Wow. Bitcoin is almost $1,500

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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,902
12,970
136
It suddenly hit me, IF, according to that article I linked from Forbes or Fool, that the IRS considers mining to be "Capital Gains", then that means, that it's NOT "Income", right?

According to the IRS guidance from 2014:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

they define "virtual currency" and then go on to treat it, for tax purposes, as property. So you pay income tax on its value after receiving it, and if the value appreciates after it comes into your possession, you follow cap gains on the increase in value after you sell it. Hold it for one year or longer, and you pay the long term rate.

You can try to parse their definition of "virtual currency" to cover or not cover a particular crypto (it is arguable that "utility" tokens may not qualify as "virtual currency" at all), but be careful with that. You would need a bomb-ass attorney to go to court against the IRS and win on that strategy.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
I've been through two pops already. I made out quite well buying during the last recession since unlike with Bitcoin I expected Apple, Microsoft, and the rest of the S&P 500 to recover over time.

As you get older and actually start withdrawing from your accounts, you are exposed to sequence of returns risk, look it up from Wade Pfau.

https://retirementresearcher.com/yo...ure-born-revisiting-sequence-of-returns-risk/

Wealth-300x1711.jpg
Let’s illustrate this in a simplified world to make this vulnerability very clear and prominent. Americans are a very self-reliant people who believe if you work hard and do what you are supposed to be doing, then things are going to work out. So let’s consider some hypothetical individuals who are doing everything absolutely right (based on our state of knowledge) with regard to their retirement planning. When retirement is still 30 years off in the horizon, they begin saving 15% of their salary at the end of each year.

In our simplified world, these folks don’t have to worry about health risks, disability, or economic shocks to Main Street which might cause them to lose their jobs. They are able to continue work over the subsequent 30 years earning a constant Inflation risk
Inflation risk is the risk that inflation will reduce your purchasing power in the future, either because inflation was higher than expected, or inflation outpaced your investments.
" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(67, 72, 77); text-decoration-line: underline; border-bottom: 1px dotted; font-size: inherit !important;">inflation
-adjusted salary.

As well, unlike in real life, there is no uncertainty with regard to investing. There is risk, but this risk is understood. Each year the market provides a 7% real return on average, but the actual return is going to fluctuate around this real return with a standard deviation of 20%. So while one does not know what the year-by-year returns will be, they do know that returns will fluctuate around 7%, and with 30 years of returns the average (arithmetic) return each investor earned over their career will be somewhere close to 7%. Their wealth will not compound at this rate, as with volatility a given percentage drop in the portfolio requires a larger percentage gain to get back to where they started, and the math shows that the compounded growth they can expect for their portfolio is 5% (7% – 0.5 * (20%)^2).

So these folks play by the rules, do everything right, don’t experience any health or unemployment issues, and understand the underlying return process that affect their portfolios. Saving 15% at the end of each year and with wealth compounding at 5%, they fully expect to reach retirement with a portfolio equal to 10 times their salary.

Where do they actually end up?

The following figure shows a Monte Carlo simulation of a time series chart for 151 hypothetical investors who work and save for 30 years and get 30 years of market returns, but who differ only in which 30 year period they worked and saved in this 180 year simulated historical time frame.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
VET has taken quite a big jump in its pairing against ETH. I'll be curious to see if VET will hold up to a stronger ETH recovery or if it will slip against it.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,774
33,746
136
I think the Franklin Mint needs to jump on board with commemorative coins, each with unique serial number and a QR code to confirm the serial number as authentic for only eight low payments of $39.99.
 
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momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
I think the Franklin Mint needs to jump on board with commemorative coins, each with unique serial number and a QR code to confirm the serial number as authentic.

They would sell like crazy. Own your very own piece of the blockchain. The uninformed would pounce all over it, you can do exactly the same by just getting a wallet >.<
 

Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
1,574
275
81
I am curious to see how decentralized blockchain (VET, WTC, etc), backed by a coin and its value, compete with centralized blockchain, backed by a brand, and a sales team.

Yeah I've been asking myself that also...

Bitcoin was able to go under-the-radar, so to speak, and become the behemoth it is precisely because no private company is involved in a completely decentralized blockchain which belongs to nobody. Most of the other blockchains (altcoins) have centralized development which puts them on equal footing with any company which wants to do the same thing and compete.

Looking like there's going to be quite a business model battle shaping up in the altcoin arena.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
As you get older and actually start withdrawing from your accounts, you are exposed to sequence of returns risk, look it up from Wade Pfau.

https://retirementresearcher.com/yo...ure-born-revisiting-sequence-of-returns-risk/

Interesting stuff, but stock index funds have a very high chance of beating bitcoin/altcoins over 30 years for anyone investing in them starting now. Low-ish risk with a range of (+2.9x to +27x) in that simulation vs. insanely risk with a range of (-100% to +eleventybillion%) just like buying Powerball tickets.
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
81
Money alert. Anybody who bought the dip for almost every type of crypto has now made giant profits!
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,395
1,189
126
VET has taken quite a big jump in its pairing against ETH. I'll be curious to see if VET will hold up to a stronger ETH recovery or if it will slip against it.
I hope ETH stops slackin' and pick it up... I'm losing money due to ETH/VEN ratio (my funding becomes available tomorrow).
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Money alert. Anybody who bought the dip for almost every type of crypto has now made giant profits!

How do you make profits from cryptos? Not like you can sell your shares and cash out like regular stocks, right?
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
How do you make profits from cryptos? Not like you can sell your shares and cash out like regular stocks, right?

Of course you can.

The easiest way for somebody to quickly dabble in altcoins was posted for me a few days back.

1. Create coinbase account.
2. Create binance account
3. fund coinbase account
4. transfer funds to binance
5. use your funds (ETH usually) and purchase alt coins on binance.
6. HODL
7. Pick what color Lambo you want and practice your moonwalk.
8. Sell alt coin for ETH
9. transfer back to coinbase
10. deposit USD - pay taxes, enjoy your riches, and don't forget about us when we come asking for money.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,840
31,329
146
Yes. You do just that- just like stocks.

...but it takes several accounts and currency purchases and days for transactions to be approved, right? You miss out on the insane hourly volatility of this stuff, which can't really be compared to stocks in terms of actual trading.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,395
1,189
126
Of course you can.

The easiest way for somebody to quickly dabble in altcoins was posted for me a few days back.

1. Create coinbase account.
2. Create binance account
3. fund coinbase account
4. transfer funds to binance
5. use your funds (ETH usually) and purchase alt coins on binance.
6. HODL
7. Pick what color Lambo you want and practice your moonwalk.
8. Sell alt coin for ETH
9. transfer back to coinbase
10. deposit USD - pay taxes, enjoy your riches, and don't forget about us when we come asking for money.

Or the easiest for him is.

1. Create coinbase account
2. Purchase BTC/ETH/LTC
3. HOLD (or HODL)
4. Sell in the same Coinbase to your checking account (literally 2 clicks).
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,395
1,189
126
...but it takes several accounts and currency purchases and days for transactions to be approved, right? You miss out on the insane hourly volatility of this stuff, which can't really be compared to stocks in terms of actual trading.
No. If you just want to buy BTC/ETH/LTC. You buy in Coinbase and sell it in Coinbase directly to your checking account. You don't miss out on anything because the moment you click buy or sell, it locks your rate. It'd be crazy if you couldn't lock it down.

You may be waiting for the fund to arrive, but it's locked down. Again, if you couldn't lock it in, that'd be crazy and insane for corruption (by Coinbase).
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I am curious to see how decentralized blockchain (VET, WTC, etc), backed by a coin and its value, compete with centralized blockchain, backed by a brand, and a sales team.

That's why I am very excited about NEM in the long-term. The NEM blockchain is developed by a nonprofit, the NEM Foundation, but they work with a for-profit entity (Tech Bureau, and their Mijin company/product) who develops a private implementation of the NEM blockchain. They've worked with the NEM developers though to help improve NEM and make it even more adaptable - the big news coming soon™ is the hard fork that will change NEM from a Java base to a C++ code base.

Mijin offers mini private custom NEM-based chains for various entities, largely in the same way Ethereum is helping develop private Ethereum-based chains for various entities. The success of a for-profit organization rides on the NEM base being a profitable solution, and they are helping develop NEM to help achieve that for themselves and for the project it uses. The success of both are quite entwined in some regards, but NEM actually has a great story and I think would survive the failure of Mijin, though the value of XEM would likely plummet for awhile. Due to the speculative nature and hopefully some great projects that ride directly on the NEM blockchain -- as opposed to Mijin which just uses the code but has their own discrete blockchain -- I think XEM's value will soar if Mijin becomes a highly successful enterprise (and it looks like they will be), even though it isn't a direct relationship between the two. But if the NEM blockchain grows to become similar to Ethereum in widespread use, it has the tech to back that growth and scale and keep fees low and transactions fast. And it was developed from the ground up as a resource-friendly tech with a unique take on Proof of Stake, called Proof of Importance. It rewards both vesting large sums as a node and legitimate high use (can't game transferring between a small group of wallets, the algo requires diversity), and actually just holding and not using will result in a slide down in the harvesting rate.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
...but it takes several accounts and currency purchases and days for transactions to be approved, right? You miss out on the insane hourly volatility of this stuff, which can't really be compared to stocks in terms of actual trading.
*

No. If you just want to buy BTC/ETH/LTC. You buy in Coinbase and sell it in Coinbase directly to your checking account. You don't miss out on anything because the moment you click buy or sell, it locks your rate. It'd be crazy if you couldn't lock it down.

You may be waiting for the fund to arrive, but it's locked down. Again, if you couldn't lock it in, that'd be crazy and insane for corruption (by Coinbase).

Really doesn't even matter where you buy - you can create a single account at any Exchange, get verified, and then deposit and withdrawal to checking account. Deposits and withdrawals take days, but they do for every bank. You experience the same thing trading stocks. Funding and withdrawal take time to approve (part of the reason blockchain as a tech is going to be our savior even if any particular coin/token has low/no investment value).

When it comes to the actual trading it's not that significantly delayed, and it depends on which coins/tokens you are trading, as some networks are slower than others, or more costly.

Most exchanges make asset sales fast, you put in your order and when it is filled, the exchange often processes that immediately. It locks the sale and rates, they all do that, and I suspect they all also utilize escrows to hold onto assets until those sales are confirmed, and then you get the other asset, which you can often than go on to trade again. Most exchanges also utilize Tether (USDT) for most USD trading pairs, which is a crypto token pegged to the USD. That keeps funds entirely within the crypto ecosystem which keeps it smooth and faster.

Where you get slowdowns, like you would in the banking world, is when you want to transfer crypto assets between exchanges/funding sources. Those slowdowns are still *usually* at worst an hour.

Keep in mind that stock sales aren't instantaneous either, they usually take 3 days to fully clear before you can transfer that money. Some banks let you perceive it as instantaneous so long as you remain in good standing because they officially escrow the asset balances in question until they clear. If you break certain trading rules that allow them to offer that service, you go back to slow funding/withdrawals. It sucks, I've been there.


note: crypto exchanges may not do the escrow thing for instantaneous trading, I rarely pay that close of attention because I rarely trade directly for BTC or ETH (which are often the slowest in cryptoland), and I don't try to chase swings from one minute to the next so I don't know if those funds were truly available for trade so soon. But I usually see trades reflect in my balance pretty much immediately in my Coinigy account unless I'm transferring between the multiple exchanges I use, then I get hit with the full "n confirmations" requirement, so for BTC that's usually 30-60 minutes.


*edit
inserted a quote that I meant to include before, forgot to insert the multi-quote
 
Last edited:

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,615
6,003
136
i guess bitconnect (BCC) isnt doing so good right now? saw some people on reddit complaining because it looked like it was shutting down.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,585
81
91
www.bing.com
...but it takes several accounts and currency purchases and days for transactions to be approved, right? You miss out on the insane hourly volatility of this stuff, which can't really be compared to stocks in terms of actual trading.
Last time I withdrew my dividends from TD Ameritrade, it took 3 days to show up in my checking account. The last time I withdrew my BTC from coinbase, they were instantly converted to USD (price locked in when I clicked), then showed up in my checking account in 2 days.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Last time I withdrew my dividends from TD Ameritrade, it took 3 days to show up in my checking account. The last time I withdrew my BTC from coinbase, they were instantly converted to USD (price locked in when I clicked), then showed up in my checking account in 2 days.

Yes, but those dividends were already in US dollars (probably a money market fund) and insured by the SIPC.

It sounds like Coinbase is a decent site for trading coins, at least until they're "hacked" and all the money vanishes :)