Wow...closed ear headphones are great.

[mephiston5]

I just got my first pair, and I am hearing things in my music that were just to subtle to hear before. I am really very impressed.

 

[glen]

Yes, but, you cannot hear stereo with headphones unless it is a Binaural recording.

 

[glen]

Headphones with stereo recordings are sort of like watching a 3D movie without the glasses.

 

[kornphlake]

Yes, but, you cannot hear stereo with headphones unless it is a Binaural recording.

??? I have no idea what you're talking about, as long as you have the headphones on both ears it's stereo. Binaural will sound slightly more realistic but stereo is still stereo through headphones.

 

[glen]

??? I have no idea what you're talking about, as long as you have the headphones on both ears it's stereo. Binaural will sound slightly more realistic but stereo is still stereo through headphones.

Well, that is certainly what most people think.
It is not true however.

Stereo is the effect from your brain processing the different sounds in your left and right ear. While you will hear sound in both ears from head phones, unless the recording is binaural, it is no more stereo than a 3D movie is 3D without the glasses.

To process location your brain examines 3 things:
1. relative volume between the left and right ear
2. time arrival between the left and right ear
3. tonal difference between the left and right ear

This works with speakers because your left ear hears both speakers and your right ear hears both speakers. You don't get that effect with headphones because you cannot hear the left side in your right ear and vice-versa.

 

[glen]

Here, check out this picture:
http://www.eyetricks.com/3dstereo53.htm
With one eye shut, or your head tilted, it is not 3D - not even kind of.
It would be absurd to say it is slightly more realistically 3D when done right.
It either is or isn't 3D.
The same is true with stereo.
With the pictures, you can't even tell what it is unless you are perfectly aligned and get the 3D image. With Stereo, you can certainly tell a great deal more about the sound, but the "imagery" if you will, is either there 100% or not. There is no in between.

To hear this for yourself, google some binaural sounds and listen to them with headphones on. There is one here at wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording
If you are not following this discussion, try it out. You will probably be hearing stereo for the first time in your life and will likely be blown away.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...This works with speakers because your left ear hears both speakers and your right ear hears both speakers...

So much fail in so few words...
Speaker cross-talk smears the imaging. Listen to a properly assembled Sonic Holography system and you will hear as big a difference as you do going from stereo to binaural recordings with headphones.

 

[glen]

So much fail in so few words...
Speaker cross-talk smears the imaging. Listen to a properly assembled Sonic Holography system and you will hear as big a difference as you do going from stereo to binaural recordings with headphones.

Well, give an explanation or wiki article or something.
It is possible you are correct, but I have not heard the psycho-acoustic explanation nor anyone from the industry or recording industry say anything contrary to what I have said, so I think bare the burden of explanation.

Currently, the theoretical and experiential evidence is against you. Not to be hostel, 🙂.

I think maybe, unless you are the industry's next Stanley Lipshitz, in other words you are the next greatest living audio engineer in the entire world, you are simple wrong.

 

[glen]

Here you go, from, http://www.binaural.com/binfaq.html:
Why don't stereo recordings on speakers approach the realism of binaural on headphones? -- they're also two separate channels.

With any two signals fed to a pair of loudspeakers, whether stereo or binaural, there will be mixing in the room of the left and right channel sounds. The left channel sound reaches the right ear with a short delay around the front of the head, and the right channel sound reaches the left ear in a similar way. This acoustic mixing destroys much of the realism of stereo recordings and is being addressed now via a number of different "transaural" processes that attempt to cancel out the extra signal paths either in the original recording or in the final listening situation.

However, listening to stereo source material on headphones doesn't give the proper effect either, because the mikes are usually placed much further apart than the average seven inches of our ears, and without the pinna and other features of a dummy head. The end result is that most stereo recordings sound as though half the band or orchestra is huddled at your left ear inside your head and the other half is piled up at your right ear, with nothing between. (The HeadRoom headphone amp fills in some of this void, but the sound is still inside your head.) The fact is that 200 million people listening via stereo headphones are nearly all listening to material that was never intended for headphone listening! Binaural recordings are specifically intended for headphone listening for the full effect, yet not only sound great via speakers but provide excellent surround sound capabilities (see above FAQ). Prof. Stanley Lipschitz of the University of Waterloo Audio Research Group observed, "Stereo recordings should carry a warning sticker stating NOT CORRECT FOR PLAYBACK VIA HEADPHONES."

 

[darkswordsman17]

Really, you're never going to be getting the "best mix" unless you're in the mixing room. People listen to music on a variety of setups, headphones, speakers, car, surround, etc, and 99% of people do not have an acoustically calibrated room or even have their speakers place properly so most people are basically never hearing it as its intended.

You also need to realize, plenty of mixing is done with headphones in mind, saying its never intended for headphones is just wrong.

A bigger problem is that there's way too much mixing where fidelity/quality is not the aim at all, and that is far more significant than it being mixed specifically for a certain audio setup. I can still enjoy a 7.1 surround encoded mix on headphones and if it was done well, it will still sound exceptional even on headphones. Just like how a low-fi distorted mess will still sound like garbage on bad speakers or good ones, a good mix, will sound good regardless (now it sounding its best or as its intended is a different subject).

Ideally, audio wouldn't have "channels" it should just be represented spatially and then your equipment will handle placement based on your setup.

I don't think you're missing out much by using headphones, and considering they help eliminate other problems, as well as have some strengths of their own, its hardly a reason to make a fuss over someone "not listening as it was intended".

Lastly, there are tools out there that help with this specific issue as well.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Well, give an explanation or wiki article or something.
It is possible you are correct, but I have not heard the psycho-acoustic explanation nor anyone from the industry or recording industry say anything contrary to what I have said, so I think bare the burden of explanation.
Currently, the theoretical and experiential evidence is against you. Not to be hostel, 🙂.
I think maybe, unless you are the industry's next Stanley Lipshitz, in other words you are the next greatest living audio engineer in the entire world, you are simple wrong.

There's this new thing on the internet called "the Google". Try it.

I'll see your Stanley Lipshitz and raise you a Bob Carver...


edit: FWIW, I never disputed the superiority of binaural recording to standard stereo for headphone listening; I just thought your explanation of why the right ear must hear the left channel and vice-versa was rather misguided.

 

[Plugers]

Search "CMoy crossfeed" you may have $30 into it. The crossfeed option allows you to mix the channels for the stereo effect.

 

[glen]

... I just thought your explanation of why the right ear must hear the left channel and vice-versa was rather misguided.

because...?
But now you know better because you read up on it and have listened to some binaural samples, right? 🙂

In short, you actually do need "crosstalk," as you have used the word, to hear the stereo effect on head phones.
To post what you posted "...so much fail..." Is really foolish when you obviously don't know much about stereo, binaural, or Psychoacoustics.

 

[CallMeJoe]

because...?
But now you know better because you read up on it and have listened to some binaural samples, right? 🙂

I first read of binaural recordings and listened to some through my Koss Pro4AAs back in the mid '70s. I believe I may understand the principles as well as you do.

In short, you actually do need "crosstalk," as you have used the word, to hear the stereo effect on head phones.

In re the "crosstalk" issue, I was referring specifically to your comment on the benefit of crosstalk during speaker use, not to spatial perception issues in headphone listening. In open-air speaker listening, crosstalk actually degrades the stereo image because of unrealistic phasing between the channel signals arriving at the opposite ears.

To post what you posted "...so much fail..." Is really foolish when you obviously don't know much about stereo, binaural, or Psychoacoustics.

I do have some limited knowledge of the subjects, though I obviously do not pretend to the detailed understanding that you do.
Perhaps if you did some reading on Sonic Holography you might understand the issues I raise concerning speaker soundfields.

 

[Muse]

Really, you're never going to be getting the "best mix" unless you're in the mixing room. People listen to music on a variety of setups, headphones, speakers, car, surround, etc, and 99% of people do not have an acoustically calibrated room or even have their speakers place properly so most people are basically never hearing it as its intended.

You also need to realize, plenty of mixing is done with headphones in mind, saying its never intended for headphones is just wrong.

A bigger problem is that there's way too much mixing where fidelity/quality is not the aim at all, and that is far more significant than it being mixed specifically for a certain audio setup. I can still enjoy a 7.1 surround encoded mix on headphones and if it was done well, it will still sound exceptional even on headphones. Just like how a low-fi distorted mess will still sound like garbage on bad speakers or good ones, a good mix, will sound good regardless (now it sounding its best or as its intended is a different subject).

Ideally, audio wouldn't have "channels" it should just be represented spatially and then your equipment will handle placement based on your setup.

I don't think you're missing out much by using headphones, and considering they help eliminate other problems, as well as have some strengths of their own, its hardly a reason to make a fuss over someone "not listening as it was intended".

Lastly, there are tools out there that help with this specific issue as well.

Very good post. In fact I believe that most of your mixes are done by someone wearing headphones, so IMO you are getting the "intended" experience by listening with headphones. Your chances of having a better experience in a room with a speaker system are slim given the difficulties of creating anything close to an optimal (or even OK) room/speaker system. I've always thought that listening to music with headphones provides the exceptional experience, and personally I prefer earbuds (i.e. my Etymotics) due to the fact that I haven't yet found over-the-ear headphones that are comfortable for extended periods. Aside from these considerations, at least where I live there is the advantage that I can turn up my headphones to any level I'm comfortable with (yes, I protect my hearing) and don't have to concern myself with disturbing my neighbors. My brain may not interpret the headphone experience spatially entirely correctly, at least at the get-go, but I think it's capable of getting what matters most anyway.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...In fact I believe that most of your mixes are done by someone wearing headphones, so IMO you are getting the "intended" experience by listening with headphones...

In my (admittedly dated) experience, recording engineers worked with monitor speakers, usually arranged near-field.

 

[glen]

In re the "crosstalk" issue, I was referring specifically to your comment on the benefit of crosstalk during speaker use, not to spatial perception issues in headphone listening. In open-air speaker listening, crosstalk actually degrades the stereo image because of unrealistic phasing between the channel signals arriving at the opposite ears.

No.
Stereo work with speakers because of the "crosstalk."
Stereo doesn't work with headphone becasue you don't have "crosstalk."

 

[glen]

Very good post. In fact I believe that most of your mixes are done by someone wearing headphones, so IMO you are getting the "intended" experience by listening with headphones.

There might be a set or two of headphones in the studio.
Headphones can be used to get the tonal balance, but, again, they do not recreate the stero effect. The standard in recording studios since the early 80's has been Genelec active speakers.

 

[glen]

In my (admittedly dated) experience, recording engineers worked with monitor speakers, usually arranged near-field.

yes!

 

[glen]

Prof. Stanley Lipschitz of the University of Waterloo Audio Research Group observed, "Stereo recordings should carry a warning sticker stating NOT CORRECT FOR PLAYBACK VIA HEADPHONES."

 

[CallMeJoe]

No.
Stereo work with speakers because of the "crosstalk."
Stereo doesn't work with headphone becasue you don't have "crosstalk."

Since you can't be bothered to do ant research yourself:

"Sonic Holography" is a method of processing stereo signals so as to correct a basic imaging flaw which is inherent in two-channel stereophonic recording and reproduction via loudspeakers. What that flaw is and why it can't be corrected by any conventional recording technique are discussed later in "Stereo Recording and Playback".
Briefly, the problem is that in stereo listening, both ears hear the outputs of both loudspeakers. When a sonic event such as a musical transient is reproduced by the Left-channel loudspeaker, the sound travels in a straight line from the speaker to your left ear. A tiny fraction of a second later the same Left-loudspeaker sound arrives at your right ear, somewhat filtered by the obstruction of your head. If the same sonic event was recorded in both stereo channels, as normally is the case, then some version of it will be reproduced in the Right-channel speaker, whose sound will arrive at your right ear and then, a tiny fraction of a second later, at your left ear. Thus the single original sonic event is represented by a total of four sound arrivals at your two ears.
In real life a single sonic event can never cause more than two sonic arrivals: one at your left ear and one at your right ear. (Which ear gets the sound first depends on which direction you are facing, relative to where the sound is coming from. If you are facing the sound, it will arrive at both ears simultaneously.)
The goal of the Carver Sonic Hologram Generator is to eliminate the "extra" two sonic arrivals that occur in stereophonic playback but do not occur in real life. With these eliminated, the ear/brain system of the listener will receive unambiguous timing and phase information about the original sounds as they struck the recording microphones. Without extra sonic arrivals to confuse it, the ear/brain system will be able to perceive the true location of each sound source in the stereo recording — not only from left to right but also from near to far.
This is accomplished by canceling the unwanted second arrival of the sound from each speaker to the opposite side ear, so that each ear is free to concentrate its attention on the signal from the speaker on the same side; i.e., the left ear will hear mainly the Left speaker, and the right ear will hear mainly the Right speaker, without the confusing acoustic crosstalk which normally occurs in stereo playback.

 

[glen]

Since you can't be bothered to do ant research yourself:

"Sonic Holography" is a method of processing stereo signals so as to correct a basic imaging flaw which is inherent in two-channel stereophonic recording and reproduction via loudspeakers. What that flaw is and why it can't be corrected by any conventional recording technique are discussed later in "Stereo Recording and Playback".
Briefly, the problem is that in stereo listening, both ears hear the outputs of both loudspeakers. When a sonic event such as a musical transient is reproduced by the Left-channel loudspeaker, the sound travels in a straight line from the speaker to your left ear. A tiny fraction of a second later the same Left-loudspeaker sound arrives at your right ear, somewhat filtered by the obstruction of your head. If the same sonic event was recorded in both stereo channels, as normally is the case, then some version of it will be reproduced in the Right-channel speaker, whose sound will arrive at your right ear and then, a tiny fraction of a second later, at your left ear. Thus the single original sonic event is represented by a total of four sound arrivals at your two ears.
In real life a single sonic event can never cause more than two sonic arrivals: one at your left ear and one at your right ear. (Which ear gets the sound first depends on which direction you are facing, relative to where the sound is coming from. If you are facing the sound, it will arrive at both ears simultaneously.)
The goal of the Carver Sonic Hologram Generator is to eliminate the "extra" two sonic arrivals that occur in stereophonic playback but do not occur in real life. With these eliminated, the ear/brain system of the listener will receive unambiguous timing and phase information about the original sounds as they struck the recording microphones. Without extra sonic arrivals to confuse it, the ear/brain system will be able to perceive the true location of each sound source in the stereo recording — not only from left to right but also from near to far.
This is accomplished by canceling the unwanted second arrival of the sound from each speaker to the opposite side ear, so that each ear is free to concentrate its attention on the signal from the speaker on the same side; i.e., the left ear will hear mainly the Left speaker, and the right ear will hear mainly the Right speaker, without the confusing acoustic crosstalk which normally occurs in stereo playback.

My point is that the stereo effect is not heard on headphones.
This article does not refute that point.

It does slighlty address "crosstalk."

However, crosstalk is a vague term and is pegorative.
vague - It can refer to things happening in the electric pathway and in the sound waves.
pergorative -It means soemthign undesired.

To be more specific we could use a term like head shadow effect.
If you don't hear the anything from the left speaker in the right ear, you don't "hear" the head shadow effect which is an essential part of sound localization.
So, hearing some of both speakers in both ears is essential for the stereo effect.

However, to the point of the article, we can also say that some of the information coming from the opposite speakers is undesired and smears the image. But, keep in mind, with out it, there is not even an image to smear! Sonic Holography is an attempt to minimize the negative aspect while not eleminating the essential part for stero localization.

So, the article is tangential and does not refute what I said about stereo and headphones.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Prof. Stanley Lipschitz of the University of Waterloo Audio Research Group observed, "Stereo recordings should carry a warning sticker stating NOT CORRECT FOR PLAYBACK VIA HEADPHONES."

People are not listening "correct" on regular speakers either. Your point about mixing actually highlights this. The average person does not have anything close to reference studio monitors for speakers or acoustically controlled listening rooms. There's also the fact that they should (and many do) test it out on other systems because they understand people have different setups.

And again, that's all moot when they ignore fidelity and quality, which will ruin the stereo effect just as well.

 

[kornphlake]

It's a pretty silly argument since most popular music is recorded and mixed so poorly that the stereo imaging is nearly non-existant by the time the album is produced. Most rock albums are recorded with instruments close mic'ed, any apparent stereo effects are un-natural effects created by the recording engineer. After compression, the resulting track sounds like anything but a live performance regardless of the speakers or headphones. I haven't written a white paper on the subject and I'm certainly not an expert, but my opinion (as any audiophile's claims are nothing more than an opinion) is that headphones are not significantly worse than loudspeakers in reproducing the majority of stereo recordings.

 

[momeNt]

I just got my first pair, and I am hearing things in my music that were just to subtle to hear before. I am really very impressed.

What pair did you get?