Would you genetically tweak your unborn child?

[mk52]

appletalking
I think you read to many science fiction novels cause you way exaggerated the issues of genetic alterations. First of all there are limits to what you can change, we have to distinguish between changing things like hair color and actual enhancements like stronger muscles or better sight. The second is x10 more complicated and would need so much research and testing that it would take another 10-20 years after basic genetic manipulation has become common.
The things we will see in the not too distant future are repairing gene defects, immunization to various diseases, maybe even correct eyesight problems so the child wont have to wear glasses, whereas the last example will be the most extreme alteration you will come across.
Everything more drastic will need much more research and will cost exponentially more -> meaning government/military only.



<< And unlike nuclear technology, genetic engineering is going to be very widespread, very quickly. Once this kind of thing gets out in the open, people are going to be beating down the doors to have doctors make their kids &quot;better.&quot; That's when the chaos starts. >>


Chaos? What are you talking about? Plus how is this going to be widespread? You think every doc can manipulate the genes of a baby in his backyard. I think you need a little more resources than that.



<< You may be right, but I hope and pray that you're wrong. Still, we can only do our small part towards preventing the kind of tragedy that will become a reality with genetic engineering. I'm thinking we could have some kind of severe sanctions or some kind of retaliation against any country that does this kind of thing, but that's assuming the U.S. is willing to undertake an anti-genetic engineering policy in the first place. >>



I not may be right, I am right, sorry to put it that way but in a capitalistic world if you make something illegal it will drift into hands of criminals, who neither care nor think about any type of consequence their actions cause. Imagine the amount of money rich people would be willing to pay to cure or alter their unborn kids.

As to people getting older, everybody would get at least 100 if they would live a healthy life (excluding death of diseases). So living longer is not something gene manipulation is going to make you.

-MeliK

 

[MrHelpful]

Actually, intelligence and athleticism are based more on environment than genes, really.

 

[MrHelpful]

Unless, of course, the person is really short.

 

[d33pt]

anyone watch gattaca? deals with issues like these..

 

[AppleTalking]

<<I think you read to many science fiction novels cause you way exaggerated the issues of genetic alterations. First of all there are limits to what you can change, we have to distinguish between changing things like hair color and actual enhancements like stronger muscles or better sight. The second is x10 more complicated and would need so much research and testing that it would take another 10-20 years after basic genetic manipulation has become common. >>

I never said that you would be able to change every characteristic of your child right away. My point is that once we start down the road of genetic engineering, there will be no turning back. Once you start &quot;enhancing&quot; some things, people will want more and more of their child's chracteristics to be &quot;enhanced.&quot; Whether or not it takes more time for characteristics like height, strength, or other physical features to be able to be altered, the fact of the matter is that (as you yourself pointed out) the technology will eventually become available. And that's when the chaos will start.

You yourself said not to underestimate the capabilities of modern science. Whether it happens 10 years from now or 50 years from now, these kinds of alterations are still going to be a problem in the future. These modifications for certain specific genetic diseases (e.g. Down Syndrome) are the first step towards these more dangerous modifications. And once you take that first step, there's no turning back.

<<Chaos? What are you talking about? Plus how is this going to be widespread? You think every doc can manipulate the genes of a baby in his backyard. I think you need a little more resources than that.>>

Reread my previous posts to find out what kind of chaos I'm talking about. As for genetic engineering becoming widespread, don't you think that every parent is going to want their unborn children to have this kind of treatment? Again, when it comes to our children, we can be incredibly selfish and narrow-minded. Not to say that's always a bad thing, but in this case it certainly is. Every parent will want to have their child genetically modified to be as &quot;perfect&quot; as they can possibly be. This will create a demand for the technology, which will cause it to become more and more widespread.

The &quot;doctor in the backyard&quot; analogy you provide is a little bit extreme. But I do believe that this technology will more and more widespread as it becomes less expensive and demand grows. And as I stated above, there will definitely be a great demand.

If genetic engineering were just a one-shot deal then I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. But consider this situation:

Genetic engineering technology starts to become widespread so that it is available to a large percentage of the population. Again, whether this takes a decade or a century is irrelevant because (as you said, remember ) the technology is inevitable. The first generation of genetically modified children is born. The modifications are only minor: they are slightly stronger, slightly more intelligent, and are slightly more &quot;beautiful&quot; then their parents. These children grow up. When they grow up, they want to give their children the same benefits that they had. Only to do that, they must have their children genetically engineered to be slightly stronger, slightly more intelligent, and slightly more &quot;beautiful&quot; than they themselves are. The cycle repeats . . . and repeats . . . and repeats. Each time these children are a little bit closer to perfect. Genetic engineering becomes a way of competition between people. Soon, whether you will be a success or not in life will be determined by the amount of genetic engineering that your parents were able to afford. If they can't provide enough &quot;enhancements&quot; for you, then you are relegated to an impoverished lifestyle with little or no hope of success in life. You, consequently, can then not afford genetic enhancements for your children. The cycle repeats . . . and repeats . . . and repeats. Meanwhile, the children who were given more genetic enhancements are given a better life because they are judged to be &quot;better&quot; and &quot;more perfect.&quot; They are able to provide more genetic enhancements for their children because they have more money. The cycle repeats . . . and repeats . . . and repeats. What do you end up with? A &quot;master race&quot; of genetically engineered humans who have only gotten where they are because their ancestors however many generations back were able to afford the ultimate in genetic enchancements for their children. They control the world, while the rest of the people live impoverished lives without any chance of success.

Sounds a little bit like &quot;Brave New World&quot; if you ask me. It also sounds a little bit like playing God. Actually, it sounds a lot like playing God.

Nick

 

[351Cleveland]

As of right now, no. About the ONLY thing I would EVER consider is fixing genetic diseases. That is the ONLY thing... no enhancements of any type.

 

[AppleTalking]

<<As to people getting older, everybody would get at least 100 if they would live a healthy life (excluding death of diseases). So living longer is not something gene manipulation is going to make you.>>

Oh I disagree. Genetic engineering has an enormous potential to make people live longer because of all the diseases it can prevent. Just think, if we could prevent heart disease, cancer, AIDS, and every other major disease by genetically engineering our bodies to produce the appropriate antibodies, we could live for a very long time, definitely longer than 100. As I said before, this would only add to the population problems this planet has.

Sad but true.

Nick

 

[lupohki]

I would tweak him/her to sh!t gold.

 

[Electric Amish]

Is that anything like overclocking???

amish

 

[Peetoeng]

<< Is that anything like overclocking???

amish >>



Doesn't overclocking shorten life expectancy, be that of a a chip or a chump?

If people live even longer, there will more old, seniles out on the road driving. Very old people behind the wheel scares me!

 

[mk52]

<< Genetic engineering technology starts to become widespread so that it is available to a large percentage of the population. Again, whether this takes a decade or a century is irrelevant because (as you said, remember ) the technology is inevitable. >>



I don?t think that?s irrelevant. Our society needs time to adapt to advancements in technology. So there is a difference whether I can go to the doctor in 5 years and have my kid enhanced or in 40 years. See everything happens slowly, so that people can adapt. In 40 years our environment will be different. I think your reaction is due to the little knowledge we all have of this topic and most of our arguments are pure assumptions anyway. I m pretty sure there will be lots of tv shows, newspaper reports,? tons of material about this issue once it comes closer to reality, so people get an idea what genetic engineering is all about and stop believing those horror stories they see at the movies.



<< The first generation of genetically modified children is born. The modifications are only minor: they are slightly stronger, slightly more intelligent, and are slightly more &quot;beautiful&quot; then their parents. These children grow up. When they grow up, they want to give their children the same benefits that they had. Only to do that, they must have their children genetically engineered to be slightly stronger, slightly more intelligent, and slightly more &quot;beautiful&quot; than they themselves are. The cycle repeats . . . and repeats . . . and repeats. Each time these children are a little bit closer to perfect. Genetic engineering becomes a way of competition between people. Soon, whether you will be a success or not in life will be determined by the amount of genetic engineering that your parents were able to afford. If they can't provide enough &quot;enhancements&quot; for you, then you are relegated to an impoverished lifestyle with little or no hope of success in life. You, consequently, can then not afford genetic enhancements for your children. The cycle repeats . . . and repeats . . . and repeats. Meanwhile, the children who were given more genetic enhancements are given a better life because they are judged to be &quot;better&quot; and &quot;more perfect.&quot; They are able to provide more genetic enhancements for their children because they have more money. The cycle repeats . . . and repeats . . . and repeats. What do you end up with? A &quot;master race&quot; of genetically engineered humans who have only gotten where they are because their ancestors however many generations back were able to afford the ultimate in genetic enhancements for their children. They control the world, while the rest of the people live impoverished lives without any chance of success. >>



Ok, well that is nothing new. As I said before rich parents can afford a better education then poor parents and give their kids an advantage in life. It is a fact that nearly 95% of Harvard students get a highly paid job after graduation. So why isn?t there a chaos of parents sending their kids to Harvard or other elite colleges?? Hey I would love to send my kids (if I had any) to Harvard, but I wouldn?t be able to afford it. As long we don?t live in a society like in StarTrek where there is no money and everything is for free, there will always be different social levels. Crossing these is never easy not even today.

You also concentrate on enhancements all the time, healing diseases is priority number one, so anything cosmetical is science fiction at the moment.

-MeliK

 

[Elledan]

Before the year 2300, we'll have (crude) artifical bodies. Before the year 2400 we'll know how to make a 'copy' of an existing brain and use its structure for an artificial 'brain'.

Genetical engineering will then have lost much of its attractiveness.

You can't stop progresss. A society without progress is dead.

 

[b0mbrman]

I think people do it the natural way subconsciously...Girls look for taller guys or guys with money-making power or good-looking guys...subconsciously, it's to make awesome kids

 

[mk52]

artifical bodies naaah
all I want is a souped up human body where I use 100% of my brain and have enhanced regeneration which makes me live forever since I dont age and of course several muscle and bone modifications.

hey imagine what you could do using 100% of your brain power, telekinesis, telepathy,...

-Melik

 

[Wedesdo]

To AppleTalking and all other people who are against this:

Are your reasons for NOT wanting to have this operation based on moral/religious objections or scientific ones?

I just want to know.

By the way, the government will do NOTHING to out law this and you know it - drug companies donate way too much $$$ for the congressmen to do so, and there is no real reason to outlaw this anyways. If it was outlawed, everyone would just go to Canada (or another country in which it isn't outlawed), get the operation, and come back.

There's no stopping this.

 

[B00ne]

MeliKK: what u described in a previous post ( the thing with the education that only rich parents could afford good education) is only true for your country. In most countries in europe education is for free (college included) so everybody who is up to it is able to get good education.

 

[B00ne]

Wedesdo
my objection is based on moral and ethics
only 50 years ago the nazis wanted to be the master race, so also from this perspective i have very strong objections to this

 

[AppleTalking]

<<I don?t think that?s irrelevant. Our society needs time to adapt to advancements in technology. So there is a difference whether I can go to the doctor in 5 years and have my kid enhanced or in 40 years. See everything happens slowly, so that people can adapt. In 40 years our environment will be different. I think your reaction is due to the little knowledge we all have of this topic and most of our arguments are pure assumptions anyway. I m pretty sure there will be lots of tv shows, newspaper reports,? tons of material about this issue once it comes closer to reality, so people get an idea what genetic engineering is all about and stop believing those horror stories they see at the movies.>>

I'm sorry, I fail to see the difference between this kind of thing happening in 5 years or in 40 years. There are some things in society that never change. Concern for the well-being of one's offspring has always been present in almost every sentient organism. Nothing is going to change the fact that people want what's best for their children. Therefore, whether this technology is around in 5 years or 40 makes no difference; people are still going to want whatever they believe is &quot;best&quot; for their children. Now, what they believe to be &quot;best&quot; will change, just like styles of clothing, music, and every other transient element of culture. But some things just don't change, and one of them is people's concern for their children.

Whether or not our society adapts (in other words, comes to accept) genetic engineering as a part of life, people are still going to want their children to be the best they can be. This is exactly what leads to the rather drastic situation I proposed in my last post.

<<Ok, well that is nothing new.>>

Oh, I disagree. This is something entirely new. Now not only will these &quot;superior&quot; people be able to get a better education and a better job, they will be better looking, taller, stronger, faster, and generally more athletic than the &quot;inferior&quot; people.

<<As I said before rich parents can afford a better education then poor parents and give their kids an advantage in life. It is a fact that nearly 95% of Harvard students get a highly paid job after graduation. So why isn?t there a chaos of parents sending their kids to Harvard or other elite colleges?? Hey I would love to send my kids (if I had any) to Harvard, but I wouldn?t be able to afford it. As long we don?t live in a society like in StarTrek where there is no money and everything is for free, there will always be different social levels. Crossing these is never easy not even today.>>

This is not true for everyone. My parents didn't have much money, and I got a full academic scholarship to the University of Delaware because of my scholastic record, SAT scores, etc.. Please don't take that as bragging, just as an example that the amount of money one's parents have does not always equate with intelligence, the ability to get an education, or one's ability to get a good job.

You would be able to send your (hypothetical) children to Harvard if they could get a scholarship, whether academic or athletic. But the fact of the matter is that when you factor genetic engineering into it, the &quot;inferior&quot; people I described before wouldn't have intelligence or athletics as a recourse to get themselves a better education or a better job because their parents couldn't afford enough genetic engineering before they were born.

<<You also concentrate on enhancements all the time, healing diseases is priority number one, so anything cosmetical is science fiction at the moment.>>

You don't seem to understand the crux of my point: once you find a way to cure genetic diseases (some of which are quite complicated), you will be well on your way to changing a person's cosmetic properties. When you get down to it, changing genes that control eye color, hair color, musclar coordination, is not that much more complex than curing genetic diseases. These cosmetic changes are of greater importance to a lot of people than curing genetic diseases, considering that most families do not have a history of deadly diseases, but do have a history of lower intelligence, weaker muscles, etc.. Therefore I predict there will more of a demand for genetic engineering of cosmetic changes than of diseases.

And plus, how do you that there isn't someone or some corporation out there right now looking for ways to modify these cosmetic properties?

Alright, I'm off to eat dinner!!

Nick

edit: spelling and other &quot;cosmetic&quot; changes.

 

[AppleTalking]

<<To AppleTalking and all other people who are against this:
Are your reasons for NOT wanting to have this operation based on moral/religious objections or scientific ones?>>

Both. If you want to know about my religious beliefs, I believe that God has a purpose for creating each one of us the way we are. There is a reason for everything that happens, even though we may understand very little of it. In short, there is order in the chaos. I do not believe that God would want us to tamper with unborn children. Again, there is a reason each of us are given the physical and mental characteristics and capabilities that we are, even if that is beyond our knowledge or our comprehension.

As for the scientific aspect of things, I don't believe that this is an appropriate road to be heading down. Read my post above on this page for a hypothetical situation of what would happen as genetic engineering progresses. We'd wind up with a kind of slavery if things continue the way they appear to be.

Bottom line: there are some things that humans are just not meant to tamper with. Why do you think the gene pool is the way it is? Just so we can screw around with it?? Or maybe because it's the best possible combination there is? I tend to believe the latter.

Nick

 

[AppleTalking]

You can't stop progresss. A society without progress is dead.

Elledan: Don't get me wrong. I am not one of these ultra-conservatives who believe that all progress is evil. Progress can be very good. But progress is this area of science is not.

Nick

 

[rc5]

Uhh, you can imagine the size of penis every guy has after tweaking that a few generations.

 

[Wedesdo]

<< Again, there is a reason each of us are given the physical and mental characteristics and capabilities that we are, even if that is beyond our knowledge or our comprehension >>


interesting to know that you all-wonderful god sees a perfect reason to give unborn children diseases that will condemn them to die after 2-8 years (heart valve problems, etc.).

 

[MrNiceGuy86]

&quot;Uhh, you can imagine the size of penis every guy has after tweaking that a few generations.&quot;

hehe if people knew about this earlier, i would be taller

 

[AppleTalking]

interesting to know that you all-wonderful god sees a perfect reason to give unborn children diseases that will condemn them to die after 2-8 years (heart valve problems, etc.).

It is interesting to me that your reply suggests that you did not read my post fully.

I really didn't want this to turn into a religious thread, but oh well.

This is another one of those &quot;why do bad things happen to good people?&quot; questions. I have no answer to this question, other than that I believe (as I said before) that everything is done according to God's Plan. I will not even hazard a guess as to why things like this happen, as any guess I would make would almost certainly be wrong. I do not know why God does the things He does.

I don't think it's possible for anyone to be able to comprehend these kinds of things really. I don't think we were meant to understand. That's the whole point of faith. If you have faith, you know that God is working in your life and in the lives of the people around you. If you have faith, you believe that whatever happens is God's Will. The minute you begin to doubt whether what happens to you is really the Will of God, you have begun to lose your faith.

But, please, let's not turn this thread into a religious debate. Let's discuss genetic engineering on its merits alone, and not based on my religious beliefs.

Cheers!
Nick

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

This really sickens me.
What I'm getting from reading all the posts is that a vast majority of you would NOT love your child if he/she was not prefect. WTF?
I hope and pray that the time never comes when this is a reality. It scares the hell out of me to think what will become of the human race as we know it. In fact, a lot of what 'we' do today (IMHO) is over stepping the boundaries.