporated.

Originally posted by: mindcycle
..and to think that there are those of us who think piracy is the main problem facing PC gaming nowadays.

And to think there are those of us that don't realize piracy isn't an issue in a market segment where DRM is actually effective at preventing it. The sad realization is the garbage being discussed in this thread, gold sellers/botters/cheaters/hackers in MMOs, still rank higher than pirates on the overall trash hierarchy, as they actually PAY for their games and content. :laugh:

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
And to think there are those of us that don't realize piracy isn't an issue in a market segment where DRM is actually effective at preventing it. The sad realization is the garbage being discussed in this thread, gold sellers/botters/cheaters/hackers in MMOs, still rank higher than pirates on the overall trash hierarchy, as they actually PAY for their games and content. :laugh:

Lol. I knew that statement would get you posting on this thread. You're so very predictable.

You might want to go back and actually read what I said. I made a comment on PC gaming, not the MMO market specifically. The ruling the article talks about would effect more than just MMO's and WoW.

 

[Oakenfold]

Originally posted by: chizow
And to think there are those of us that don't realize piracy isn't an issue in a market segment where DRM is actually effective at preventing it. The sad realization is the garbage being discussed in this thread, gold sellers/botters/cheaters/hackers in MMOs, still rank higher than pirates on the overall trash hierarchy, as they actually PAY for their games and content. :laugh:

Let's stay OT, there are tons of threads about piracy and DRM, feel free to make a new one if you like but keep it out of this one. I'm asking this as a user, not as a mod.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Oakenfold

Originally posted by: chizow
And to think there are those of us that don't realize piracy isn't an issue in a market segment where DRM is actually effective at preventing it. The sad realization is the garbage being discussed in this thread, gold sellers/botters/cheaters/hackers in MMOs, still rank higher than pirates on the overall trash hierarchy, as they actually PAY for their games and content. :laugh:

Let's stay OT, there are tons of threads about piracy and DRM, feel free to make a new one if you like but keep it out of this one. I'm asking this as a user, not as a mod.

Ya seriously. We get it chizow. You have a personal vendetta against piracy. Just pretend that everyone here already knows what you have to say or voice your opinion elsewhere.

 

[Phew]

If Blizzard would make their game so that there weren't any mindless tasks worth automating, they wouldn't have botters/gold spammers.

I played WoW for years, then realized that 90% of what you do in that game feels like work. I shouldn't have to pay someone else so that I can do work.