kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
- 31,586
- 48,163
- 136
I didn't mean to imply anyone is fine with innocent civilians being killed (I've made my stance pretty clear on Isrealis being blown up by Palestinaians here) just that I find it impossible that Bush's policies and history in office wouldn't be brought up somehow to justify it. Particulary in the Middle East. Hell, the Saudis said as much days after 9/11, and that was BEFORE we launched an unjust, pre-emptive war. Now add to it Bush's almost zombie like support of Israel. Now add how hypocritical we look, spouting off about freedom and liberty, all the while torturing Iraqis and bombing Afghan weddings.
I just don't see us getting close to the sympathy we had directly after 9/11. Hell, even the Iranians were lighting candles for us.
I just don't see us getting close to the sympathy we had directly after 9/11. Hell, even the Iranians were lighting candles for us.
Well, all of Europe would help you out that is for sure, no matter what you think, no matter how irrelevant you think we are, we are here, and if you need us we will help.
I signed up before and i will do so again, we are with the people of the US, perhaps not with the leadership but we are with the people.
That is the sentiment around here, we don't hate Americans or the US, we despise a corrupt US leadership which told us we were wrong and since then THEY have been proven wrong, do we get an apology? nope, do they admit they are wrong? nope.
I can sum it all up in one word for you: pathetic.
BS! You would have the support of Germany and France without asking for it, but could you let them in?
it's funny how you guys blame bush on future terrorist attacks. If I'm not mistaken, the terrorists hated us BEFORE he ever took office, hence the 93 world trade center bombing, 1998 us embassy bombings and 2000 uss cole bombing, and sept 11th. Obviously, if another attack occured, it would be Bush's fault for pissing them off. NEWS FLASH: They hated our guts before and they hate our guts now. Bush has nothing to do w/ it
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
ntdz - if Bush were to be blamed for a future attack it would be because his administration was seen as culpable in not preventing an attack, despite millions of dollars spent (billions if you count military efforts), and numerous sacrificed freedoms in the name of security.
Wow, if somebody EVER missed the point of thread it has to be you.
You have alienated former allies that is what this thread is about.
viivo
Diamond Member
- May 4, 2002
- 3,345
- 32
- 91
I agree blaming Bush for attacks is pure idiocy. Unless someone can provide proof that he ordered the attack in question, the blame is on those who carried it out.
However, I do believe the Iraq situation, combined with his inaction concerning the Israel/Palestine problem, has inspired more people to take up an anti-American cause than at any other time in history. Yes, many hated the US long before Bush came into office, but the war has added fuel to the fire and pushed a large amount of people toward extremism. While any actions that may result from that are their fault, the blame for what is in my opinion an unnecessary war is soley on Bush.
Oh BS yourself!! I don't know any Frenchmen so I can't address that, but I do know many Germans and to the man they are all mad at Bush for jumping the gun on starting the war with Iraq. I wouldn't count on too much if any support from them. At least not if Bush is still in office.
lol, i alienated allies? Maybe Bush has in your estimation, but France was never much of an ally anyway, they have always resented us and undermined our efforts.
i was simply responding to people's comments that it would be Bush's fault if a terrorist attack happened or that Bush's policies have somehow created new ones
i was simply responding to people's comments that it would be Bush's fault if a terrorist attack happened or that Bush's policies have somehow created new ones
Stunt
Diamond Member
- Jul 17, 2002
- 9,717
- 2
- 0
Using Isreal and Palestine as an example...
Could you make the arguement that more terrorist acts by palestinians are due to increased pressure by the isrealis?
I would definately say yes. Bush is very much hated and doesn't have a good repuation with even the developed world. I would say there is an increased chance of terrorism with an aggressive administration. Iraq took away from the true objective, terrorism, should have invested that money into intelligence, and cutting terrorist funding.
Retaliation is something that is expected when being forceful for no reason. The middle east resents the pointless war and not needed finger pointing (axis of evil).
Bush has everyhting to do with it. Just so you know there are scales of hatred. One is anti american sentiment keeping americans out of their territory and being outspoken, the other is driving a plane into a building/suicide bombers.
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
- 126
Who gives a flying f**k about "sympathy" ? Not like your sympathy meant anything in practical terms. We don't need a freakin' Hallmark card, we need intelligence and diplomatic support first and foremost, and military support a distant concern. We've gotten more help in that regard from Pakistan than from France and Germany. And it's not just because of Iraq, NATO countries have supplied what, a couple thousand troops to Afghanistan over the last 3 years? France, Germany et al can't even handle something as relatively simple as supporting us by taking care of the peripheral problem areas like preventing another genocide in Africa so that we don't have to. Heaven help us if Hutus start hacking up Tutsis again, since if the U.S. doesn't do something then nothing will get done. We had to drag Europe kicking and screaming to take care of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, which was on their own continent. Since 9-11, while President Bush may not have acted as well as he should have in the diplomatic side of things, but it doesn't really matter. Europe has proved time and time again that the only real support they have to offer is diplomatic and that hasn't been forthcoming.
I AM a German citizen and i WAS in Afghanistan, so can it.
We will help if you ask us to. it is not US who pretend to be high and mighty.
It is people like you who have never seen combat that are the worst alienators, all sides hate your guts.
NO, the war on Iraq was based on stupidity and lies, we did not fall for the lies, but we are allies, believe it or not, i will fitht to my death to defend the alliance.
You can just sit comfortably in your sofa and watch.
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
- 126
Fine, how about a compromise. We agree to disagree on Iraq, you don't support us, we don't bug you about it. In return, you guys take some initiative and take care of flare-up spots like Rwanda without needing to be asked, prompted, cajoled, or bankrolled by the U.S. to do so. That lets us concentrate on Iraq and Afghanistan and you on "international" concerns. Sound reasonable?
We know it, we have heard it all before, you are the bestest, ok, deal with it.
DON'T come crawling to the UN as you have done, deal with it, all of it.
Regarding Kosovo, i was there, the US didn't do a helluvalot, the ground forces did a lot more (good and bad, i am not speaking for the ones who committed crimes, it did not happen while i was there) and are still there, not that you would look beyond your stupidity though and see what its real.
My only conclusion is that you have been drinking far too mush again.
Blow it out your but. Just because your german doesn't mean you speak for the whole country.
It is not me pretendeding to be high and might, it is my fearless leader GWB.
For your info, I was in Vietnam and have been shot at. Were you ever shot at?
I DIDN'T FALL FOR THE LIES EITHER YOU SMARTASS SO STFU.
As far as sitting on the couch goes, in 4 months yoiu have over 2000 posts. Thats almost 16 posts a day. It seems to me your the one sitting on your ass most of the time.
It is not me pretendeding to be high and might, it is my fearless leader GWB.
For your info, I was in Vietnam and have been shot at. Were you ever shot at?
I DIDN'T FALL FOR THE LIES EITHER YOU SMARTASS SO STFU.
As far as sitting on the couch goes, in 4 months yoiu have over 2000 posts. Thats almost 16 posts a day. It seems to me your the one sitting on your ass most of the time.
How about you take care of your own little war and deal with it?
How about you take your humanitarian actions where they count?
Rwanda would have been a worthy goal, the US and the French have been there but all fled.
Was Iraq the easy target and Rwanda the hard target?
Are you completly daft?
A UN mission is one thing, if i am ordered to Rwanda i will go, but MY country will not go in without support.
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
- 126
Then go screw yourselves, you aren't worth worrying about. Only pussies worry about whether they have international support before doing what's right like stopping genocide. You'd figure that Holocaust history would have taught you something, but I guess not. And as you point out, obviously our country is a screwup too since we sat on our ass while 800,000 people got butchered, but I have no problem calling my country out for its cowardice, at least we don't revel in it like you do hiding behind a UN fig leaf. I guess in your worldview that's preferable since we didn't have permission from a UN mission to go in under. Pathetic.
do you think that the UN is anything more than an international diplomatic play ground ware one country can try to gain power over another?
The UN has no power and no reason to exist but that the US intends to use it for it's own goals.
That we give the UN any place in Iraq or any of our wars is that we are showing a sign of international good will, not the other way around.
if germany started a war like the US did we?d re-conquer you so fast your heads would spin.
Those are mighty words for someone who has (i assume) never been in combat.
Only pussies like the US? You do realize that the US fled from Rwanda?
How about Sudan? Not a peep about Sudan, but at least you freed the people of Iraq?
It would be funny it it was not so sad.
You are indeed pathetc, there is a genocide going on in Sudan, an almost completed one in Rwanda, take THAT to the UN and get agreement or just invade Iraq under false pretences.
I wonder which nation is indeed pathetic, all arrows point in one direction. The GREAT, the ALMIGHTY, the BESTEST of the BEST has no intention of stopping anything, but invading Iraq, that was justified.
It was, i mean, do you want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud?
Pathetic indeed.
Obviously you have no idea, i still have freinds in Kosovo under the UN flag, dioplomacy about that?
The UN has the power the member states allowes it to have it was created for a purpose but the US has circumvented that purpose. If you read up on it you might understand, but i don't expect that from you anyway mr high and mighty.
Don't give the UN a place in Iraq, we won't show up.
That is the deal, your mess, you deal with it.
The rest of the world still continues to deal with the UN, even the UK, you are alone now.
When china/asia has all the productivity, what do we need from you anyway?
We are irrelevant you say, 120+ countries are irrelevant, ok, deal with that.
One thing you numbnuts don't seem to get is that the UN is ALL of us, you , me, everybody, if the UN fails so do you.
Except in this war with Iraq where the UN said "wait, lets see what they got" but the US said "they have stockpiles of WMD's and are ready to attack the US" Well, one was wrong and one was right.
But the UN still exists, it goes beyond wars and does a lot of good, you should check it out mr high and mighty. You might even find something worthy of your support in there.
We won't fight your wars for you, but if you have got something to give, we WILL make sure it comes in the hands that needs it the most.
I have spent my entire life fighting for equality and freedom and i will spend the rest of my life doing the same, this does not make me walthy but it's the least i can do after what i have done before that.
Except in this war with Iraq where the UN said "wait, lets see what they got" but the US said "they have stockpiles of WMD's and are ready to attack the US" Well, one was wrong and one was right.
But the UN still exists, it goes beyond wars and does a lot of good, you should check it out mr high and mighty. You might even find something worthy of your support in there.
We won't fight your wars for you, but if you have got something to give, we WILL make sure it comes in the hands that needs it the most.
I have spent my entire life fighting for equality and freedom and i will spend the rest of my life doing the same, this does not make me walthy but it's the least i can do after what i have done before that.
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