WoW 1.10 patch notes

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: Anubis
whils i do agree that us rogues have been nerfed over and over wo do have a lot of ability to absoutly destroy all classes, even before we have epics, the issue is that we either win or loose in the first 2 seconds of a battle, if someone resists a stun or a BS misses we are pretty fvcked, but when we get it off almost no one can survive after a CS-BS-KS-BS-Gouge combo that does over 3000 damage in 5 seconds, toss in a Tea and a evis and you are fed,

I can heal about 5000 HP in 5 seconds on my shaman and still be at 80% mana. Unless you're a combat build with good gear that can sustain 250+ dps, rogues are one of the easier classes for me to take. If I can live through their opener, which is usually pretty easy with nature's switness, then my healing can easily outpace their damage. Ideally, I just kite them to death without ever entering melee range again.

A well geared warrior, on the other hand, can make mincemeat out of me because they do the same dps as a rogue with twice as much armor and way more HP, AND I have to deal with the mortal strike healing debuff. To top it all off, I can't dispell their hamstring, unlike a rogue's crippling poison, so kiting is out of the question.

So anyways, I think the whole pvp class balance debate is heavily influenced by the class you play. I don't think there's ever been a class that has collectively admitted they are overpowered. Much to the contrary, most people, if asked, would tell you that their class falls somewhere towards the bottom class balance continuum. Since everyone think's their class sucks in pvp, I'll chalk it up to selective perception.

On a completely different subject, a have a very legitimate gripe. Compared to shamans, paladins are clearly the superior support class in pve. You have greater blessings that last 15 minutes with no range and auras that never fade with a 30 yard range, compared to our 1 minute totems with a 20 yard range (and you have to be in the party with the shaman to actually receive a benefit from it). Now THAT'S imbalance.

Yeah, Shammys are actually a class that's beatable, even without cookie cutter builds.
I dueled a resto shammy and managed over 500 DPS during the fight, the NS heal aside he didn't get a single one off

The reason shammys are doable is because they have no way of keeping us at range/stunned/whatever.
The other classes that can't are Pallys and priests.
Pallys are doable, depends on their luck and spec of course, but still very much doable now with the shared shield cooldown.
Shadow priests...ugh, if you outgear them you can get them down, but face melters with good gear will out DPS you and heal with VA.

As for not admiting your class is overpowered, I'll gladly admit we were once, and as it stands now, priests are definitely overpowered, and I have one of those as well, he's wearing blues, granted rather good blues, but his gear sucks compared to my warr, and he has a far easier time PvP'ing than my warr.
Well, had before I PvE speced him that is...

Oh and Bachman, don't worry, I have a reply for you too, I just forgot to send it before I left work today, and it was too long for me to type again

 

[CKent]

Honestly the best rogues in PvP never try to duel you, they are always helping someone else jump you

Yep.. and think about why this is, for a moment. In a recent "what's your 3 easiest HKs" thread it was humorous to see every response, regardless of class, list rogues in the top 3. Priests and mages weep inconsolably about how overpowered we are; in reality, this is because we single them out since they're the only classes we stand a snowflake's chance in hell against.

If it makes you any happier I started a rogue the other week, and I'm looking forward to hitting the higher levels and being the number 1 DB/HK/DPS under all circumstances.

You (and the 57 rogue who posted) would do well to realize rogues are fairly fun & powerful in all aspects of gameplay 1-59. While he can join an AV and get a taste of what it's like in group PvP, you'd need to be doing the 20-40mans to understand how much end-game content gimps us by rendering sap and stuns completely useless and by giving every mob, trash or boss, AEs which mean either a) we get owned and soak up a ton of healing or b) we back off to avoid taking so much damage and the classes which, from range, do 90% as much damage as a rogue going all-out are now doing far more damage. Itemization blows as well; As I mentioned, only two pieces of the tier 2 set are a clear upgrade. One piece is a significant downgrade, and the other 5 are about equal or slightly less powerful, depending how you value crit %. The tier 1 set has a superior 5pc bonus to the tier 2 5pc bonus (the 3 and 8 pc bonuses for each set are worthless). There are no dagger rogue upgrades in all of BWL, for good measure, and only one sword upgrade.

#1 on the BG listing? You high? Hunters always take that spot (and the 10 under it). Sometimes a shaman, mage or a tier 2 warlock will sneak in. On occasion I will be on my rogue, but only because I don't waste my time with any classes at full hp other than mages & priests, and have no compunction about throwing a quick backstab at someone who's low on hp through no help of my own.

 

[doornail]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Less than thrilled about the continued warrior nerfs though.

I agree.

Seems like every patch includes a couple tiny warrior nerfs -- like a stick being whittled on. The changes are usually minimal but almost always negative. I'm just really, really, weary of it.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Honestly the best rogues in PvP never try to duel you, they are always helping someone else jump you

Yep.. and think about why this is, for a moment. In a recent "what's your 3 easiest HKs" thread it was humorous to see every response, regardless of class, list rogues in the top 3. Priests and mages weep inconsolably about how overpowered we are; in reality, this is because we single them out since they're the only classes we stand a snowflake's chance in hell against.

If it makes you any happier I started a rogue the other week, and I'm looking forward to hitting the higher levels and being the number 1 DB/HK/DPS under all circumstances.

You (and the 57 rogue who posted) would do well to realize rogues are fairly fun & powerful in all aspects of gameplay 1-59. While he can join an AV and get a taste of what it's like in group PvP, you'd need to be doing the 20-40mans to understand how much end-game content gimps us by rendering sap and stuns completely useless and by giving every mob, trash or boss, AEs which mean either a) we get owned and soak up a ton of healing or b) we back off to avoid taking so much damage and the classes which, from range, do 90% as much damage as a rogue going all-out are now doing far more damage. Itemization blows as well; As I mentioned, only two pieces of the tier 2 set are a clear upgrade. One piece is a significant downgrade, and the other 5 are about equal or slightly less powerful, depending how you value crit %. The tier 1 set has a superior 5pc bonus to the tier 2 5pc bonus (the 3 and 8 pc bonuses for each set are worthless). There are no dagger rogue upgrades in all of BWL, for good measure, and only one sword upgrade.

#1 on the BG listing? You high? Hunters always take that spot (and the 10 under it). Sometimes a shaman, mage or a tier 2 warlock will sneak in. On occasion I will be on my rogue, but only because I don't waste my time with any classes at full hp other than mages & priests, and have no compunction about throwing a quick backstab at someone who's low on hp through no help of my own.

num 1 in BGs on my server is a warrior on the ali side anyway "Chromaggus" you can check it to make sure, TWIX was the only Marshal for a long time, no GMs yet but a bunch of marshals, i love playing as a rogue, and rolled one fully knowing what i was gonna face when i hit 60, and i dont care, i will deal, i woudl just like blizz to look at the class and realize that they have seriously hurt it

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Honestly the best rogues in PvP never try to duel you, they are always helping someone else jump you

Yep.. and think about why this is, for a moment. In a recent "what's your 3 easiest HKs" thread it was humorous to see every response, regardless of class, list rogues in the top 3. Priests and mages weep inconsolably about how overpowered we are; in reality, this is because we single them out since they're the only classes we stand a snowflake's chance in hell against.

If it makes you any happier I started a rogue the other week, and I'm looking forward to hitting the higher levels and being the number 1 DB/HK/DPS under all circumstances.

You (and the 57 rogue who posted) would do well to realize rogues are fairly fun & powerful in all aspects of gameplay 1-59. While he can join an AV and get a taste of what it's like in group PvP, you'd need to be doing the 20-40mans to understand how much end-game content gimps us by rendering sap and stuns completely useless and by giving every mob, trash or boss, AEs which mean either a) we get owned and soak up a ton of healing or b) we back off to avoid taking so much damage and the classes which, from range, do 90% as much damage as a rogue going all-out are now doing far more damage. Itemization blows as well; As I mentioned, only two pieces of the tier 2 set are a clear upgrade. One piece is a significant downgrade, and the other 5 are about equal or slightly less powerful, depending how you value crit %. The tier 1 set has a superior 5pc bonus to the tier 2 5pc bonus (the 3 and 8 pc bonuses for each set are worthless). There are no dagger rogue upgrades in all of BWL, for good measure, and only one sword upgrade.

#1 on the BG listing? You high? Hunters always take that spot (and the 10 under it). Sometimes a shaman, mage or a tier 2 warlock will sneak in. On occasion I will be on my rogue, but only because I don't waste my time with any classes at full hp other than mages & priests, and have no compunction about throwing a quick backstab at someone who's low on hp through no help of my own.

Like I said, my rogue is still in his youner levels. Though the experience I can pull from playing from my main and alts gives me a much better insight into using the rogue toolbag against opponents. I'm even getting decent with sprint so I can force a mage to blow frost nova as I slap him and strafe out of range. I think playing a rogue has more to do with knowing the classes you are fighting. I'm looking heavily to either going stunlock or full blown combat. Ambush/Backstab works nice on soft targets, but it doesn't get the job done on mail or plate unless you use a vanish/tea combo everytime. It can be done, but it limits you to using restricted skills to taking out certain classes.

As for Shaman and hamstring, you can trinket out of that so don't be silly.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: doornail

Originally posted by: Sunner
Less than thrilled about the continued warrior nerfs though.

I agree.

Seems like every patch includes a couple tiny warrior nerfs -- like a stick being whittled on. The changes are usually minimal but almost always negative. I'm just really, really, weary of it.

The fact this is new to you clearly shows who's had it worse off. Every patch since the game began has included small rogue nerfs that weren't mentioned in the patch notes. Many patches even had big rogue nerfs to go along with them. Most rogues understand at this point that, for whatever inexplicable reason, the dev team hates us.

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: TGS
As for Shaman and hamstring, you can trinket out of that so don't be silly.

As if he can't trinket out of my frost shock and immediately hamstring me again..

My only chance of survival comes from reaching into my bag of tricks (aka engineering).

 

[TGS]

Though you can toss down a earthbind totem, frost shock then start to run away/Ghostwolf. I also did mention engineering. If everyone was an engineer then it throws the entire spectrum out of balance. Though it's clearly the PVP profession, IMO.

Edit: also the cooldown on frostshock is a wee bit short than a warriors trinket anyway.

 

[makken]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: NeoV
Druids blow in PvP? Wow, that's a first...just wait until a bear with 11k armor is now able to use trinkets, health pots, and speed boosts without shifting out of form

Armor doesn't mean a thing to my elemental shaman, I eat druids for breakfast. My rogue is limited to priests & mages if I want even a slight shot at winning (and this is in epic gear), so a druid is just one of the many classes that can rape me, nothing new there. PvP is about burst, mostly non-melee damage output since armor factors so heavily into the melee equation. Druids just don't have it. They get survivability instead, which is weak in PvP. Who wins in a battleground, the guy with no kills, sitting & drinking an 8 silver water for 30 seconds after the battle, or the guy with 2-3 kills spawning close by in 15 seconds average, full hp & mana?

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Yeah, in PvP: Warlocks > Shamans > Druids > Hunter > *

I'd put it at Hunter = Warlock > Shaman... Going a bit farther, Priest > Warrior, but those are a bit iffy - past the first three it's more about matchups and gear than class.

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: TGS
Ahh now the mighty warlocks will feel pain of the warriors blade again. Death Coil breaking fear immunity was ridiculous. I could spank most people 1vs1 on my warrior, but a warlock wasn't even a fight with death coil. As far as trouble I didn't have much problems with hunters myself. Though I played a dirty NE warrior. So if I saw them coming towards my direction first I could stealth up and get that first charge almost all the time. Shadowmeld was also nice to meld and go hit the bathroom without worries of being ganked, lol.

Rumor has it shadowmeld is going to be nerfed next patch. You'll now have to be sitting to stay melded, so no more aimed shot from stealth.

Close. What's happening is that all spells and skills, even rogue sprint which specificially says on the tool tip that it doesn't break stealth, will now break stealth/shadowmeld when they first begin to be cast. That means no more aimed shot from shadowmeld on NE hunters, no more hearthing from shadowmeld or stealth, no more applying poison (this broke stealth anyway, but not until the first of two was actually applied, giving you a slight headstart). You can still do these things, you'll just become visible the second you start. In true WoW tradition, this nerf rapes rogues the hardest.

While I'm glad to see hunters addressed, the nerf will only affect group PvP where their counter, to get in close, is often impossible, and their strength, ranged damage, is highlighted - and only slightly at that. What needs to happen is for pets to stop seeing stealthed rogues and for mark to not negate stealth for a full two minutes. The class is built to kill rogues (what class isn't?) but this is what flare and track stealthed are for. Mark and the pet thing are bullsh!t, in fact I believe Blizzard has even stated that the pet thing is a bug - but given their track record for fixing bugs, it may as well be intended because it sure as fsck isn't ever going to get fixed. I wouldn't mind seeing scattershot done away with as well, does a class which can top damage meters really need THIS much utility? They already have instant cast invisible traps, while a rogue has to channel a skill, unstealthed, to disarm them - with a 3 minute buff to even see them. Come on, seriously.

I honestly believe the dev team, when they actually play (can't be often, considering the glaring imbalances), has been ganked by the 1% of rogues who grief and taken it personally. The pettiness isn't surprising, considering many of them are former Sony employees. It would explain the inexplicable super-buffing of hunters since they're rogues' dps rival, who instead of getting the needed nerfs are receiving just a slight, slight damage nerf (the same "normalization" one rogues got up the behind in 1.8.. or was it 1.7? 1.rogue-rape is closer but I guess they can't name their patches like that). Ever have a look at the ZG enchants? Hunters get 100hp, 24ap 1% hit, rogues get 26ap, 1% dodge. Dodge doesn't work against ranged attacks, cleaves, whirlwinds, stomps or magic damage, and it's actually detrimental to dodge a warrior in PvP. Rogues worth their salt get the constitution libram instead.. and yet hunters - a ranged class - get the same 100hp but with other lovely stats.

Having vented, I feel much better now

My main's a 60 NE Hunter.
While you do bring up some good points, there are a few things I'll like to address:

1) While I tend to agree that using Shadowmeld + Aimshot is a bit cheap, with the lost of that ability, Horde just dominates Alliance in terms of PvP racials. 25% Stun resist, WoTF, Warstomp are all incredible abilities in PvP.

2) The pets seeing stealth rogues I'll agree has got to go, but hunter's mark only reveals the rogue to the hunter, no one else. So you can still use vanish from that warrior as long as the hunter is not shooting at you.

3) Track Hidden is worthless. It sightly increases detection range, but by the time we see you, you're already in our deadzone. I usually rely on flare to catch rogues.

4) If you follow the patchnotes, you'll notice that hunters get nerf'ed in someway in pretty much every patch except 1.7

5) Falcon's Call is a great enchant, but the rest of hunter itemization sucks. Beginning with the ZG set, it's as if the devs. suddenly didn't know how to design hunter gear anymore--have you seen our tier 3 (AQ) set? +spell damage... on a hunter's gear.. just wtf were they smoking? Also, we have to fight rogues for weapons-- the absolute best weapon combo for a hunter (pre AQ, haven't seen all the drops in there yet) is a Hakkari Warblade main hand + Fang of the Faceless dagger, the best weapon combo pre-ZG/MC is the Dal'Rend's sword set, which will probably make rogues cry.. but unfortuneately, it's true. With the new +25 agility enchant to 2 handers, some warrior weapons are mightly appealing to hunters as well. no wonder we're considered loot whores.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: makken

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: NeoV
Druids blow in PvP? Wow, that's a first...just wait until a bear with 11k armor is now able to use trinkets, health pots, and speed boosts without shifting out of form

Armor doesn't mean a thing to my elemental shaman, I eat druids for breakfast. My rogue is limited to priests & mages if I want even a slight shot at winning (and this is in epic gear), so a druid is just one of the many classes that can rape me, nothing new there. PvP is about burst, mostly non-melee damage output since armor factors so heavily into the melee equation. Druids just don't have it. They get survivability instead, which is weak in PvP. Who wins in a battleground, the guy with no kills, sitting & drinking an 8 silver water for 30 seconds after the battle, or the guy with 2-3 kills spawning close by in 15 seconds average, full hp & mana?

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Yeah, in PvP: Warlocks > Shamans > Druids > Hunter > *

I'd put it at Hunter = Warlock > Shaman... Going a bit farther, Priest > Warrior, but those are a bit iffy - past the first three it's more about matchups and gear than class.

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: TGS
Ahh now the mighty warlocks will feel pain of the warriors blade again. Death Coil breaking fear immunity was ridiculous. I could spank most people 1vs1 on my warrior, but a warlock wasn't even a fight with death coil. As far as trouble I didn't have much problems with hunters myself. Though I played a dirty NE warrior. So if I saw them coming towards my direction first I could stealth up and get that first charge almost all the time. Shadowmeld was also nice to meld and go hit the bathroom without worries of being ganked, lol.

Rumor has it shadowmeld is going to be nerfed next patch. You'll now have to be sitting to stay melded, so no more aimed shot from stealth.

Close. What's happening is that all spells and skills, even rogue sprint which specificially says on the tool tip that it doesn't break stealth, will now break stealth/shadowmeld when they first begin to be cast. That means no more aimed shot from shadowmeld on NE hunters, no more hearthing from shadowmeld or stealth, no more applying poison (this broke stealth anyway, but not until the first of two was actually applied, giving you a slight headstart). You can still do these things, you'll just become visible the second you start. In true WoW tradition, this nerf rapes rogues the hardest.

While I'm glad to see hunters addressed, the nerf will only affect group PvP where their counter, to get in close, is often impossible, and their strength, ranged damage, is highlighted - and only slightly at that. What needs to happen is for pets to stop seeing stealthed rogues and for mark to not negate stealth for a full two minutes. The class is built to kill rogues (what class isn't?) but this is what flare and track stealthed are for. Mark and the pet thing are bullsh!t, in fact I believe Blizzard has even stated that the pet thing is a bug - but given their track record for fixing bugs, it may as well be intended because it sure as fsck isn't ever going to get fixed. I wouldn't mind seeing scattershot done away with as well, does a class which can top damage meters really need THIS much utility? They already have instant cast invisible traps, while a rogue has to channel a skill, unstealthed, to disarm them - with a 3 minute buff to even see them. Come on, seriously.

I honestly believe the dev team, when they actually play (can't be often, considering the glaring imbalances), has been ganked by the 1% of rogues who grief and taken it personally. The pettiness isn't surprising, considering many of them are former Sony employees. It would explain the inexplicable super-buffing of hunters since they're rogues' dps rival, who instead of getting the needed nerfs are receiving just a slight, slight damage nerf (the same "normalization" one rogues got up the behind in 1.8.. or was it 1.7? 1.rogue-rape is closer but I guess they can't name their patches like that). Ever have a look at the ZG enchants? Hunters get 100hp, 24ap 1% hit, rogues get 26ap, 1% dodge. Dodge doesn't work against ranged attacks, cleaves, whirlwinds, stomps or magic damage, and it's actually detrimental to dodge a warrior in PvP. Rogues worth their salt get the constitution libram instead.. and yet hunters - a ranged class - get the same 100hp but with other lovely stats.

Having vented, I feel much better now

My main's a 60 NE Hunter.
While you do bring up some good points, there are a few things I'll like to address:

1) While I tend to agree that using Shadowmeld + Aimshot is a bit cheap, with the lost of that ability, Horde just dominates Alliance in terms of PvP racials. 25% Stun resist, WoTF, Warstomp are all incredible abilities in PvP.

2) The pets seeing stealth rogues I'll agree has got to go, but hunter's mark only reveals the rogue to the hunter, no one else. So you can still use vanish from that warrior as long as the hunter is not shooting at you.

3) Track Hidden is worthless. It sightly increases detection range, but by the time we see you, you're already in our deadzone. I usually rely on flare to catch rogues.

4) If you follow the patchnotes, you'll notice that hunters get nerf'ed in someway in pretty much every patch except 1.7

5) Falcon's Call is a great enchant, but the rest of hunter itemization sucks. Beginning with the ZG set, it's as if the devs. suddenly didn't know how to design hunter gear anymore--have you seen our tier 3 (AQ) set? +spell damage... on a hunter's gear.. just wtf were they smoking? Also, we have to fight rogues for weapons-- the absolute best weapon combo for a hunter (pre AQ, haven't seen all the drops in there yet) is a Hakkari Warblade main hand + Fang of the Faceless dagger, the best weapon combo pre-ZG/MC is the Dal'Rend's sword set, which will probably make rogues cry.. but unfortuneately, it's true. With the new +25 agility enchant to 2 handers, some warrior weapons are mightly appealing to hunters as well. no wonder we're considered loot whores.

a hunter offhanding FotF makes me wanna cry, you are offhanding one of the best MH daggers in the game

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: makken
My main's a 60 NE Hunter.
While you do bring up some good points, there are a few things I'll like to address:

1) While I tend to agree that using Shadowmeld + Aimshot is a bit cheap, with the lost of that ability, Horde just dominates Alliance in terms of PvP racials. 25% Stun resist, WoTF, Warstomp are all incredible abilities in PvP.

2) The pets seeing stealth rogues I'll agree has got to go, but hunter's mark only reveals the rogue to the hunter, no one else. So you can still use vanish from that warrior as long as the hunter is not shooting at you.

3) Track Hidden is worthless. It sightly increases detection range, but by the time we see you, you're already in our deadzone. I usually rely on flare to catch rogues.

4) If you follow the patchnotes, you'll notice that hunters get nerf'ed in someway in pretty much every patch except 1.7

5) Falcon's Call is a great enchant, but the rest of hunter itemization sucks. Beginning with the ZG set, it's as if the devs. suddenly didn't know how to design hunter gear anymore--have you seen our tier 3 (AQ) set? +spell damage... on a hunter's gear.. just wtf were they smoking? Also, we have to fight rogues for weapons-- the absolute best weapon combo for a hunter (pre AQ, haven't seen all the drops in there yet) is a Hakkari Warblade main hand + Fang of the Faceless dagger, the best weapon combo pre-ZG/MC is the Dal'Rend's sword set, which will probably make rogues cry.. but unfortuneately, it's true. With the new +25 agility enchant to 2 handers, some warrior weapons are mightly appealing to hunters as well. no wonder we're considered loot whores.

a hunter offhanding FotF makes me wanna cry, you are offhanding one of the best MH daggers in the game

And for nothing but stats... jesus.. I'm glad most guilds are like mine and give rogues priority on melee weaps and hunters on ranged ones. I wouldn't join a guild which didn't operate this way. Anyway, the hunter review thoroughly negated any nerfs you may have received, as it turned you into gods. FFS you're only just now getting the normalization nerf that hit rogues so long ago.

Lastly, I'm about 95% sure mark shows rogues to others, even if only in the hunter's party and/or raid. I've been marked in stealth and attacked by too many non-hunters to give them the benefit of the doubt at using cats eye elixers or goggles, etc.

Originally posted by: TGS
Though you can toss down a earthbind totem, frost shock then start to run away/Ghostwolf.

And the warrior can intercept you. Ghost wolf has a 3 second base cast, btw, 1 second with talents that many shamans, myself included, skip over. It can be cast instantly using NS, another talent many shamans, myself included, skip over, which is on a 3 minute timer.

Edit: also the cooldown on frostshock is a wee bit short than a warriors trinket anyway.

And the cooldown on hamstring is 5 minutes?

 

[makken]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: makken
My main's a 60 NE Hunter.
While you do bring up some good points, there are a few things I'll like to address:

1) While I tend to agree that using Shadowmeld + Aimshot is a bit cheap, with the lost of that ability, Horde just dominates Alliance in terms of PvP racials. 25% Stun resist, WoTF, Warstomp are all incredible abilities in PvP.

2) The pets seeing stealth rogues I'll agree has got to go, but hunter's mark only reveals the rogue to the hunter, no one else. So you can still use vanish from that warrior as long as the hunter is not shooting at you.

3) Track Hidden is worthless. It sightly increases detection range, but by the time we see you, you're already in our deadzone. I usually rely on flare to catch rogues.

4) If you follow the patchnotes, you'll notice that hunters get nerf'ed in someway in pretty much every patch except 1.7

5) Falcon's Call is a great enchant, but the rest of hunter itemization sucks. Beginning with the ZG set, it's as if the devs. suddenly didn't know how to design hunter gear anymore--have you seen our tier 3 (AQ) set? +spell damage... on a hunter's gear.. just wtf were they smoking? Also, we have to fight rogues for weapons-- the absolute best weapon combo for a hunter (pre AQ, haven't seen all the drops in there yet) is a Hakkari Warblade main hand + Fang of the Faceless dagger, the best weapon combo pre-ZG/MC is the Dal'Rend's sword set, which will probably make rogues cry.. but unfortuneately, it's true. With the new +25 agility enchant to 2 handers, some warrior weapons are mightly appealing to hunters as well. no wonder we're considered loot whores.

a hunter offhanding FotF makes me wanna cry, you are offhanding one of the best MH daggers in the game

And for nothing but stats... jesus.. I'm glad most guilds are like mine and give rogues priority on melee weaps and hunters on ranged ones. I wouldn't join a guild which didn't operate this way. Anyway, the hunter review thoroughly negated any nerfs you may have received, as it turned you into gods. FFS you're only just now getting the normalization nerf that hit rogues so long ago.

Lastly, I'm about 95% sure mark shows rogues to others, even if only in the hunter's party and/or raid. I've been marked in stealth and attacked by too many non-hunters to give them the benefit of the doubt at using cats eye elixers or goggles, etc.

Originally posted by: TGS
Though you can toss down a earthbind totem, frost shock then start to run away/Ghostwolf.

And the warrior can intercept you. Ghost wolf has a 3 second base cast, btw, 1 second with talents that many shamans, myself included, skip over. It can be cast instantly using NS, another talent many shamans, myself included, skip over, which is on a 3 minute timer.

Edit: also the cooldown on frostshock is a wee bit short than a warriors trinket anyway.

And the cooldown on hamstring is 5 minutes?

see what I mean on the loot? I don't blame you though blame bliz for making rogues and hunters compete for the same weapons. the guild I used to be in gave hunters first dibs at FotF while rogues got first dibs on CHT. Personally I would pass FotF to a rogue if he really wanted it; but i'll make him run ZG with me until it dropped again =P

the 1.7 review mainly boosted our BM (pet) and Survial (melee/PvP) trees, and barely did anything to our MM (ranged damage) tree. We actually did a lot more damage back before 1.7, before Mortal Shots got nerfed (used to do an extra 50% damage on crits, now only does an extra 30%) 3000+ aim shot crits were the norm back in the day, vs. the "sucky" 2.5k now.

What we did gain from our review was a big, red, unstoppable pet (fun for a while, but really only useful aganist colth--now being toned down), and a survial tree worth actually putting points in to.

For what it's worth, the normalization 'nerf' will really only affect hunters with CSX, BSX, or that unpronouncable crossbow of smiting. After the math was done, I believe we lost about 19 damage on an aimshot crit with rhok, our epic bow. pretty much every other weapon got a boost in damage.

I'll have to look back into the hunter's mark thing. I remember there was a huge debate about it in the hunter's forums and long time ago. the description to hunter's mark is:
"Places the Hunter's Mark on the target, increasing the Ranged Attack Power of all attackers against that target by xx. In addition, the target of this ability can always be seen by the hunter whether it stealths or turns invisible. The target also appears on the mini-map. Lasts for 2 min."

 

[CKent]

Ya, I know what the tooltip says, I have a hunter alt.. but haven't pvp'd any on him. I'm going by what I've had happen on my rogue. Even if its a bug, it may as well be intended because blizzard does not fix bugs.

Ps - If you can't see the difference between using something for stats and using it as your main source of damage output, you're in the minority among high-end raiders (though you'd fit right in on PUG ubrs runs... lol). And that comforts me

 

[makken]

Originally posted by: RBachman
Ya, I know what the tooltip says, I have a hunter alt.. but haven't pvp'd any on him. I'm going by what I've had happen on my rogue. Even if its a bug, it may as well be intended because blizzard does not fix bugs.

Ps - If you can't see the difference between using something for stats and using it as your main source of damage output, you're in the minority among high-end raiders (though you'd fit right in on PUG ubrs runs... lol). And that comforts me

hey, I never said i didn't see the difference, all I said was that FotF was also damn good for hunters. I said i hated bliz for making rogues and hunters compete for the same damn weapons... and If you can't see that, then well...

you're in the minority among high-end raiders (though you'd fit right in on PUG ubrs runs... lol). And that comforts me

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: TGS
Though you can toss down a earthbind totem, frost shock then start to run away/Ghostwolf.

And the warrior can intercept you. Ghost wolf has a 3 second base cast, btw, 1 second with talents that many shamans, myself included, skip over. It can be cast instantly using NS, another talent many shamans, myself included, skip over, which is on a 3 minute timer.

Edit: also the cooldown on frostshock is a wee bit short than a warriors trinket anyway.

And the cooldown on hamstring is 5 minutes?

It's always on a per fight basis. If you can shock a warrior before he charges, he has to blow intercept to get back in range. I'm not saying it's going to be an easy task, though if you can get range after the first intercept and get some slows going down plate or no plate kiting a warrior is an easy task.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: makken

Originally posted by: RBachman
Ya, I know what the tooltip says, I have a hunter alt.. but haven't pvp'd any on him. I'm going by what I've had happen on my rogue. Even if its a bug, it may as well be intended because blizzard does not fix bugs.

Ps - If you can't see the difference between using something for stats and using it as your main source of damage output, you're in the minority among high-end raiders (though you'd fit right in on PUG ubrs runs... lol). And that comforts me

hey, I never said i didn't see the difference, all I said was that FotF was also damn good for hunters. I said i hated bliz for making rogues and hunters compete for the same damn weapons... and If you can't see that, then well...

you're in the minority among high-end raiders (though you'd fit right in on PUG ubrs runs... lol). And that comforts me

There's no competition. Rogues get priority on melee weaps. When we're done we feed you our scraps

 

[Sunner]

Player skill is low across the class spectrum. If only a very skilled rogue can beat a warrior more times than not (and this is indeed the case) it means one of three things; that rogues are a bad matchup against warriors (I hate the 'rock-paper-scissors' cliche, but that's what I'm getting at), that rogues are underpowered, or that warriors are overpowered.

Once warriors were indeed the rock to the scissor rogues.

With a by and large incompetent playerbase, you could say in 95% of 1v1 encounters warriors are overpowered then.

Judging classes based on people who can't play them isn't fair.
If you did that, no one would want shamans in instances for example, since most of them just run around earthshocking everything they see, while a good one is an enormous asset.

Certainly small in comparison to rogues. Does 70% of your total damage output, post-nerf, come from instants? It's great hearing you cry about overpower though, which is SO aptly named, by the way. Especially considering the devs seem to think rogues want dodge and put it in our itemization (like the sh!tty ZG enchant which is inferior to 100hp, while hunters get the same AP, 1% hit, AND 100hp)... Yeah giving warriors a free shot in PvP, and doing NOTHING vs. stomps, cleaves, whirlwinds, AoE spells in PvE, is really sweet! Thanks devs, <3 my dodge and Overpower!

Fair enough, we give up overpower if we get a couple of stuns instead.
Or maybe a way to get out of fights, even out of combat if things go badly in instances(and yes, I know it doesn't work in MC/BWL/AQ anymore), stealth, sprint, etc.
Bringing up racials is also funny, I'm sure priests don't mind rogues having dual fear resists then.

Certainly small in comparison to rogues. Does 70% of your total damage output, post-nerf, come from instants? It's great hearing you cry about overpower though, which is SO aptly named, by the way. Especially considering the devs seem to think rogues want dodge and put it in our itemization (like the sh!tty ZG enchant which is inferior to 100hp, while hunters get the same AP, 1% hit, AND 100hp)... Yeah giving warriors a free shot in PvP, and doing NOTHING vs. stomps, cleaves, whirlwinds, AoE spells in PvE, is really sweet! Thanks devs, <3 my dodge and Overpower!

In PvP, yes a huge portion of a warriors's damage will come from instants, even more so against a rogue since you'll spend 80%+ of the fight stunned, so when you're not stunned, you wanna be able to give him a whack quickly.

Lucky to be completely ignored.. good one

Well, would you like it more if Tigole came into the rogue forum and told you they were nerfing Eviscerate because rogues were spamming it all the time?

Sounds far more useful than rogues to me. 4 other classes can fill my role and do a better job of it. One is warrior. Yet they also have the option to fill a role only they can fill. Yeah, it must be tough indeed

Yep, you're right.
We'll nevermind rogues next time we do BWL and AQ, sure their ability to dump agro is kinda useful on the drakes, and being able to stun Battleguard Sartura's adds is somewhat useful, but I'm sure lots of other classes can fill those roles, and more.

 

[CKent]

Warriors are still the rock. I only have a chance if their gear is vastly inferior to mine - and only a chance. And not against orcs.

A way to get out of fights? Intimidating Shout sound familiar? Piercing Howl? Hamstring ffs?

Nice copout on the damage issue. Until you tell me with a straight face that a damage meter will show that a f/a warr's output is 70% instants, please stop addressing this issue by dodging it... you trying to be a rogue?

Yes, actually, I would prefer a blue name pulled a faux pas like that in the rogue forum. It would stuff a sock in the stupid fanboys' mouths (many of whom I'm beginning to think are Blizzard PR people posing as players).

Hunters can completely wipe aggro every 30 seconds, rogues' ability to dump it is vastly inferior. Usefulness on one specific encounter does not make for a balanced class.

 

[Sunner]

Vanish? Wipes agro.

There's a by now quite famous rogue on the server I'm playing, he's been on a long break now so his gear isn't very good, Krol Blade and that epic from Rend are his best epics I believe, and he still beats most warriors on the server, including MS warrs wielding Ashkandis, Drake Talon Cleavers, etc, he has stunlocking down to perfection.

And what copout are you talking about on the damage issue?
The only time a warrior will have significant portions of his damage coming from auto attack will be against other warriors, paladins, druids, etc, classes where you're pretty much just pummeling each other to death.

Mages, locks, hunters, rogues, all are classes where you need very fast bursts of damage since you won't have much time to hit.
Care to guess how good a 3.8 speed 2hander is for instant bursts of damage?

And yeah, getting out of fights, let's see...
IS, well everyone can break fear, PvP trinkets, Wotf, fear ward, etc.
Hamstring? Rogues will have slowing poison on you, shammys can frost shock you, warlocks can put CoE, mages will blink to catch you, druids...no comment needed, etc.
Pallys you can run from, assuming they don't have their ranged execute ready and you're low enough on HP that it'll actually kill you.

Oh and since you seem to think overpower is so overpowered(Oh my god, evasion isn't an insta-win button, nerf overpower!!!!1111), how many warrs do you think stay in Battle Stance when fighting a rogue?
Yes, you need to be in Battle Stance to use OP(which, like I said has been stealth nerfed anyway).

Btw, for the damage meters, I tend not to PvP/duel any more since it's just frustrating these days, but I do keep Recap running when PvE'ing.
Around 60-65% of my DPS is white during your average MC/BWL/AQ run, that's when hitting on stationary targets that don't hit back.
Care to guess how that changes when you have a stunlocking rogue to fight instead? A blinking mage? Etc.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Vanish? Wipes agro.

Every 5 minutes, and uses a reagent which only stacks to 10, for a class whose bags are already bursting at the seams from all the sh1t we have to carry. Feign death is on a 30 second timer.

There's a by now quite famous rogue on the server I'm playing, he's been on a long break now so his gear isn't very good, Krol Blade and that epic from Rend are his best epics I believe, and he still beats most warriors on the server, including MS warrs wielding Ashkandis, Drake Talon Cleavers, etc, he has stunlocking down to perfection.

Skill & practice =/= class balance, we've been over this. There are more famous warriors on my server who own people than other classes; I can think of only 2 rogues and one mage as infamous as the numerous warriors who are ubiquitous.

Mages, locks, hunters, rogues, all are classes where you need very fast bursts of damage since you won't have much time to hit. One of them is an MS warr friend of mine, rank 10 & mostly blues but wielding a Typhoon - on the server realm in a "who do you hate most in PvP" someone brought up his name
Care to guess how good a 3.8 speed 2hander is for instant bursts of damage?

Pretty good, considering the epic ones rape my 4600ac w/ shield shaman, not to mention my poor 1700ac rogue.

And yeah, getting out of fights, let's see...
IS, well everyone can break fear

Nope. Regardless, you made this point in the context of PvE.

Oh and since you seem to think overpower is so overpowered(Oh my god, evasion isn't an insta-win button, nerf overpower!!!!1111), how many warrs do you think stay in Battle Stance when fighting a rogue?

Good point

Around 60-65% of my DPS is white during your average MC/BWL/AQ run, that's when hitting on stationary targets that don't hit back.
Care to guess how that changes when you have a stunlocking rogue to fight instead? A blinking mage? Etc.

Ahh finally an answer, one which proves beyond the shadow of a doubt who got nailed harder (and wow, it's much, much harder) by the normalization nerf. For reference you're 31/20/0 MS, right? If not, do you know the average for MS warrs?

 

[Tremulant]

I really don't have that much trouble with wars 1vs1. When they have a group of healers, they're impossible, but solo it's not a problem. The only classes that give me problems are smart hunters and smart pallies.

In PvE, the only warriors that out DPS me are the fully epic'd out wars that want to show off. I don't even have tier 0 gear and I'm specced 21/3/27 (hemo) for stunlock fun. (will be speccing 15/31/5 or 13/33/5 this weekend though, to try out the combat tree).

Edit: I have 3/8 shadowcraft, but only wear the gloves because I have other gear that's better. MH = sword of zeal, OH = heartseeker.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Tremulant
I really don't have that much trouble with wars 1vs1. When they have a group of healers, they're impossible, but solo it's not a problem. The only classes that give me problems are smart hunters and smart pallies.

In PvE, the only warriors that out DPS me are the fully epic'd out wars that want to show off. I don't even have tier 0 gear and I'm specced 21/3/27 (hemo) for stunlock fun. (will be speccing 15/31/5 or 13/33/5 this weekend though, to try out the combat tree).

Edit: I have 3/8 shadowcraft, but only wear the gloves because I have other gear that's better. MH = sword of zeal, OH = heartseeker.

Maybe you've got a point... I never really PvP'd much when I was combat swords, aside from dueling an MS warr friend with an epic 2h (I was in all blues and lost most of the time). I'm really starting to wonder if I should go back; bid on the first brut blade or vis'kag I see and just OH my sticker. Aside from being worthless against chain & plate, dagger rogues have to deal with lag, which is brutal on my server (one of the oldest & most highly populated). I'll be right behind someone and unable to ambush or backstab them because "You must be behind your target" - and sapping people on the run is impossible for the same reason. Thoughts?

As far as the combat tree, it's great, haven't you tried it? 20/31/0 or 18/33/0 if you really want imp kick are phenomenal builds for pvp and all manner of PvE, it's not like daggers where you have three basic builds to choose from, depending on what you want to do.

 

[TGS]

So on the average 10-15% more overall white damage. Which on my warrior it's fairly similiar, even with dual wield. Think about it, when a slow 2h warrior misses s/he just lost 3+ seconds of rage generation, which is exactly how those instants get generated. Every swing is critical to land to chain dps, either in upgraded (on next attacks), instants, or special abilities like slam. On my rogues I'm around 50-54% white 48-50% and instants. With my combat rogue the lions share is sinisters, with a few percent based on mostly 5 point evis. Looking at higher end rogues combat-spec they look nearly the same % wise. To which I noticed the higher % of instants, the higher percent wise they had the overall damage lead.

Misses, Dodges, and parries all hurt a slow 2handed warriors specials a great deal more than a rogue. Whereas Dodge in battlestance is a bonus, you are recouping a lost attack with a chance of a large critical(In talents). Though being "critical" of talents(pardon the pun), is another venture futility. Imagine if dagger rogues didn't have access to the BS/Ambush/Dagger crit talents, would anyone take them?

In any case, it really just comes down to a per fight basis, gear, the talent of the players behind the characters, and what cool-downs you are willing to blow to win the fight.

 

[NeoV]

another item of interest in the next patch is that for lvl 60 people, turning in quests that give XP will now give you gold instead of XP - I believe the tradeoff is 1600xp = 1g, and I don't believe it will be retro-active at all

anyone who has done the 'demon' questline in the badlands will appreciate that, as well as the fact that they will now teleport your entire party up to the top of that mountain to fight the demon, as long as one person in the party has that quest - I spent several hours trying to pull him down, then we got smart and used rez's to have other party members on the higher levels of the mountain, but it was still a PITA, and I could have gotten a lot of gold from doing the quest line, since I did the entire thing at lvl 60

Test server is nice, but very full...

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Tremulant
I really don't have that much trouble with wars 1vs1. When they have a group of healers, they're impossible, but solo it's not a problem. The only classes that give me problems are smart hunters and smart pallies.

In PvE, the only warriors that out DPS me are the fully epic'd out wars that want to show off. I don't even have tier 0 gear and I'm specced 21/3/27 (hemo) for stunlock fun. (will be speccing 15/31/5 or 13/33/5 this weekend though, to try out the combat tree).

Edit: I have 3/8 shadowcraft, but only wear the gloves because I have other gear that's better. MH = sword of zeal, OH = heartseeker.

Maybe you've got a point... I never really PvP'd much when I was combat swords, aside from dueling an MS warr friend with an epic 2h (I was in all blues and lost most of the time). I'm really starting to wonder if I should go back; bid on the first brut blade or vis'kag I see and just OH my sticker. Aside from being worthless against chain & plate, dagger rogues have to deal with lag, which is brutal on my server (one of the oldest & most highly populated). I'll be right behind someone and unable to ambush or backstab them because "You must be behind your target" - and sapping people on the run is impossible for the same reason. Thoughts?

As far as the combat tree, it's great, haven't you tried it? 20/31/0 or 18/33/0 if you really want imp kick are phenomenal builds for pvp and all manner of PvE, it's not like daggers where you have three basic builds to choose from, depending on what you want to do.

I tried combat at around lvl 51ish... but specced out of it after 2 days, so I've never played a full combat build.

Lag is the biggest problem in pvp, with daggers. I didn't spec out of them because of that though, I specced out of daggers because I got a Sword of Zeal and wanted to make use of it. Plus, I needed to give hemo a real shot.

I'm thinking of 13/33/5 or 15/31/5 (3/5 lethality and 3/5 dual wield spec or 1/5 leth. 5/5 dws), but respecs are (and have been for quite a long time) 50g for me, so I don't like respeccing more than once a month.