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Wow. Bitcoin is almost $1,500

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Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
1,574
272
81
Bitcoin really needs to get their transactions performance figured out and stop the internal bickering. It's slowing down the value increase at this point.

Etherium is doing very, very well and outpacing bitcoin in value gain.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,094
151
106
But even with the recent climb, no is talking about Bitcoin. How much higher must Bitcoin climb before it gets some respect? $2,000? $3,000? $10,000?
Thats why it gets no respect other than speculators: too much volatility in price movement. Well that plus 7 transaction/sec speed, 10 minute transaction confirmation times and anonymous wallets.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
17,959
1,628
126
Thats why it gets no respect other than speculators: too much volatility in price movement. Well that plus 7 transaction/sec speed, 10 minute transaction confirmation times and anonymous wallets.
I remember when internet stocks got no respect. Prices will settle once it gets respect. I don't look at bitcoin as currency. More like commodity. What's the difference between the price of Bitcoin vs price of Amazon or Tesla stock? Imagination.
 

madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
706
121
$22 million for two Papa John's Pizzas! :eek:

Monday marks the seven-year anniversary of Bitcoin Pizza Day – the moment a programmer named Laszlo Hanyecz spent 10,000 bitcoin on two Papa John's pizzas. . .

On May 22, 2010, Hanyecz asked a fellow enthusiast on a bitcoin forum to accept 10,000 bitcoin for two Papa John's Pizzas. At the time, Hanyecz believed that the coins he had "mined" on his computer were worth around 0.003 cents each.

Bitcoin mining involves solving a complex mathematical solution with the miner being rewarded in bitcoin. This is how Hanyecz got his initial coins.

The cryptocurrency has many doubters as it continues to be associated with criminal activity, but it has still seen a stunning rally. Here are two facts, on Bitcoin Pizza Day, however, that highlight this:

  • While being worth $30 at the time, Hanyecz pizzas would now cost $21.8 million at current bitcoin prices
  • If you bought $100 of bitcoin at the 0.003 cent price on May 22, 2010, you'd now be sitting on around $72.9 million
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
5,922
473
126
I remember when internet stocks got no respect. Prices will settle once it gets respect. I don't look at bitcoin as currency. More like commodity. What's the difference between the price of Bitcoin vs price of Amazon or Tesla stock? Imagination.
The problem with all cryptos is there is no viable use case for them. The only possible exception is for cross border transfers but the private sector will produce a compelling solution to that problem before bitcoin or any of the other cryptos have a chance to dominate that market.

As of right now, cryptos are useless for any purpose other than illegal transactions and that is a pretty small and limited market. And that's aside from the fact that most legit criminals prefer cash anyway.

Fiat currencies are worth something because of the govt monopoly on their creation and distribution. That and the fact that as a result you have entire economies were there is demand for the currency for transactions. You don't have that with cryptos and never will since the moment they pose a threat to the established currency, they will be forced underground.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
22,875
1,114
126
Bitcoin still seems need more legitimate marketplaces to spend their currency. Sure, the drug dealers and cryptolocker scammers love it, but that's not enough to get real mainstream acceptance.

And yeah... I know that you can buy all kinds of different gift cards with it. That's not the point.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
17,959
1,628
126
The problem with all cryptos is there is no viable use case for them. The only possible exception is for cross border transfers but the private sector will produce a compelling solution to that problem before bitcoin or any of the other cryptos have a chance to dominate that market.

As of right now, cryptos are useless for any purpose other than illegal transactions and that is a pretty small and limited market. And that's aside from the fact that most legit criminals prefer cash anyway.

Fiat currencies are worth something because of the govt monopoly on their creation and distribution. That and the fact that as a result you have entire economies were there is demand for the currency for transactions. You don't have that with cryptos and never will since the moment they pose a threat to the established currency, they will be forced underground.
The line between criminal/legal is sometimes gray. Bitcoin seems to have taken off when Japan acknowledged and recognized Bitcoin as legal method of payment. And South Korea will probably join Japan soon recognizing Bitcoin as legal method of payment.
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
17,959
1,628
126
Bitcoin still seems need more legitimate marketplaces to spend their currency. Sure, the drug dealers and cryptolocker scammers love it, but that's not enough to get real mainstream acceptance.

And yeah... I know that you can buy all kinds of different gift cards with it. That's not the point.
Gift cards? You can buy all the silver, gold, and platinum you want with Bitcoin. That's good enough for me.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,003
3,822
146
Gift cards? You can buy all the silver, gold, and platinum you want with Bitcoin. That's good enough for me.
Not to mention, as I've stated in the past, you can convert it to $$. That makes it real enough. Currency? Fiat? Commodity? I don't care, it's paid for my 1080GTX and is making me money.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,727
1,495
136
Between BitPay and Shift, I can pretty much use Bitcoin and Ether anywhere.

The currency part of cryptocurrencies is just one aspect of what they can and are being used for, though.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
5,922
473
126
The line between criminal/legal is sometimes gray. Bitcoin seems to have taken off when Japan acknowledged and recognized Bitcoin as legal method of payment. And South Korea will probably join Japan soon recognizing Bitcoin as legal method of payment.
Bitcoin is "legal" in most places. It's always been legal in the US. That's not the issue. The issue is what existing problem does it solve? And the answer is, aside from remittances, none. And even the remittance advantage is stifled due to the difficulty of translating bitcoin to local currency.

That's why everyone uses Western Union even though it's a horrendous rip off. Sure, you taking it up the ass with WU but they have thousands of offices around the world where you can get cash.

I think you have to try to anticipate what would happen if cryptos did indeed start to become an alternate currency. Assume that you could use bitcoin for everything you currently use cash for. What would happen to cash, both physical and electronic? You would essentially have an economy with competing methods of payment.

If cryptos were ever to reach that level of penetration, they would undermine the value of the existing fiat currencies. Do you really see any govt tolerating that? Cryptos are tolerated now because they are not a threat . . . yet. But as soon as they become one, they'll be driven underground. And that's of necessity. You can't regulate an economy that has a competing currency. The Federal Reserve would be powerless ameliorate swings in the business cycle or to help the economy recover after a financial crisis.

The people in govt who are tolerating the use of cryptos aren't looking that far down the road. But when they do, and they will eventually have to, it's not going to be a good day for cryptos.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,727
1,495
136
Bitcoin is "legal" in most places. It's always been legal in the US. That's not the issue. The issue is what existing problem does it solve? And the answer is, aside from remittances, none. And even the remittance advantage is stifled due to the difficulty of translating bitcoin to local currency.
Tell that to all the major banks and enterprises starting to use Ethereum and other cryptocurrencies for clearing and settlement and blockchain purposes. Anyone who has used ACH can tell you it sucks. It's an old, inefficient system.

Also, the Fed doesn't give a crap what anyone uses if it's not trying to establish itself as a fiat currency, which Bitcoin and Ethereum aren't. The government may end up having to regulate some cryptocurrencies that are used as investment vehicles/financial instruments within the United States, but it's not like everyone is excited about cryptocurrencies because they are attempting to supplant the dollar.

Some people get hung up on the "currency" part of "cryptocurrency", but what makes up a cryptocurrency is a decentralized, cryptographic ledger. If anything, governments and central banks are going to implement the technology themselves in due time, not start picking up pitchforks to drive the tech underground. Financial technology (FinTech) is a thing, and it's likely here to stay.

If you are just trying to say not everyone will directly use Bitcoin to send money to one another or to pay their bills or whatever, I agree. That's not the issue at hand, though; it's something people might have entertained as a possibility a few years ago, but it doesn't matter at this point whether that happens, and it was never really the most interesting use case for cryptocurrencies.
 
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Mandres

Senior member
Jun 8, 2011
944
58
91
Every time it rallies, I picture a bunch of ransomware victims.
Interesting, I never thought about that angle before. I wonder just how much the recent ransomware fiasco drove up aggregate demand for BTC? I'm going to have to go look for articles/stats. It would be interesting if WannaCry was really just a sophisticated scheme to drive up the BTC price.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
5,922
473
126
Some people get hung up on the "currency" part of "cryptocurrency", but what makes up a cryptocurrency is a decentralized, cryptographic ledger. If anything, governments and central banks are going to implement the technology themselves in due time, not start picking up pitchforks to drive the tech underground. Financial technology (FinTech) is a thing, and it's likely here to stay.
That's exactly right. But do you see the problem with that from a speculator's point of view?

What banks and govts will do is co-opt block chain technology for their own purposes leaving cryptos with, again, no useful function.

It's a trivial matter to fork any crypto system and make it your own. That's how the block chain will be used in the future, not via the intermediaries of crypto currencies.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,727
1,495
136
That's exactly right. But do you see the problem with that from a speculator's point of view?

What banks and govts will do is co-opt block chain technology for their own purposes leaving cryptos with, again, no useful function.

It's a trivial matter to fork any crypto system and make it your own. That's how the block chain will be used in the future, not via the intermediaries of crypto currencies.
Any speculator should know nothing lasts forever. If your point is to temper speculation, your point is well made, but it's not one that isn't already taken into account by most speculators. Yes, it's a risk, but you can't say with certainty when that will happen.

Speculation is risky, that's a given.
What I've responded to is your statement that there are no legitimate or useful reasons for cryptocurrencies to exist. If you are agreeing that cryptocurrencies may transform the existing financial system, you are conceding your argument.

All technology gets transformed, it's not a static thing you can preserve or limit. This is already evident in Bitcoin being improved upon by Ethereum. Something else will supplant Ethereum or render it worthless, but that's not a hard prediction to make. It's the what and when that matters.
 
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MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
8,758
43
91
My thoughts on this:
- Bitcoin and all the other coin will lose all their value once all the security and cryptographic transfer issues are ironed out. It will be because all the big hitters in backing and computational technology will move the financial market to the distributed ledger model. (ie hyperledger / blockchain)

Because right now, it is only the belief that you "have something no one else has" keeps bitcoin alive. So I'd say go for it while you can until they shut off the pumps.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
5,922
473
126
Any speculator should know nothing lasts forever. If your point is to temper speculation, your point is well made, but it's not one that isn't already taken into account by most speculators. Yes, it's a risk, but you can't say with certainty when that will happen.

Speculation is risky, that's a given.
What I've responded to is your statement that there are no legitimate or useful reasons for cryptocurrencies to exist. If you are agreeing that cryptocurrencies may transform the existing financial system, you are conceding your argument.

All technology gets transformed, it's not a static thing you can preserve or limit. This is already evident in Bitcoin being improved upon by Ethereum. Something else will supplant Ethereum or render it worthless, but that's not a hard prediction to make. It's the what and when that matters.
I shouldn't have used the term 'speculators' since that's not really what I had in mind. But I couldn't think of another term. I guess 'investor' is closer to what I meant.

There are a lot of buy and hold folks out there. They won't sell regardless of where the price goes because from their point of view, The price can only go up long term. Those are the people I think will get screwed in the long run. True speculators can make money in any kind of market.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
57,539
7,873
126
www.uovalor.com
I really need to get on Etherium while I still can. I told myself that about Bitcoin and now it's too late. At least as far as mining goes. You pretty much need to be a semiconductor manufacturer or have close ties with one to mine Bitcoin now. The Asics you buy online are outdated by the time they ship to you. You need to be able to make them yourself and put them in service right away.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,727
1,495
136
I really need to get on Etherium while I still can. I told myself that about Bitcoin and now it's too late. At least as far as mining goes. You pretty much need to be a semiconductor manufacturer or have close ties with one to mine Bitcoin now. The Asics you buy online are outdated by the time they ship to you. You need to be able to make them yourself and put them in service right away.
Not hard to start mining, if you already have some AMD cards (RX 470/480/570/580 are prime given hash rate, power usage, and price... note that there is a shortage of those cards now, though, but older cards or Fiji-based cards would mine just fine) or GTX 1070 if you are mining pure Ethereum (zcash and other cryptocurrencies do okay with higher, but memory type for 1070 gives it hash rate about the same as a RX 480 or R9 390).

Takes an hour or two to set up a wallet - make sure you backup your wallet and test import before mining to it! - download and configure mining software (mining pools will have instructions and links), and start mining.

You'll want to use Afterburner (AMD) or Precision XOC (Nvidia) to tweak core clock and memory clock, and undervolt for optimal power usage and hashrate while keeping temps manageable. You can get a rough idea of what settings to try to optimize hashrate from the mining hardware comparison wiki (Google it) or from posts here, on the Ethereum forums, or from Reddit threads. There's a lot of trial and error, though.

Very familiar process for anyone who's mined Bitcoin or Litecoin with a GPU before, otherwise you can always ask for help in the VC&G thread if you run into issues.

You can also mine on Linux, but it's a little trickier to optimize and monitor temps, and AMD driver support for latest Ubuntu versions isn't there. There's a custom distro or two out there specifically made for Ethereum mining, though, ethOS being one. Haven't used it myself.
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
57,539
7,873
126
www.uovalor.com
Yeah I'd have to read up more on the specifics, but I'd probably setup a dedicated rig and put it in my rack and go at it. Though might be best to start small just to see how much I make then grow from there. From what I gather you don't need the full bandwidth of PCI-e 16x that you'd normally use for a VGA, so you can use all the slots even the 1X, just need a special cable. So like you can have like 6+ cards on one system. Need a huge PSU for that mind you but think it's just the 12v rail you need for VGAs so it makes it a bit easier.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,727
1,495
136
Yeah I'd have to read up more on the specifics, but I'd probably setup a dedicated rig and put it in my rack and go at it. Though might be best to start small just to see how much I make then grow from there. From what I gather you don't need the full bandwidth of PCI-e 16x that you'd normally use for a VGA, so you can use all the slots even the 1X, just need a special cable. So like you can have like 6+ cards on one system. Need a huge PSU for that mind you but think it's just the 12v rail you need for VGAs so it makes it a bit easier.
Yup, that's correct. PCI-e x1 is enough, doesn't make a difference for mining. You can use x1 risers (Mintcell sells them on Amazon, Newegg, and ebay) and you can run multiple power supplies if needed to power the cards, you just have to use the paperclip method (or use a splitter) to turn on the ones that aren't powering the motherboard with the 20+4, since most power supplies need the signal to turn on.
 

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