WoW revenue down 54% in seven months

[Chiropteran]

And when AQ and Naxx hit? New content invalidates old content, it seems you are entirely hung up on the fact that new content is now released faster.

You obviously never played during vanilla WoW if that is what you actually think. You are completely wrong.

When AQ and Naxx hit, Molten Core Guilds kept farmining Molten Core. With sufficient gear, they moved into Blackwing Lair and started collecting better gear. Maybe they hit AQ20 on the side. Eventually, eith good enough gear, they started going to AQ40, and eventually Naxx.

The old content was still completely relevant, and mostly required, though a strong guild could carry an under-geared player two tiers above where he should be, it didn't happen regularly.

If you want a game that stays static for long periods of time, you are inherently asking for the game to fail. Because you want to take 5-6 months breaks doesn't mean the rest of us want to.

So the game will fail instantly if any gear remains viable for more than a 5 month period? Glad you could share your sage opinion.

Is there any logical argument behind this statement? How do you explain vanilla & BC's incredible success, since they completely contradict your statement?

What? You don't care about future content, only old content? ... Let me look at your example...

"Care" as in it doesn't bother me. It bothers me that the old content is wiped out as obsolete. It bothers me that all the old item drops are instantly obsolete. It doesn't bother me that there is new harder content to do, that is a good thing.

Aren't we talking casuals? Because you've already changed the goal posts...

Aren't you following the thread? Do you really think I'd consider a 20 hour a week raid schedule as casual? Why are you even asking?

Wait, let me get this straight...new content invalidates old content?

Yes it does. The "are you new" comment just shows your ignorance of early wow. In vanilla or BC, new content did *not* invalidate old content, at all. You couldn't just skip Molten Core because BWL was released, you certainly couldn't skip BWL and go straight to Naxx. Nothing was invalidated by the release of a new tier.

These days, the opposite is true. You would have to be brain damaged if you thought you had to get full heroic level gear from a prior raid before hitting the new raid's LFR mode.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time

Nor I you, but you seem to have some incredibly flawed ideas about how WoW used to work before LFR existed.

 

[justoh]

Nobody in your scrub circle maybe. I was pushing around 37-38k raid buffed before I got the spear off Heroic LK 25 man. I never tested my DPS after, because after I did that, I was done with WoW. I had 100% best in slot.

So, someone doing 45k at whatever the current level cap is now, is pathetic.

Well, one of us is mis-remembering. Since you said that with so much conviction i doubted myself and tried to look for some old logs on the interweb because it was a while ago. This was the dps meter from the world first hc lk, where everyone had bis except for lk's drops. In a patchwerk type fight it would be a little higher, but 40k? plus that was done with a 5% buff. So how was 40k possible when wotlk was current, unless it was some novelty boss with buffs, which isn't exactly a reasonable basis for the claim.

 

[justoh]

I had an 80 twink mage with bis gear, enchants and gems that could do 200k+ dps on aoe trash pulls in 5 mans. Now that stuff scales to your lvl I'm sure his dps has gone down the toilet but I could 1 or 2 shot any lvl 80s in bgs back in the day. But that was wearing cata blues that had crazy item lvls.

But rogues in lots of armor pen. gear could easily do 40k dps back in wotlk. And I'm sure other classes could do the same as well.

Any proof that people did 40kdps on a straight dps fight without cataclysm talents and/or gear? With the 30% buff in icc the most i recall was like 18 or something, unless you're talking about blood queen. I'm fuzzy as well, but i did provide a screenshot of paragon's kill above and i'm curious how you could explain how people did 4x the dps of the number one guild. Just saying.

 

[Slammy1]

This is about what I remember, my biggest dps at the time was my frost dk AoE which was a crazy number for the time I can't remember now. I miss when the lock was great, I never was geared the best but I'd always top the dps/ilvl meters and the other locks would be asking what I did different.

 

[smackababy]

Well, one of us is mis-remembering. Since you said that with so much conviction i doubted myself and tried to look for some old logs on the interweb because it was a while ago. This was the dps meter from the world first hc lk, where everyone had bis except for lk's drops. In a patchwerk type fight it would be a little higher, but 40k? plus that was done with a 5% buff. So how was 40k possible when wotlk was current, unless it was some novelty boss with buffs, which isn't exactly a reasonable basis for the claim.

Lich King was a long fight with a lot of non DPS parts, or parts where the mechanics weren't exactly right. In a fight which more just DPS, I could easily hit 40k. In something like the Queen fight, if I didn't get bitten, I'd still be top 5 DPS.

Maybe I am remembering wrong, but I don't think so. I'd have to look it up. On Queen, if I was one of the first 2 or 3 bit, I'd top 100k (I know this for a fact).

 

[chadashcroft22]

Any proof that people did 40kdps on a straight dps fight without cataclysm talents and/or gear? With the 30% buff in icc the most i recall was like 18 or something, unless you're talking about blood queen. I'm fuzzy as well, but i did provide a screenshot of paragon's kill above and i'm curious how you could explain how people did 4x the dps of the number one guild. Just saying.

Not sure if you are replying back to the right person but that was a wotlk guild in wotlk gear at the time. My twink was wearing cata blues mostly that had 2x higher item lvl. See how their top dps was right around 100k? Well having basically 2x better gear and higher lvl cata weapon enchants it wasn't hard to do 200k dps in aoefest 5 mans.

But it was fun seeing peoples reaction when in the 5 man group my overall damage at the end was way more than the entire group put together. And tanks hated me because it was impossible to hold aggro.

 

[justoh]

Not sure if you are replying back to the right person but that was a wotlk guild in wotlk gear at the time. My twink was wearing cata blues mostly that had 2x higher item lvl. See how their top dps was right around 100k? Well having basically 2x better gear and higher lvl cata weapon enchants it wasn't hard to do 200k dps in aoefest 5 mans.

But it was fun seeing peoples reaction when in the 5 man group my overall damage at the end was way more than the entire group put together. And tanks hated me because it was impossible to hold aggro.

I'm reading 10k. I checked it twice.

 

[railven]

You obviously never played during vanilla WoW if that is what you actually think. You are completely wrong.

When AQ and Naxx hit, Molten Core Guilds kept farmining Molten Core. With sufficient gear, they moved into Blackwing Lair and started collecting better gear. Maybe they hit AQ20 on the side. Eventually, eith good enough gear, they started going to AQ40, and eventually Naxx.

The old content was still completely relevant, and mostly required, though a strong guild could carry an under-geared player two tiers above where he should be, it didn't happen regularly.

The big thing here that you ignore only because it makes your point valid - IF, if the vanilla guild could progress through MC, they'd see other content, otherwise it was MC (maybe some ZG) and that's it.

You seem to prefer that system where you get stuck, tough luck. See, this new wow where ToT was super hard for most guilds, they still got to enjoy some form of it in LFR. And when SoO dropped, they didn't have to go back and clear ToT Normal to progress, they were able to use the catch ups and continue into SoO.

Outside of personally glory, I don't get why anyone would prefer the previous system. And now that it seems you have less time, you seem to complain the opposite, ie you can't keep up.

So the game will fail instantly if any gear remains viable for more than a 5 month period? Glad you could share your sage opinion.

The time period for which gear is relevant is dependent on two specific things:
1) RNG
2) guilds success.

If my guild blows through normal HoF/ToES first week that gear is going to last us a lot longer than a guild who took 10 weeks to clear it. Yes, content is coming out faster, yes this seems to be your major complaint.

I never said it will fail instantly, but you are asking for less content. This concept blows my mind.

Is there any logical argument behind this statement? How do you explain vanilla & BC's incredible success, since they completely contradict your statement?

Hmmm...
New game on the market.
Strong advertising.
Casual friendly.
Strong following from Warcraft series.

You think it's success was due to having long gaps between content? That which only 5% ever got to see?

"Care" as in it doesn't bother me. It bothers me that the old content is wiped out as obsolete. It bothers me that all the old item drops are instantly obsolete. It doesn't bother me that there is new harder content to do, that is a good thing.

How is it obsolete if people still farm them through the LFG system? With the ToT nerf, people are now pugging it as where before it was Guild only.

Are you equally upset no one runs Naxx anymore? Or Ulduar?

Aren't you following the thread? Do you really think I'd consider a 20 hour a week raid schedule as casual? Why are you even asking?

Why are you introducing it into our conversation where you said this game is casual unfriendly. You basically proved the point of how casual this game is with your two Player examples. You don't have to dedicate all the time in the world stay with the average.

Yes it does. The "are you new" comment just shows your ignorance of early wow. In vanilla or BC, new content did *not* invalidate old content, at all. You couldn't just skip Molten Core because BWL was released, you certainly couldn't skip BWL and go straight to Naxx. Nothing was invalidated by the release of a new tier.

That archaic system gated content for people. I'd prefer to play with friends over elites but when a friend tried to join our guild, they'd never get to raid. There was no catch up for them. They couldn't pug MC, they couldn't move forward. Is that what you really want?

These days, the opposite is true. You would have to be brain damaged if you thought you had to get full heroic level gear from a prior raid before hitting the new raid's LFR mode.

And people who normally do heroic content don't even bat an eye at LFR. It is irrelevant to them outside of whining because casuals get similar gear to them.

Nor I you, but you seem to have some incredibly flawed ideas about how WoW used to work before LFR existed.

And it seems you have some flawed ideas of WoW with LFR. You obviously don't think people should have a means to catch up. You want your gear's value to last longer. Why both of these matter to you, I can't say I understand. I'll take the new WoW where I can catch up a new friend to us in a week, or if we need to fill a raid spot, we aren't spending months attuning/gearing/evaluating. And if your suggestion is too poach, nah after being in a guild that was poached to death I'd rather not go that route (creates a lot of bad blood.)

 

[justoh]

Lich King was a long fight with a lot of non DPS parts, or parts where the mechanics weren't exactly right. In a fight which more just DPS, I could easily hit 40k. In something like the Queen fight, if I didn't get bitten, I'd still be top 5 DPS.

Maybe I am remembering wrong, but I don't think so. I'd have to look it up. On Queen, if I was one of the first 2 or 3 bit, I'd top 100k (I know this for a fact).

If you had played wow even remotely seriously you would know that people quote training dummy dps or straight dps boss fights, not howling blast or multi shot 30% buff drakes before sindragosa dps. If you looked it up you'd see that 40k is a silly claim.

 

[smackababy]

If you had played wow even remotely seriously you would know that people quote training dummy dps or straight dps boss fights, not howling blast or multi shot 30% buff drakes before sindragosa dps. If you looked it up you'd see that 40k is a silly claim.

Except, we were talking about people in LFG doing 40k dps on boss fights, not people doing 40k on a training dummy. So, boss fight DPS is what I was referring to.

 

[Chiropteran]

The big thing here that you ignore only because it makes your point valid - IF, if the vanilla guild could progress through MC, they'd see other content, otherwise it was MC (maybe some ZG) and that's it.

Molten Core wasn't hard. Keeping an active raiding rooster for a 40 man raid was hard.

Now, if your whole complaint is that Molten Core was so impossibly hard that some guilds could just never pass it, I could accept that. I just don't accept that LFR free epic raids are the logical fix to that problem. You know, maybe if MC was a 10/25 sized raid from the start, it wouldn't have been so much of a roadblock. Maybe there needed to be a pre-MC easier raid that dropped slightly lower ilvl loot.

Molten Core being too hard for guilds to pass on their own certainly doesn't make me think that those guilds should have been boosted along into BWL. Do you think they would have even beaten Vael, if there was some sort of free epic boosting mechanic in vanilla?

Yes, content is coming out faster, yes this seems to be your major complaint.

You can keep repeating the lie over and over, it doesn't make it true.

You think it's success was due to having long gaps between content? That which only 5% ever got to see?

The gaps during vanilla were actually not as long as you think, and the gap between modern content isn't as short as you think.

There was a year from the release of the Icecrown raid and release of cataclysm, for example. Molten Core and Blackwing Lair were released 8 months apart, AQ40 released 7 months later, and Naxx 40 released 5 months later.

The gaps were actually not any longer between content, but the difference was that newly released content didn't immediately obsolete old content.

Are you equally upset no one runs Naxx anymore? Or Ulduar?

Are you? You are the one who seems to think it's a tragedy if only some 5-10% of players see new content, it logically follows you would be even more upset if 0% of players sees certain old content properly.

They couldn't pug MC, they couldn't move forward. Is that what you really want?

And if you couldn't pug in LFR, it would be pointless. But you can pug in LFR, because the difficulty is tuned ridiculously low. The tuning of difficulty has no bearing on my argument, you are just trying to change the subject.

As I said above, there are plenty of ways to fix difficulty without resorting to an LFR system that renders old raids obsolete.

 

[justoh]

Except, we were talking about people in LFG doing 40k dps on boss fights, not people doing 40k on a training dummy. So, boss fight DPS is what I was referring to.

They were talking about boss dps in a flex raid, actually, in current content, with current gear, and current talents. Anyway, off topic, predictable resolution.

Should add that now it's clear that you're some kind of troll poser and your criticisms contrived. Look at any raid video from wotlk that was made during wotlk's release on youtube and you'll see dps in the teens on bosses.

When i said 40k was decent at level 85 i was making a reasonable comparison. Ultraxion vs the original reference of immersus or whatever. 40k was about what you would have done with 400 ilvl. HC lk is a reasonable comparison from level 80, where the highest did say 15k without the icc buff.

If you'd pretend to do 40k by any relevant measure then you'd maybe also pretend to have a problem with casuals or lfr and pretend to think that it's the reason why wow is losing subs.

 

[railven]

Molten Core wasn't hard. Keeping an active raiding rooster for a 40 man raid was hard.

Now, if your whole complaint is that Molten Core was so impossibly hard that some guilds could just never pass it, I could accept that. I just don't accept that LFR free epic raids are the logical fix to that problem. You know, maybe if MC was a 10/25 sized raid from the start, it wouldn't have been so much of a roadblock. Maybe there needed to be a pre-MC easier raid that dropped slightly lower ilvl loot.

Molten Core being too hard for guilds to pass on their own certainly doesn't make me think that those guilds should have been boosted along into BWL. Do you think they would have even beaten Vael, if there was some sort of free epic boosting mechanic in vanilla?

As someone who was able to progress through those, no they weren't hard. But the guild I belonged to also wasn't my idea of a fun guild. The schedule we kept made it rather tedious and we only progressed because WoW was our part time job. I am grateful I experienced this because since then none of the content has been hard for me.

And by offering up the notion of splitting the raids you are introducing a new difficulty (and with it split ilvls.) Why not go the last leg and offer the "casuals" something easier - ie LFR.

Their progression to me isn't an issue. I'm not focused on what other guilds do, have done, will do. I focus on my guild and my members. And Vanilla/TBC would have been awful for the mix bag I got. WOTLK this is ultimately when they started to introduce difficulty levels. 10man were easy, and I could get 10 people to clear ALL of the content. We'd then move to heroics. Cataclysm had this notion of being hard, we had no issue. DS LFR to me was a joke, and I had members gaming the system. I don't like that kind of behavior.

Enter MoP, ToT was hard for some of us. It was a road block. In Vanilla that's it, wrap it up we're done. In MoP, well there is always LFR. Now there is Flex and we'd love for a Flex version of all the older tier stuff for MoP. We love the notion of Flex moving forward.

You can keep repeating the lie over and over, it doesn't make it true.

Gear gets invalidated with new content. Even in Vanilla. I'm not sure about your guild, but once BWL dropped we didn't go back to MC. We had no reason to. Only our alts would and this practice has carried on all the way up to MoP.

The gaps during vanilla were actually not as long as you think, and the gap between modern content isn't as short as you think.

There was a year from the release of the Icecrown raid and release of cataclysm, for example. Molten Core and Blackwing Lair were released 8 months apart, AQ40 released 7 months later, and Naxx 40 released 5 months later.

ToC was so easy, the gap from ToC to ICC felt like decades. Firelands was moderately difficult, the gap from it to DS was so short. DS was such a bore the gap from it to MoP felt like years.

MoP is barely a year old and it's had 3 tier sets.
Vanilla 3 tier sets in almost 4 years
TBC 3 tier sets in almost 2 years
WoTLk 4 tier sets in almost 2 years (one can argue 3 sets since Naxx was a rehash)
MoP 3 tier sets in <1 year.

Yeah, I'd say content is dropping a lot faster. The major difference between MoP and WOTLk/CATA since LFR is a staple through the whole expansion, they didn't bother to make catch-up dungeons.

The gaps were actually not any longer between content, but the difference was that newly released content didn't immediately obsolete old content.

The gap most certainly was longer back then. And the new content most certainly invalided the old content if you were in a guild that was clearing stuff in a timely manner.

Are you? You are the one who seems to think it's a tragedy if only some 5-10% of players see new content, it logically follows you would be even more upset if 0% of players sees certain old content properly.

This is your strawman. I can queue into any rank of LFR and get into a group. You're argument indicates those zones are vacant. People still need to catch up, that is what the LFRs are for. It isn't like they ding 90 and walk into SoO LFR. They get gear from all the other previous LFRs.

Even now, I'd argue more people are doing older LFRs than people were doing MC when Naxx40 hit. And you know I'd be right.

And if you couldn't pug in LFR, it would be pointless. But you can pug in LFR, because the difficulty is tuned ridiculously low. The tuning of difficulty has no bearing on my argument, you are just trying to change the subject.

As I said above, there are plenty of ways to fix difficulty without resorting to an LFR system that renders old raids obsolete.

You don't HAVE to do LFR. I personally don't run LFRs to catch people up. I do it old fashion because that is how you test someone. LFR doesn't teach skill. LFR is for those people who just want to jump on, run a dungeon/LFR maybe get loot log off - you know the casuals that your own article puts at <7 hours a week. Those people don't matter to raiders.

They only matter to people who sit here and try to validate their own existence as superior. "Why should they have to do a fraction of the work I had to do to get the gear I had?" Well they got the gear months after you, "doesn't matter, they should NEVER get to see that gear."

 

[Aikouka]

I think we both have different concepts of what "grind" means. Clearing new content to me is "grinding."

Has the idea of "grinding" gone casual now too? Unless we're talking about slutty dance moves, grinding is to constantly work away at something (usually in reference to metal). You can say that you "ground out a level" if you just sat there killing mobs in an area over and over, because it's a repetitious, menial action.

I did 40k at 80... I am baffled it has been 2 expansions and people still are barely out DPSing me...

Are you sure about that? 40K sounds way too high for single target at level 80.... I know I definitely hit 40K at 85 without any crazy buffs or extra targets, but I don't know what my highest single-target fight was. I'll have to see if I have any screenshots of Heroic Ultraxion. It's not 100% Patchwerk nor is it 100% indicative of perfect execution -- my guild used hero at the beginning, which could cost me an Adrenaline Rush cycle as I had to push my initial AR back.

 

[justoh]

Has the idea of "grinding" gone casual now too? Unless we're talking about slutty dance moves, grinding is to constantly work away at something (usually in reference to metal). You can say that you "ground out a level" if you just sat there killing mobs in an area over and over, because it's a repetitious, menial action.



Are you sure about that? 40K sounds way too high for single target at level 80.... I know I definitely hit 40K at 85 without any crazy buffs or extra targets, but I don't know what my highest single-target fight was. I'll have to see if I have any screenshots of Heroic Ultraxion. It's not 100% Patchwerk nor is it 100% indicative of perfect execution -- my guild used hero at the beginning, which could cost me an Adrenaline Rush cycle as I had to push my initial AR back.

Phew, glad at least one other person here has apparently played wow. Yeah, at 85 the best did like 50k on ultraxion. Maybe 55? 40k at level 80 is absurd. Remember, it was claimed in implied relevance to my claim to 40k being decent at 80, which it was, at 396 you should have been able to do 40k on ultraxion. That person is obviously lying through his teeth. Doing 3-4x as much dps as paragon?

 

[smackababy]

Phew, glad at least one other person here has apparently played wow. Yeah, at 85 the best did like 50k on ultraxion. Maybe 55? 40k at level 80 is absurd. Remember, it was claimed in implied relevance to my claim to 40k being decent at 80, which it was, at 396 you should have been able to do 40k on ultraxion. That person is obviously lying through his teeth. Doing 3-4x as much dps as paragon?

Oh you caught me... I've never played WoW.

Are you sure about that? 40K sounds way too high for single target at level 80.... I know I definitely hit 40K at 85 without any crazy buffs or extra targets, but I don't know what my highest single-target fight was. I'll have to see if I have any screenshots of Heroic Ultraxion. It's not 100% Patchwerk nor is it 100% indicative of perfect execution -- my guild used hero at the beginning, which could cost me an Adrenaline Rush cycle as I had to push my initial AR back.

It might be high, but I know on fights like Deathbringer and such, where it was pretty much a tank and spank, I was doing a lot more than 10k from the LK fight parse. This was with the 15% buff. Although, on our LK kill, I did nothing but DPS LK the entire time, as was the job of a hunter. >_>

So, I stated I recall doing 37k dps before I got my final upgrade, with a 15% damage buff. Well, that still puts me at around 32k DPS. 3 years later people are just now beating that? That is stupid.

 

[railven]

Has the idea of "grinding" gone casual now too? Unless we're talking about slutty dance moves, grinding is to constantly work away at something (usually in reference to metal). You can say that you "ground out a level" if you just sat there killing mobs in an area over and over, because it's a repetitious, menial action.

Well, the general term "grind" has always belonged to everyone. The amount of time involved doesn't change the process (just the end result.)

I grind crap for days, you grind it for hours, he for minutes.

I grind through heroics, you grind through normal, he through LFRs.

It's all repetitious, menial actions.

 

[yottabit]

Phew, glad at least one other person here has apparently played wow. Yeah, at 85 the best did like 50k on ultraxion. Maybe 55? 40k at level 80 is absurd. Remember, it was claimed in implied relevance to my claim to 40k being decent at 80, which it was, at 396 you should have been able to do 40k on ultraxion. That person is obviously lying through his teeth. Doing 3-4x as much dps as paragon?

Yeah it's hilarious how bad of a memory people have in regards to DPS

I've seen things like the aforementioned "I did more DPS in WoTLK" used for the 30-60k DPS range

I've seen people say "C'mon guys I did 100k (or 200k)+ in Cata"

I've seen people say "I was pulling 100k+ in MoP greens"

All of which are equally hilarious

 

[justoh]

Yeah it's hilarious how bad of a memory people have in regards to DPS

I've seen things like the aforementioned "I did more DPS in WoTLK" used for the 30-60k DPS range

I've seen people say "C'mon guys I did 100k (or 200k)+ in Cata"

I've seen people say "I was pulling 100k+ in MoP greens"

All of which are equally hilarious

I guess if we didn't laugh then we'd constantly be crying. I had a good laugh. The things people say.

 

[Tweak155]

Oh you caught me... I've never played WoW.



It might be high, but I know on fights like Deathbringer and such, where it was pretty much a tank and spank, I was doing a lot more than 10k from the LK fight parse. This was with the 15% buff. Although, on our LK kill, I did nothing but DPS LK the entire time, as was the job of a hunter. >_>

So, I stated I recall doing 37k dps before I got my final upgrade, with a 15% damage buff. Well, that still puts me at around 32k DPS. 3 years later people are just now beating that? That is stupid.

WotLK was the only expansion pack I seriously raided. While 10k sounds low (possibly before ICC buffs) it was generally the mark for weeding out bad DPS, 13-15k was on the higher end with the elite going a little above that (outside of AoE of course, and buff bosses). Of course this was on my server. I can't imagine it got doubled elsewhere though. You're really full of it or possibly remembering a number in a certain circumstance.

 

[Chiropteran]

And by offering up the notion of splitting the raids you are introducing a new difficulty (and with it split ilvls.) Why not go the last leg and offer the "casuals" something easier - ie LFR.

No, that isn't what I meant. I meant changing the number of players down, because the hard part of it was just managing a raid of 40. Not adding a new difficulty, except insofar as less raid/player management makes it easier.

WOTLK this is ultimately when they started to introduce difficulty levels. 10man were easy, and I could get 10 people to clear ALL of the content. We'd then move to heroics. Cataclysm had this notion of being hard, we had no issue. DS LFR to me was a joke, and I had members gaming the system. I don't like that kind of behavior.

25 man naxx was just as easy as 10 man, they were both a joke. It wasn't a difficulty selector, it was just a mechanic to cater to multiple guild or raid sizes. This is the first I have heard of cataclysm being hard, I thought it was one of the easiest expansions so far, about the same level of challenge as Wrath minus the tough ulduar fights like mimiron heroic.

Enter MoP, ToT was hard for some of us. It was a road block. In Vanilla that's it, wrap it up we're done.

That isn't really true though. In vanilla there were dozens of other things to do to gear up and make a given raid easier. In modern WoW, not so much, because gear ilvl is king.

Gear gets invalidated with new content. Even in Vanilla. I'm not sure about your guild, but once BWL dropped we didn't go back to MC. We had no reason to. Only our alts would and this practice has carried on all the way up to MoP.

Thats odd. You just said "t was a road block. In Vanilla that's it, wrap it up we're done." Here you obviously realize that farming Molten Core is an option to get geared up and progress through BWL. Try to think ahead when writing your posts, so you don't contradict yourself.

In any case, you did run Molten Core before BWL was released, no? The content was still required, was not obsolete, you just happened to time your farming early enough that you were done with it when BWL was released, which is cool. This is different from modern WoW, where you can come in now today and just go to the final tier LFR and skip everything before. You couldn't do that in vanilla, a new player needed molten core and/or zg gear to really be geared enough for BWL.

DS was such a bore the gap from it to MoP felt like years.

It was an 11 month gap, longer than the gap between any vanilla raids.

MoP is barely a year old and it's had 3 tier sets.
Vanilla 3 tier sets in almost 4 years
TBC 3 tier sets in almost 2 years
WoTLk 4 tier sets in almost 2 years (one can argue 3 sets since Naxx was a rehash)
MoP 3 tier sets in <1 year.

Yeah, I'd say content is dropping a lot faster.

You are listing tier sets instead of raids, that is funny way of looking at content. You also ignore the tier 0 dungeon set, and the tier 1.5 dungeon 2 sets, and the sets in AQ, and all the good offset gear.

Vanilla had Molten Core, Onyxia, ZG, AQ20, AQ40, BWL, Naxx, Azuragos, Kazzak, and the 4 green dragons. UBRS was also technically a raid. It had a lot more endgame content than ANY expansion after.

I think it's also worth pointing out that the leveling time of vanilla was a month or more for the average player, unlike the couple days it takes to hit cap after a new expansion release.

The major difference between MoP and WOTLk/CATA since LFR is a staple through the whole expansion, they didn't bother to make catch-up dungeons.

That is an odd way of saying it has less content, but I'd agree, it does have less real content.

The gap most certainly was longer back then. And the new content most certainly invalided the old content if you were in a guild that was clearing stuff in a timely manner.

Based on what again? 11 months between dragon soul and panda raids, how exactly is the 8 month gap between MC and BWL longer than 11 months? Are you into that new age math?

This is your strawman. I can queue into any rank of LFR and get into a group. You're argument indicates those zones are vacant. People still need to catch up, that is what the LFRs are for. It isn't like they ding 90 and walk into SoO LFR. They get gear from all the other previous LFRs.

At least you admit the truth. You just show up in the LFR and "get gear", you aren't even really doing the content. It's just a dumb time sink.

Even now, I'd argue more people are doing older LFRs than people were doing MC when Naxx40 hit. And you know I'd be right.

Of course you would be, LFR is the free epic button, obviously players are going to push that button as much as they possibly can. Not because it's fun necessarily, but because it's free epics.

You don't HAVE to do LFR. I personally don't run LFRs to catch people up.

People still need to catch up, that is what the LFRs are for.

Contradictory statements.

 

[smackababy]

WotLK was the only expansion pack I seriously raided. While 10k sounds low (possibly before ICC buffs) it was generally the mark for weeding out bad DPS, 13-15k was on the higher end with the elite going a little above that (outside of AoE of course, and buff bosses). Of course this was on my server. I can't imagine it got doubled elsewhere though. You're really full of it or possibly remembering a number in a certain circumstance.

I said, I could possibly be remembering incorrectly, but I know on single target fights with little mechanics, full raid buffed with 15% ICC buff, I was pushing 100k on Blood Queen if bitten and if I wasn't bitten until near the end, I was in the top 5 DPS. Granted, my DPS spiked a ton at the end of the fight (being a hunter and spamming kill shot with the bite and over 90% crit change is OP).

14k in full heroic ICC gear on a Patchwork fight seems very low. In order to beat the LK heroic enrage timer, 21 DPS (that is 2 tanks, 2 healers, which is hard in itself) need 5.7k DPS on LK the entire fight. You are targeting him maybe half the fight (unless you're a hunter and you get assigned to spec the extra range and attack him the entire fight), that puts the requirement at around 10.8k dps. IIRC, he has 108 million health.

My number could be off, but I remember doing that much DPS in boss fights, and I never played past WotLK.

 

[Phanuel]

I said, I could possibly be remembering incorrectly, but I know on single target fights with little mechanics, full raid buffed with 15% ICC buff, I was pushing 100k on Blood Queen if bitten and if I wasn't bitten until near the end, I was in the top 5 DPS. Granted, my DPS spiked a ton at the end of the fight (being a hunter and spamming kill shot with the bite and over 90% crit change is OP).

14k in full heroic ICC gear on a Patchwork fight seems very low. In order to beat the LK heroic enrage timer, 21 DPS (that is 2 tanks, 2 healers, which is hard in itself) need 5.7k DPS on LK the entire fight. You are targeting him maybe half the fight (unless you're a hunter and you get assigned to spec the extra range and attack him the entire fight), that puts the requirement at around 10.8k dps. IIRC, he has 108 million health.

My number could be off, but I remember doing that much DPS in boss fights, and I never played past WotLK.

You're mis-remembering like crazy man.

10k was your average 10 main ICC geared raider. 15-18K with the 30% buff was your 25man ICC heroic raider. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y2mgEAe0hY&feature=player_detailpage#t=328 That's LK and they're topping out at 14K with no buff in Heroic 25 man.

Here's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tHiR9UHlxg&feature=player_detailpage#t=294 Heroic 25 Lana'thel, 22K for a single mage, everyone else falling behind.

Saurfang is probably one of the best tank and spanks. Found another video of a Heroic 25 where they're doing 12K and down.

60K+ was possible in DS at the end on things like Ultraxion. 25 Heroic Ultrax http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7evz194SEo doing 55K and down.

I was doing 45K in heroics at 85-86 and then MoP scaling hit me full in the face and my subsequent dungeons while leveling dropped dramatically down to 30K by the time I hit 90.

 

[smackababy]

You're mis-remembering like crazy man.

10k was your average 10 main ICC geared raider. 15-18K with the 30% buff was your 25man ICC heroic raider. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y2mgEAe0hY&feature=player_detailpage#t=328 That's LK and they're topping out at 14K with no buff in Heroic 25 man.

Here's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tHiR9UHlxg&feature=player_detailpage#t=294 Heroic 25 Lana'thel, 22K for a single mage, everyone else falling behind.

Saurfang is probably one of the best tank and spanks. Found another video of a Heroic 25 where they're doing 12K and down.

60K+ was possible in DS at the end on things like Ultraxion. 25 Heroic Ultrax http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7evz194SEo doing 55K and down.

I was doing 45K in heroics at 85-86 and then MoP scaling hit me full in the face and my subsequent dungeons while leveling dropped dramatically down to 30K by the time I hit 90.

I may not be remembering, but I could swear I've done 37k somewhere and it might have been a Blood Queen fight I wasn't bitten until the end, but I don't think I'd spike that high, that fast.

 

[Phanuel]

Like, here's one of Riggnaros' infamous LFR Ultrax DPS races, http://www.twitch.tv/riggnarosbl/c/1083633. The fight is just about 2m:30s long and they end up at 55k and down.

And this was with 1-2 healers, 1 tank, the rest just cycling DPS cooldowns. Sure they burst like crazy in the beginning but it ends up at an average way back down where you expect it to.

I can't possibly see you having done an average DPS of 37K back in ICC except on AOE trash. Most expansions have seemed to follow a rule of 5. We topped out at like 600-800 dps in Vanilla, 2.5-3K dps in TBC, 12-15K in WotLK, 60K in Cata. And now we're looking at 350K+ in MoP.