Wow, the Germans had damn good pilots in WW2

[pauldun170]

The top scoring British ace on that list shot down 6 planes and 44 V1 buzz bombs, LOL.

So no, the kills AREN'T all fighters.

I made ace today...I shot down 1 glider, 2 reconnaissance balloons and 3 "assault kites" with scary pictures painted on them.

 

[Leymenaide]

The Sherman was not as shitty as some people make it out to be.

There was an interesting book I read many years ago called With Rommel in the Desert written by a German officer who'd served in North Africa. One thing I remember clearly is that the author said the Germans were terrified of Shermans when they first entered combat. It was very competitive with vehicles like the Panzer III and IV.

Later German tanks like the Tiger & Panther completely outclasses the Sherman but what people need to remember is that Europe was not swarming with German super-tanks. Most of the time American troops were in combat they were blasting away at German bunkers & pillboxes. In situations like that having lots of tanks is more important than having the best tanks because any armor support at all is invaluable. The Sherman's weakness cost some American tankers their lives when they were fighting heavy German armor. The fact that it could be produced in enormous numbers saved the lives of a lot of US infantrymen because it meant they were much more likely to have tanks to support them.

Tankers did not last long. Tanks on the front in Western Europe were being replaced in less than 48 hours. The problem was by the time the US crossed France and hit Belgium they were pulling guys small enough to fit in a Sherman off front line infantry units giving them a few hours to figure out how to drive then and sending them to die.
My Uncle was a tanker he did North Africa Sicily, Italy and the Ardennes he watched my uncle Joe die crossing a bridge just after crossing the Rhine.

Sherman’s could not take out a Panzer at point blank range. They could and did knock off tracks.
Sherman’s did provide fast infantry support. We had lots of them and had their roll.
Patton vetoed a heavy tank for the European war. He wanted lots of what they could produce and produce fast. Patton also sent tanks well ahead of the infantry seizing ground and making retreat hell for the Germans.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Heck Tigers might the actual reason (or a big part of the reason) why Germans lost the war. They just weren't able to get them to places, produce them fast enough or maintain them/fix them.

Do people on ATOT even read history and attempt to understand the role of manufacturing in the ability to wage war? The war in Europe was OVER when the USA entered it. It's that simple. The Panther was a better tank than the Tiger and and early Panzers were about on par with the Shermans and way better than the T-34. Germany did not lose on quality, they lost on production. Even if the Germans had not spend so much money on the over-rated Tiger it would not have meant jack shit to the outcome of the war or even how long they were able to last. The Russian T-34 and the American Sherman were manufactured in such volume that they would have overwhelmed the German tanks on numbers alone. A 12:1 kill ratio looks good on paper until you realize that you're facing 50:1 in the field, then it just works out to a noble death. Germany NEVER had CLOSE to the manufacturing capabilities to win the war against the industrial might of the USA and Russia even if they concentrated on their cheapest, most inexpensive and most easily manufactured designs throughout the entire war. If Germany never made a single Tiger and stuck with the older, more easily produced designs like the Panzer II and Panzer III they were still doomed.

 

[PowerYoga]

It took something like 6 shermans to knock out a tiger because they needed flanking shots. There was a history channel special on tank mechanics in the european theater, where the guy's job was to fix shermans and send them back into the field. He described the german shells punching through shermans like hot knife through butter, and part of his job was cleaning out the insides of shermans and painting over the coat of blood.

They knew they had vastly inferior tanks because almost every single one of the tanks would be knocked out and they had to fix them.

The sherman was a terrible tank, the only thing it had going was its mobility. They had mechanical breakdowns just as often, if not more often than german tanks which were described as "reliable", despite the early panther model's problems.

edit: of course none of that matters when the shermans outnumbered german tanks by about 15-1...

 

[iamwiz82]

Do people on ATOT even read history and attempt to understand the role of manufacturing in the ability to wage war? The war in Europe was OVER when the USA entered it. It's that simple. The Panther was a better tank than the Tiger and and early Panzers were about on par with the Shermans and way better than the T-34. Germany did not lose on quality, they lost on production. Even if the Germans had not spend so much money on the over-rated Tiger it would not have meant jack shit to the outcome of the war or even how long they were able to last. The Russian T-34 and the American Sherman were manufactured in such volume that they would have overwhelmed the German tanks on numbers alone. A 12:1 kill ratio looks good on paper until you realize that you're facing 25:1 in the field, then it just work out to a noble death. Germany NEVER had CLOSE to the manufacturing capabilities to win the war against the industrial might of the USA and Russia even if they concentrated on their cheapest, most inexpensive and most easily manufactured designs throughout the entire war.

I disagree. IMHO oil was a bigger factor. They could have produced Panzers to their hearts' content but they had no way to power them, same reason the Luftwaffe collapsed.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

I disagree. IMHO oil was a bigger factor. They could have produced Panzers to their hearts' content but they had no way to power them, same reason the Luftwaffe collapsed.

No, they couldn't produce much of anything once the Mustang entered service and Allied bombing began to decimate their industry which could not be replaced. Even at the height of their industrial might and even without attrition wiping out more of it week by week, they were NEVER EVER close to matching what the US and Russia could make.

 

[Gibsons]

Correct..
Its interesting how the design choices led each one to be very theater specific.

Hellcats decimated Japanese Aircraft but would get eaten alive in the Eurpean theater against at the altitudes typical of the western front.

In the hands of the Soviets at the lower altitudes it would probably do well (NOt saying much considering the Soviets were able to turn lesser fighters into absolute killing machines)

The P47 is one of those aircraft that only truly shines when a) you are WAY WAY up there at altitude b) You are using the aircraft to shield your self from canon\machine gun shells. Down low and at medium altitudes it's performance sucked compared to german aircraft. Tactics were extremely important flying that thing.

F4U had some tricky low speed characteristics.
Cant remember the assessment of the F4u vs German fighters but I believe that the FW-190 had the overall advantage in that the 190 pilot could dictate the fight.
In the Pacific theater, Japanese army fielded some plane that came close but by the time their more modern planes were fielded by the army the pilot quality sucked balls.

I think the Hellcat did okay in limited action in Europe (the RN used it) around Norway and the Med. I haven't read much about it though, I assume it was mostly lower altitude stuff.

I'm also not sure about F4U vs. LW. Later model F4Us (-4) probably would have fared pretty well, depending on altitude.

 

[ichy]

Sherman’s could not take out a Panzer at point blank range. They could and did knock off tracks.

Panzer just means tank. A Sherman could easily blow a Mk III or IV to smithereens. Panthers and Tigers, not so much.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_World_War_II_aces

Holy crap

You have to put into context who they were shooting down.

 

[ichy]

No, they couldn't produce much of anything once the Mustang entered service and Allied bombing began to decimate their industry which could not be replaced.

That's incorrect. German industrial production actually increased as the war went on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer#Appointment_and_increasing_power

By 1943, the Allies had gained air superiority over Germany, and bombings of German cities and industry had become commonplace. However, the Allies in their strategic bombing campaign did not concentrate on industry, and Speer, with his improvisational skill, was able to overcome bombing losses. In spite of these losses, German production of tanks more than doubled in 1943, production of planes increased by 80 percent, and production time for Kriegsmarine's submarines was reduced from one year to two months. Production would continue to increase until the second half of 1944, by which time enough equipment to supply 270 army divisions was being produced—although the Wehrmacht had only 150 divisions in the field.[76]

 

[BladeVenom]

You have to put into context who they were shooting down.

Agreed. Many of their opponents were still flying biplanes.

 

[PingSpike]

I like to compare Tiger tanks to German cars. And it's very clear Germans have not learned from the war.

Over engineering = overly complex for no apparent reason, not reliable, expensive to purchase and replace and PITA to work on/fix.

Germans love novel and complicated machines and apparently always have. I have a book on weapons throughout history and each time period has pictures of bizarre weapons with weird attachments and they all seem to be listed to be of German or Prussian design.

 

[ichy]

Agreed. Many of their opponents were still flying biplanes.

Shitty pilot training probably had a huge effect as well. The Soviet military had been gutted by Stalin's purges when WW2 started and I'm sure that affected personnel quality in their air force as much as it did in their army.

 

[pauldun170]

Shitty pilot training probably had a huge effect as well. The Soviet military had been gutted by Stalin's purges when WW2 started and I'm sure that affected personnel quality in their air force as much as it did in their army.

The purge of 37 resulted in a lot of talent "dissapearing". By the time of the winter war with the Finns, the Soviets had a tough time with the Finns.
The finns for cryin out loud....

When ze Germans double crossed the soviets and invaded in 41 they caught them off guard, but talent magically appeared everywhere throughout the USSR By 1942.
If you were not an ace, wiped out a german division with a fork or fended off artillery barrages with a tennis racket, stalin would send you to the "bad place"
It was very inspiring

 

[Gibsons]

The purge of 37 resulted in a lot of talent "dissapearing". By the time of the winter war with the Finns, the Soviets had a tough time with the Finns.
The finns for cryin out loud....

When ze Germans double crossed the soviets and invaded in 41 they caught them off guard, but talent magically appeared everywhere throughout the USSR By 1942.
If you were not an ace, wiped out a german division with a fork or fended off artillery barrages with a tennis racket, stalin would send you to the "bad place"
It was very inspiring

The Sov penal battalions were indeed a very bad place to be.

 

[ichy]

The purge of 37 resulted in a lot of talent "dissapearing". By the time of the winter war with the Finns, the Soviets had a tough time with the Finns.
The finns for cryin out loud....

The Finns were tough as nails so I wouldn't laugh them off. Still pretty pathetic that the Soviets did so poorly with such a huge numerical advantage though. I always thought it was shameful how the free world did nothing for Finland and then gave them the shaft at the end of WW2.

 

[Gintaras]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKLaJDIoWfI

 

[randomrogue]

Finland and the Finns shouldn't be laughed off. They will fuck you up. I think what happened up in Scandinavia was pretty sad. Norway for example got abandoned when France fell, pretty much backstabbed by Sweden, but they were the longest to hold out against the Germans.

 

[Exterous]

The Spitfire was probably the best all around dog fighter. The real beauty of the Mustang was its long range, making it very useful as a bomber escort.

The Luftwaffe had some impressive fighters in the BF-109 and Focke-Wolf FW-190. Both of which were a match for what the allies had at the time. Spitfires were relatively new in 1940 and the RAF was relying heavily on the older Hawker Hurricanes. The Germans underestimated the determination of the British though, and their radar. The other problem was lack of long range bombers. Most of the raids focused on the south of England, while most of the industry was in the north. Fighters also lacked the range necessary to escort bombers much further north.

one of the biggest issues was hitlers decision to switch from destroying the RAF to bombing england into submission after an errant bombing of Germany by the rRAF

from 1940 -1945, US alone built:
- 141 aircraft carriers

The numbers of carriers is a bit misleading. Most (100 or so) were cheap CVEs with limited combat capability

 

[Remobz]

Best WW2 pilot was Hans-Ulrich Rudel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

Best WW1 pilot was Werner Voss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Voss

 

[phucheneh]

Finland and the Finns shouldn't be laughed off. They will fuck you up. I think what happened up in Scandinavia was pretty sad. Norway for example got abandoned when France fell, pretty much backstabbed by Sweden, but they were the longest to hold out against the Germans.

The Finns invented the molotov cocktail.

...to destroy tanks. If that's not ballsy (and slightly genius- for a time, it did work), I dunno what is.

Germans love novel and complicated machines and apparently always have. I have a book on weapons throughout history and each time period has pictures of bizarre weapons with weird attachments and they all seem to be listed to be of German or Prussian design.

Dude. You need to read more about both the Japanese and Americans during WWII. There was some pretty crazy shit. Obviously a lot of it didn't get used, but we still seriously pursued the development of some pretty odd stuff.

Pigeon-guided missile?

Bat bomb? ...literally a bomb casing full of bats; also there was a cat bomb...we did weird shit with animals.

The Soviets had the anti-tank dog, though. And later, kamikaze dolphins.

 

[adlep]

Best WW2 pilot was Hans-Ulrich Rudel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

Best WW1 pilot was Werner Voss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Voss

Bubbie was still better.

Also, the only reason why Nazis lost the war is because of the Hitler himself. He stalled the ME-262 by a year by insisting that the thing becomes a bomber...He also did not like the Stg44 and he banned it for like a year as well...

Also, I somewhat disagree about the statement that says about Germans doing impractical science projects during the WW2...
Actually most of their inventions were very practical and they evolved into weapon systems that we know today...
Like:
Panther -> Leopard 1 -> MBT70 ("joint project" but really German with Americans copying) -> M1 Abrams -> Leopard 2
Now before you say that M1 is not German know that the thing actually uses ze German cannon 🙂
The concept of the "assault rifle"
Jet planes
Rockets, etc, etc

 

[phucheneh]

People talk a lot about the Me-262, and how we're lucky they didn't start developing it earlier, that we were able to destroy most of them on the ground, ect.

But it seems like the stuff I've read generally painted a picture of it not being terribly effective. It was definitely not a dogfighter; success seemed to depend upon using guerilla tactics on big targets (bombers). And I think they still had a hell of hard time doing that.

Granted, a sky full of them would've been fucking terrifying, especially to a bomber crew, whose escorts would be rendered pretty worthless.

 

[jagec]

Finland and the Finns shouldn't be laughed off. They will fuck you up. I think what happened up in Scandinavia was pretty sad. Norway for example got abandoned when France fell, pretty much backstabbed by Sweden, but they were the longest to hold out against the Germans.

Simo Häyhä...accept no substitute.

I understand that Norway is still a bit bitter about Sweden's behavior in WW2.

 

[Exterous]

People talk a lot about the Me-262, and how we're lucky they didn't start developing it earlier, that we were able to destroy most of them on the ground, ect.

But it seems like the stuff I've read generally painted a picture of it not being terribly effective. It was definitely not a dogfighter; success seemed to depend upon using guerilla tactics on big targets (bombers). And I think they still had a hell of hard time doing that.

Granted, a sky full of them would've been fucking terrifying, especially to a bomber crew, whose escorts would be rendered pretty worthless.

I think the issue was high speed passes at the bombers. The fighter escorts couldn't engage them and they moved too fast for the manually served machine guns on the bombers. Unless they did something stupid or someone got lucky they were probably the safest pilots in the air. At one point something like 40 Me 262s fought ~2,000 fighters and bombers and were quite successful despite the lopsided odds.

A 262 pilot was pretty safe from the enemy due to a massive difference in cruising speed. This did make it difficult to fight other fighters due to rapid closing speeds and lowered maneuverability

Edit:

On March 18th, 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They managed to shoot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me -262s.

http://www.collingsfoundation.org/ma_me262_hist.htm