WoW revenue down 54% in seven months

[Chiropteran]

The potential for a gear upgrade is one part of it, yes.

But the fact remains that you enjoyed that time you spent raiding with your guild and the introduction of a new tier doesn't change that, unless you are in possession of a time machine.

Let me spell it out for you.

If raiding gear you get is the best gear you can get even 12 months later, it has a certain value, we'll call it X.

On the other hand, if raiding gear is only the best gear you can get for 1 month, before welfare epics are introduced which are superior AND easier to get, the value of your raid gear is diminished to some fraction of X.

Take for example, Azuresong Mageblade.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=17103/azuresong-mageblade#comments

In classic WoW this was an amazing item. It was arguably the best weapon for a DPS caster until AQ40, which was two tiers higher and not released until some 1.5 years later, and it dropped on an optional boss that many guilds skipped completely ( http://www.wowhead.com/item=21622 ), and much harder to obtain.

It might take months of raiding to win a Mageblade, but if you had one in classic WoW you were essentially set for a caster 1-hander, up until much later when some upgrades showed up in Naxx. And it's not like original Naxx was a free epics cakewalk, far from it. You still had to gear up in MC and BWL before seriously progressing in Naxx.

This was a great thing, and gave players an incentive to deal with BS of organizing a large raid and all the logistical problems associated- the items you got had a real value because you didn't just throw them away a couple months later.

These days, at best you might get a nice upgrade that lasts you 4-5 months before welfare epics are released that are better. It's just not worth the hassle and effort to get an item a couple months early.

And no, you don't need a time machine to know that blizzard is going to release a new joke of a raid in LFR each time they add content, it's the way they work and they have shown no signs of changing the pattern.

 

[chadashcroft22]

Why is that not enough reward?

Same could be said that 5 man and entry lvl raid gear aren't reward enough for playing so little? And nobody except scrubs care about achievements or titles so those points are mute.

I am curious do you play anymore?

 

[BoberFett]

This was a great thing, and gave players an incentive to deal with BS of organizing a large raid and all the logistical problems associated- the items you got had a real value because you didn't just throw them away a couple months later.

So in your mind, it's preferable to deal with BS as long as you can have an imaginary thing that other people can't have?

Blizzard has clearly found it profitable to change the mechanics and let everyone play the game rather than cater to the very vocal minority of addicts.

 

[BoberFett]

Same could be said that 5 man and entry lvl raid gear aren't reward enough for playing so little? And nobody except scrubs care about achievements or titles so those points are mute.

I am curious do you play anymore?

LOL, so only "scrubs" care about imaginary bragging rights such as achievements and titles. Real men care about... different imaginary bragging rights?

What exactly do you want out of a game?

 

[chadashcroft22]

Blizzard has clearly found it profitable to change the mechanics and let everyone play the game rather than cater to the very vocal minority of addicts.

Clearly you never looked at the op. They are bleeding subs profusely and putting on bandaids to fix it like catering to casuals by making it rain epics in hopes it slows down. That has backfired clearly but casuals are to busy switching games like gw2 to even notice.

 

[chadashcroft22]

LOL, so only "scrubs" care about imaginary bragging rights such as achievements and titles. Real men care about... different imaginary bragging rights?

What exactly do you want out of a game?

Who's bragging about anything? Are you assuming because an dedicated raider puts in 10-20x the effort as a casual and would have better gear they are immediately bragging? Assumptions are like what again?

 

[Chiropteran]

So in your mind, it's preferable to deal with BS as long as you can have an imaginary thing that other people can't have?

Blizzard has clearly found it profitable to change the mechanics and let everyone play the game rather than cater to the very vocal minority of addicts.

Huh?

The mechanics have not changed. You still get better items from raiding than you do from 5 mans.

What has changed is that it used to be the effort put into raiding meant that you got some best in slot items that remained as such for a good 9 months to a year or more. Now your raiding items become obsolete after 3-5 months.

The ENTIRE GAME is about dealing with BS to earn imaginary things, whether it's grinding daily quests over and over, doing long quest chains, farming 5 man dungeons, farming gold for crafted items... or raiding. So no, blizzard didn't change the mechanic, it still works like that.

What was changed was that the imaginary stuff you get, regardless of how you get it, becomes obsolete and sub-par very quickly, instead of lasting for a good year or longer. When something takes hours and hours of game time to earn, in my mind it needs to last a good length of time to be worthwhile. The way the game is now, it just feels like an endless treadmill because anything earned becomes obsolete on the next content patch.

In vanilla this wasn't the case, the release of naxx, for example, didn't instantly make all MC BWL and AQ40 gear obsolete, because while the Naxx gear was better it was a lot harder to get, and in most cases you essentially had to farm up MC or BWL level gear first just to fill your role properly in a Naxx raid.

 

[Veliko]

This was a great thing, and gave players an incentive to deal with BS of organizing a large raid and all the logistical problems associated- the items you got had a real value because you didn't just throw them away a couple months later.

These days, at best you might get a nice upgrade that lasts you 4-5 months before welfare epics are released that are better. It's just not worth the hassle and effort to get an item a couple months early.

If the notion of someone else having the same gear as you 4-5 months down the line puts you off playing a computer game, then that's a problem that exists entirely in your head.

Why bother getting a girlfriend when you can just hire a prostitute instead?
Why bother watching a film when you can just read about it on Wiki?
Why bother reading a book when you can just read the last page?

I mean, it's all about the end result right...?

And no, you don't need a time machine to know that blizzard is going to release a new joke of a raid in LFR each time they add content, it's the way they work and they have shown no signs of changing the pattern.

You missed the point.

If I spent however many weeks/months doing a raid, then those weeks/months are full of happy memories.

When a new tier is released, those happy memories do not suddenly vanish just because some players I've never met before can get the same gear by running 5-man dungeons.

 

[Veliko]

What has changed is that it used to be the effort put into raiding meant that you got some best in slot items that remained as such for a good 9 months to a year or more. Now your raiding items become obsolete after 3-5 months.

Diddums.

You sound like a very jealous and bitter person.

Thank heavens that Blizzard aren't listening to people like you.

 

[AViking]

Veliko it still sounds like you haven't played the game. You're also getting desperate to argue with people if you are seriously comparing in game gear equality to prostitution.

 

[Veliko]

Veliko it still sounds like you haven't played the game.

Could you expand on this, please?

Precisely what does a WoW player 'sound' like?

You're also getting desperate to argue with people if you are seriously comparing in game gear equality to prostitution.

I was responding to someone who is adamant that raiding is all about the end-product. I provided three examples of things that show how daft that viewpoint is.

 

[Aikouka]

If the notion of someone else having the same gear as you 4-5 months down the line puts you off playing a computer game, then that's a problem that exists entirely in your head.

Why bother getting a girlfriend when you can just hire a prostitute instead?
Why bother watching a film when you can just read about it on Wiki?
Why bother reading a book when you can just read the last page?

I mean, it's all about the end result right...?

Posting your rubbish analogies twice doesn't make them pertain any more to this discussion. You first used them against me earlier in my post directed toward Smack in how I discussed that if the experience was the reason to run a raid dungeon, then why would people have any motivation to run it more than once?

Honestly, I would argue that the game has devolved more and more toward Smack actually being right. People used to care about the gear for more than just the existing raid because you needed it for forthcoming dungeons, and it was effectively your achievement. There were no achievements until The Burning Crusade. How did I show that I beat all those bosses? I could easily link the loot, which is also how I automatically got the achievement. I kept a lot of that loot for the longest time, because it meant something to me. In regard to the whole devolving comment, my entire guild quit raiding Dragon Soul once we beat heroic Deathwing. We had no more reason to do it! Of course, that was a final raid of an expansion, which meant there was no upcoming content at the same level.

What's really odd about this silly little debate is that I get called "selfish" for wanting someone to experience the same elation that you get for actually earning an item. I remember how my surprised remark at the heroic agility cape off Rhyolith in Firelands became a sort of running guild joke. I said in this low, raspy voice, "Mah babeh!" ...man, that cape was really good. :wub:

 

[Veliko]

Posting your rubbish analogies twice doesn't make them pertain any more to this discussion. You first used them against me earlier in my post directed toward Smack in how I discussed that if the experience was the reason to run a raid dungeon, then why would people have any motivation to run it more than once?

Honestly, I would argue that the game has devolved more and more toward Smack actually being right. People used to care about the gear for more than just the existing raid because you needed it for forthcoming dungeons, and it was effectively your achievement. There were no achievements until The Burning Crusade. How did I show that I beat all those bosses? I could easily link the loot, which is also how I automatically got the achievement. I kept a lot of that loot for the longest time, because it meant something to me. In regard to the whole devolving comment, my entire guild quit raiding Dragon Soul once we beat heroic Deathwing. We had no more reason to do it! Of course, that was a final raid of an expansion, which meant there was no upcoming content at the same level.

What's really odd about this silly little debate is that I get called "selfish" for wanting someone to experience the same elation that you get for actually earning an item. I remember how my surprised remark at the heroic agility cape off Rhyolith in Firelands became a sort of running guild joke. I said in this low, raspy voice, "Mah babeh!" ...man, that cape was really good. :wub:

If you get more emotionally attached to digital representations of 'loot' than the time spent actually getting it, then that's your problem. I sold all of my precious gear to vendors the moment I didn't need it any more.

Those analogies I used are perfectly apt when used to show how absurd the mentality that it's all about the supposed end product.

 

[AViking]

Sorry but I still don't believe you even played the game.

 

[Veliko]

Sorry but I still don't believe you even played the game.

I don't believe you've ever kissed a girl.

Let's not go there
-ViRGE

 

[AViking]

That's relevant to this discussion?

What exactly is your experience with this game? I find it odd that you have spent such a disproportional amount of time posting in this thread without providing any kind of real substance regarding the subject. You just are trolling.

 

[Veliko]

That's relevant to this discussion?

It would point towards why you are so emotionally attached to non-existent items in a computer game, rather than valuing the time spent getting it.

What exactly is your experience with this game? I find it odd that you have spent such a disproportional amount of time posting in this thread without providing any kind of real substance regarding the subject. You just are trolling.

Outstanding stuff. Let's not forget that at one point you were claiming that it was WoW's graphics that were the reason behind the falling number of subscribers.

I first started playing the game partway through Burning Crusade, though I didn't start raiding until WotLK. I completed Naxx, didn't complete Ulduar, completed Call of the Crusade, and downed the LK. Did some bosses on heroic modes. I used the Elitist Jerks site for info along with the gear upgrade tool that they had. In fact, I had a spreadsheet that listed all the upgrades that would be useful for me, along with which boss they dropped from.

I was a raid leader in a casual guild for ages, before leaving to start up a raiding guild with some others. Despite some early success it ended up flopping and I joined another guild. I stopped playing partway through Cata as I was getting bored with the formula.

At no point was I ever bothered by the fact that others obtained gear the 'easy' way through dungeons or by doing Wintergrasp.

 

[justoh]

When new lfr raids open there are obviously also new normals and heroic versions of the same gear, so what in the fuck are people on about when they say lfr gear is as good or better than what normal or heroic raiders get?

The pace of new content is irrelevant. So what if you're replacing gear every 4-5 months? It remains relative.

 

[Chiropteran]

If the notion of someone else having the same gear as you 4-5 months down the line puts you off playing a computer game, then that's a problem that exists entirely in your head.

You keep bringing this up, but I have no idea why. I've said it before: I don't care one bit what other players are doing. Why would anyone care?

Seems to me like you are creating fake arguments in your head. It's called a straw man argument. Try using a valid argument next time, please.

You missed the point.

If I spent however many weeks/months doing a raid, then those weeks/months are full of happy memories.

No, you missed the point. If you have fun raiding 3 hours a night for 3 nights a week, certainly you would have 10X as much fun if you raided 15 hours a night for 6 nights a week, right? More is better, that seems to be what you are trying to argue!

Well, it should even be obvious to someone like you that more isn't always better. There is a certain level of time that the average person wants to devout to a game such as WoW, and forcing them to spend more doesn't always equal more fun.

And just to spell it out, since you seem to really be struggling with this, here is the difference I am talking about:

Classic WoW: Raid for a week, get a nice drop, it remains "nice" for 1.5 years.

Modern WoW: Raid for a week, get a nice drop, it remains "nice" for 1.5 months.

In practice, it took a couple months of raiding to get fully geared out in classic WoW, but once you were at that point you were set.

In modern WoW, it still takes a couple months of raiding to get fully geared out in a given tier's "real" raids, but once you have that set of gear you need to go back and do it again in another month or two because the gear you got isn't good enough anymore.

I was good with a raiding schedule of hardcore raiding for a few months in a new tier followed by a more relaxed time for the next few months, because my gear was as good as I needed. I am not good with modern WoW where gear becomes obsolete every content patch and more more more raiding time is constantly needed if you want to stay up to par. Notice I am talking about staying up to par with the content, not other players, don't try to misrepresent my position again.

The pace of new content is irrelevant. So what if you're replacing gear every 4-5 months? It remains relative.

Of course it is relevant. If you are working for months to get gear that you keep for a year, that is X time invested over that year. If you are working for months to get gear that you throw away in 3 months, that is 4X time invested over that year to keep at the same relative gear level. Not everyone wants to spend 4 times as much time at the game.

 

[Joeydubbs]

Let me spell it out for you.

If raiding gear you get is the best gear you can get even 12 months later, it has a certain value, we'll call it X.

On the other hand, if raiding gear is only the best gear you can get for 1 month, before welfare epics are introduced which are superior AND easier to get, the value of your raid gear is diminished to some fraction of X.

Take for example, Azuresong Mageblade.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=17103/azuresong-mageblade#comments

In classic WoW this was an amazing item. It was arguably the best weapon for a DPS caster until AQ40, which was two tiers higher and not released until some 1.5 years later, and it dropped on an optional boss that many guilds skipped completely ( http://www.wowhead.com/item=21622 ), and much harder to obtain.

It might take months of raiding to win a Mageblade, but if you had one in classic WoW you were essentially set for a caster 1-hander, up until much later when some upgrades showed up in Naxx. And it's not like original Naxx was a free epics cakewalk, far from it. You still had to gear up in MC and BWL before seriously progressing in Naxx.

This was a great thing, and gave players an incentive to deal with BS of organizing a large raid and all the logistical problems associated- the items you got had a real value because you didn't just throw them away a couple months later.

These days, at best you might get a nice upgrade that lasts you 4-5 months before welfare epics are released that are better. It's just not worth the hassle and effort to get an item a couple months early.

And no, you don't need a time machine to know that blizzard is going to release a new joke of a raid in LFR each time they add content, it's the way they work and they have shown no signs of changing the pattern.

Great post. I remember getting my azuresong mageblade on my mage and I think I used that a bit into BC...would get random tells from nearby players congratulating me, or asking how I got it etc..now that's an epic item. Since then gear has become largely consumable and is replaced so often. I can't remember the last time I got excited about a piece of gear 🙁

Add to this that LFR drops essentially the same pieces that normal modes do (with slightly less stats) and you get even less attached to your gear...LFR should drop blues or grant tokens or something...

 

[Veliko]

No, you missed the point. If you have fun raiding 3 hours a night for 3 nights a week, certainly you would have 10X as much fun if you raided 15 hours a night for 6 nights a week, right? More is better, that seems to be what you are trying to argue!

Well, it should even be obvious to someone like you that more isn't always better. There is a certain level of time that the average person wants to devout to a game such as WoW, and forcing them to spend more doesn't always equal more fun.

And just to spell it out, since you seem to really be struggling with this, here is the difference I am talking about:

Classic WoW: Raid for a week, get a nice drop, it remains "nice" for 1.5 years.

Modern WoW: Raid for a week, get a nice drop, it remains "nice" for 1.5 months.

In practice, it took a couple months of raiding to get fully geared out in classic WoW, but once you were at that point you were set.

In modern WoW, it still takes a couple months of raiding to get fully geared out in a given tier's "real" raids, but once you have that set of gear you need to go back and do it again in another month or two because the gear you got isn't good enough anymore.

So in classic WoW, what were you doing for the remainder of the 1.3 months after you were geared up, if not raiding?

 

[Veliko]

Great post. I remember getting my azuresong mageblade on my mage and I think I used that a bit into BC...would get random tells from nearby players congratulating me, or asking how I got it etc..now that's an epic item. Since then gear has become largely consumable and is replaced so often. I can't remember the last time I got excited about a piece of gear

I'm sure that's important when you're still 12.

 

[AViking]

Veliko your raiding experience consists of not clearing a few normal mode instances and doing a "few hard modes" (which ones?). If you linked your wow character I think we'd find that you did it after nerfs. Someone like you definitely didn't kill the Lich King until after they not only took away the attempt counter but nerfed the boss. Your experience is incredibly limited. You don't even have any experience during the times that some are comparing to.

Yet you discount everyone here and fail to understand what anyone is saying.

 

[Anubis]

there were a lot of people out there (myself included) who raided because we found it fun, we enjoyed the challange we enjoyed the content ext. most of the people i played with felt the same way, we wanted to be the best that we could be and to do that we raided quite a bit and were always trying to get better, Gear helps that along but was not essential to it. (this may have changed but for the longest time Skill > gear)

Yes it was always a good feeling when you had all the BIS items even knowing they would be replaced somewhat soon.

Even as someone who ground out rank 14 back in the day i never did it because i wanted to gloat over others that i had amazing gear or anything like that, i did it because i wanted to and had a blast doing it.

During wrath we had an awesome 30 of so people of the same mindset who had fun playing the game and all that. after wrath many stopped playing due to Rl or burnout or whatever, life happens. thats the reason i stopped playing, the people i enjoued playing with moved on and the game simply became less fun.

 

[Veliko]

Veliko your raiding experience consists of not clearing a few normal mode instances and doing a "few hard modes" (which ones?). If you linked your wow character I think we'd find that you did it after nerfs. Someone like you definitely didn't kill the Lich King until after they not only took away the attempt counter but nerfed the boss. Your experience is incredibly limited. You don't even have any experience during the times that some are comparing to.

Yet you discount everyone here and fail to understand what anyone is saying.

Well, let's see.

Even with your so-called superior experiences, you still tried to make the absurd claim that Blizzard need to update the graphics in order to save WoW and didn't understand that if you support older computers then you can support a larger pool of players.

So if experience is important in this debate, it doesn't seem to have blessed you with any kind of wisdom at all.

I also haven't discounted what "everyone" has said at all, and in fact have had several people agreeing with me, some of whom did lots of raiding themselves.