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Would WWII era engineers be able to replicate a modern assualt rifle of today

J

jtvang125

Diamond Member
Let's take for example the current military's M4. If someone was able to time travel and took back a working, loaded M4 and gave it to the US military, would the engineers of that time be able to make a working copy? If so, would they be able to afford making them in mass quantities so that they can be issued to most of the infantry deployed during the war?

I think they should be able to make a working copy just fine but don't think they can make them fast enough to bring down the economies of scale to make them cost effective. Maybe at the end of the war this might be possible though.

 
Yeah...don't forget how much brainpower was behind the war effort.

The P-51 went from an idea on paper to production in months. Now days it takes years, even decades for designs to be approved and go through testing, etc.

The AK-47 was created in 1947, only a few years after the war. The Wehrmacht already had "assault" rifles not vastly different from today.

I'd guess they could have them churned M4 copies by the tens of thousands in under a month. Setting up the tooling would be the longest part.
 
They could probably figure out how it works. However, lack of knowledge of metallurgy and modern manufacturing processes, I doubt they could mass produce them.

 
I dont see why not. Nothing in the basic weapon design is made of unknown technologies. AND I have long considered what it would be like to take a modern M1 Abrams back to WW2. That tank would have alot of ideas that could be applied to existing tanks, but the composite materials and explosive armor could not be replicated without extensive technology transfer, training, research and investment in large scale production facilities. By then the war might otherwise end on its own. HOWEVER by the time these hurdles are overcome it might make a big difference in the cold war, perhaps even Veitnam.
 
Originally posted by: RoloMather
WWII? Sure.

US civil war? Probably not.
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Yeah. Civil War would be a lot different.

But in WWII, you had car makers building tanks, sewing machine and piano companies building machineguns, etc. They made guns by the millions over a few years.
 
I would think a WWII engineering firm could easily figure it out and handle it. Don't know that they'd be very efficient at it but I'm confident it could be done
 
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
I dont see why not. Nothing in the basic weapon design is made of unknown technologies. AND I have long considered what it would be like to take a modern M1 Abrams back to WW2. That tank would have alot of ideas that could be applied to existing tanks, but the composite materials and explosive armor could not be replicated without extensive technololy transfer, training, research and investment in large scale production facilities. By then the war might otherwise end on its own. HOWEVER by the time these hurdles are overcome it might make a big difference in the cold war, perhaps even Veitnam.
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Topic has been done 😛
 
I don't see why in the world not. They're not complicated. There were much more complicated firearms used at the time. If they can figure out how to put a machine gun on a prop plane an assault rifle would be nothing.
 
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
I dont see why not. Nothing in the basic weapon design is made of unknown technologies. AND I have long considered what it would be like to take a modern M1 Abrams back to WW2. That tank would have alot of ideas that could be applied to existing tanks, but the composite materials and explosive armor could not be replicated without extensive technology transfer, training, research and investment in large scale production facilities. By then the war might otherwise end on its own. HOWEVER by the time these hurdles are overcome it might make a big difference in the cold war, perhaps even Veitnam.
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Tanks were pretty useless in Vietnam.
 
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
I dont see why not. Nothing in the basic weapon design is made of unknown technologies. AND I have long considered what it would be like to take a modern M1 Abrams back to WW2. That tank would have alot of ideas that could be applied to existing tanks, but the composite materials and explosive armor could not be replicated without extensive technology transfer, training, research and investment in large scale production facilities. By then the war might otherwise end on its own. HOWEVER by the time these hurdles are overcome it might make a big difference in the cold war, perhaps even Veitnam.
Click to expand...

Tanks were pretty useless in Vietnam.
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That is true, but the materials and technology in the Abrams would certainly lead to advancements in other weapons systems that might have made a difference there. But I cant say for sure because I haven't put alot of thought into it.

Are you certain it wouldn't have helped at all?
 
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Yeah...don't forget how much brainpower was behind the war effort.

The P-51 went from an idea on paper to production in months. Now days it takes years, even decades for designs to be approved and go through testing, etc.

The AK-47 was created in 1947, only a few years after the war. The Wehrmacht already had "assault" rifles not vastly different from today.

I'd guess they could have them churned M4 copies by the tens of thousands in under a month. Setting up the tooling would be the longest part.
Click to expand...

This.
 
Originally posted by: jtvang125
Let's take for example the current military's M4. If someone was able to time travel and took back a working, loaded M4 and gave it to the US military, would the engineers of that time be able to make a working copy? If so, would they be able to afford making them in mass quantities so that they can be issued to most of the infantry deployed during the war?

I think they should be able to make a working copy just fine but don't think they can make them fast enough to bring down the economies of scale to make them cost effective. Maybe at the end of the war this might be possible though.
Click to expand...

What kind of question is that? Of course they would. Guns are fairly simple devices that don't require exotic machinery to make. It's easier to make guns than it is to build watches. With guns the tolerances don't need to be as tight and the cuts can be rougher.

If you ever see the machine work for some guns built in the mid-late 1800's you'd be impressed by the fit and finish. Some sliding parts appear to be one piece of metal until you move them.

I think a lot of people, especially the kids of today, underestimate the skill possessed by people long ago. But if you step back and admire the jewelry, sculptures, and devices made long ago you'd see that they actually had quite a bit of skill and capability. If you've ever been to a machine shop, you'd know that there a few basic metalworking machines that are universal, such as lathes, milling machines, and drill presses. These machines were invented hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. For instance, the Greeks were able to make this thing more than 2,000 years ago. It's a mechanical computer used to calculate astronomical positions. Here's an X-ray of it.

Lots of things were made differently back then because they didn't know how to make them any other way, not because they didn't have the technology to produce them. When you develop greater technology, you can simplify things and make them cheaper and faster.



 
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
They could probably figure out how it works. However, lack of knowledge of metallurgy and modern manufacturing processes, I doubt they could mass produce them.
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The Germans managed to produce about half a million STG 44s. I have little doubt the US would have had much trouble cloning the M4 in quantity using the available materials.
 
Not if they don't have access to the machinery or materials needed to make it. Don't we use different ammunition now as well?
A gun is a fairly low target though, try something like a tank or plane, both of which the 'modern' knowledge needed to make something resembling a current machine was just coming about. I guess if you gave them a modern tank or plane, they could replicate it minus whatever new materials and electronics are used.
 
They built an atom bomb. I'm pretty sure they could have built an assault rifle *but* they didn't think that light fast bullets and burst fire was a good design back then. As said above, the wehrmact had to go and prove it before anyone adopted them.
 
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
I dont see why not. Nothing in the basic weapon design is made of unknown technologies. AND I have long considered what it would be like to take a modern M1 Abrams back to WW2. That tank would have alot of ideas that could be applied to existing tanks, but the composite materials and explosive armor could not be replicated without extensive technology transfer, training, research and investment in large scale production facilities. By then the war might otherwise end on its own. HOWEVER by the time these hurdles are overcome it might make a big difference in the cold war, perhaps even Veitnam.
Click to expand...

Tanks were pretty useless in Vietnam.
Click to expand...

That is true, but the materials and technology in the Abrams would certainly lead to advancements in other weapons systems that might have made a difference there. But I cant say for sure because I haven't put alot of thought into it.

Are you certain it wouldn't have helped at all?
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I'm pretty certain. Land armor and artillery technology were not in any way our downfall or a problem for us in 'Nam.
 
The better question is, if I gave engineers of today a plasma rifle from 2025, would they be able to replicate it?
 
Oh yeah. They definitely could. There was a lot more hands on then regarding having to know how everything works from the metals and alloys to the individual parts. Now engineers tend to specialize,so that projects get spread over several departments without any one engineer knowing everything needed to assemble it. If they could come up with a working radio made from razor blades, a pencil , and some wire I think they could replicate just about anything .
 
Originally posted by: Crono
The better question is, if I gave engineers of today a plasma rifle from 2025, would they be able to replicate it?
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Does it have to be in the 40 watt range?
 
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
I dont see why not. Nothing in the basic weapon design is made of unknown technologies. AND I have long considered what it would be like to take a modern M1 Abrams back to WW2. That tank would have alot of ideas that could be applied to existing tanks, but the composite materials and explosive armor could not be replicated without extensive technology transfer, training, research and investment in large scale production facilities. By then the war might otherwise end on its own. HOWEVER by the time these hurdles are overcome it might make a big difference in the cold war, perhaps even Veitnam.
Click to expand...

Tanks were pretty useless in Vietnam.
Click to expand...

That is true, but the materials and technology in the Abrams would certainly lead to advancements in other weapons systems that might have made a difference there. But I cant say for sure because I haven't put alot of thought into it.

Are you certain it wouldn't have helped at all?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty certain. Land armor and artillery technology were not in any way our downfall or a problem for us in 'Nam.
Click to expand...

Yup, all armor was useful for was cities/highways in the south. But an Abrams would have done no better than anything else.
 
The one thing they wouldn't have been able to do would be to exactly replicate their construction with advanced polymers and alloys. So it'd probably end up being a fair bit heavier than a modern M4. But it could certainly be done.
 
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