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Would the world be better off if someone proved God didn't exist?

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<< I personally do not believe it will ever happen, as I believe God does exist. But the discovery of truth is always a good thing... so IF non-existance of god = Truth, then yes, finding out would be a good thing.

It is always good to know the truth.

Now reverse the question - if God exists and now revealed himself to man without a doubt, would that be a good thing? How would people react?

Hmmmmm... >>




Regardless of which God appeared, how could it be bad? It seems to me that adjusting to a God that differs from the version you may have had in mind would be easier than adjusting to no God at all.
 


<< Regardless of which God appeared, how could it be bad? It seems to me that adjusting to a God that differs from the version you may have had in mind would be easier than adjusting to no God at all. >>



Not for those of us who do not believe in ANY god.
 


<<

<< Regardless of which God appeared, how could it be bad? It seems to me that adjusting to a God that differs from the version you may have had in mind would be easier than adjusting to no God at all. >>



Not for those of us who do not believe in ANY god. >>



Why?
 


<< What would be the consequences of living without the faith in a higher being?
Although there are many atrocities committed on a daily basis in the name of religion,
I believe the world is a better place with the idea that God exists.

Thoughts? >>



to answer the original question... i believe that the world would be a better place (than if we *knew* there was or wasn't a god) if people were mature and rational, regardless of religion.
 


<<

<<

<< Regardless of which God appeared, how could it be bad? It seems to me that adjusting to a God that differs from the version you may have had in mind would be easier than adjusting to no God at all. >>



Not for those of us who do not believe in ANY god. >>



Why? >>



because it would not require a change in beliefs.
 


<< But what if religious (intolerant) ideologies are merely part of the natural development of a civilization?

i think that's a good point, but i think that change has to come about a little more gradually than somebody just suddenly proving that god doesn't exist. we might get there eventually, but in the mean time, i believe people will find a substitute. >>


Sorry, but your reasoning is illogical.

First of all, one can not disprove the existance of any figment of the imagination. Everyone has to realize it for themselves.
This means that there won't be 'proof' against the existance of gods, just like there will never be proof against the existance of purple, man-eating demons which cause disaster, wars and illness.
As long as people want to believe in those fantasies, nothing can be done against it. They can only see how illogical their faith is by logic, but as long as they refuse to use logic to exame their faith, they will continue believing.

Combining this with the knowledge that one can not disprove the existance of gods, it becomes clear that once people will realize that gods do not exist, that they are but a figment of the imagination, they won't need another ideology to create a fantasy world for them.
 
It's funny.... many scientists are now realizing the amazing improbability of evolution (from oceanic gunk to human) and are leaning towards being seeded by aliens. Now since most of you also don't believe in aliens and UFOs and don't believe in God, what's left to believe? 😉
 


<< It's funny.... many scientists are now realizing the amazing improbability of evolution (from oceanic gunk to human) and are leaning towards being seeded by aliens. Now since most of you also don't believe in aliens and UFOs and don't believe in God, what's left to believe? 😉 >>


Funny, I just read a couple of articles which show an amazing progress in our understanding of the processes behind evolution 😉
 


<<

<< What would be the consequences of living without the faith in a higher being?
Although there are many atrocities committed on a daily basis in the name of religion,
I believe the world is a better place with the idea that God exists.

Thoughts? >>



to answer the original question... i believe that the world would be a better place (than if we *knew* there was or wasn't a god) if people were mature and rational, regardless of religion. >>



Do I hear John Lennon in the background? 🙂

I agree with you to a certain extent but I seriously doubt that, with or without a God, the world would ever be "mature and rational. "
 
Sorry, but your reasoning is illogical.
First of all, one can not disprove the existance of any figment of the imagination. Everyone has to realize it for themselves.
This means that there won't be 'proof' against the existance of gods, just like there will never be proof against the existance of purple, man-eating demons which cause disaster, wars and illness.
As long as people want to believe in those fantasies, nothing can be done against it. They can only see how illogical their faith is by logic, but as long as they refuse to use logic to exame their faith, they will continue believing.

i entered this discussion with the assumption that for the purposes of this thread, it is possible, albeit hypothetically.
 


<< to answer the original question... i believe that the world would be a better place (than if we *knew* there was or wasn't a god) if people were mature and rational, regardless of religion. >>



Do I hear John Lennon in the background? 🙂

I agree with you to a certain extent but I seriously doubt that, with or without a God, the world would ever be "mature and rational. "

bah, i dont' really like the beatles :Q

i think that given enough time it can happen, but whether our universe will implode first is a large question 😉
 


<< I didn't realize that the word God was strictly for Christian use. >>

It's not. Christians (and Muslims) are just too lazy to properly name their gods 😉


<< That's an interesting thesis you have. >>

Thanks 🙂


<< I rather doubt that most people have the "current knowlege" but I would be interested what that current knowlege is. >>

The current knowledge is the knowledge collected through scientific methods throughout the centuries.


<< Does the belief in God fade with religious ideologies? I know very few people who go to church or synagogue
yet their belief is quite strong. They're not living in caves or strapping bombs to their chests and walking into shopping malls.
They're very repectable citizens. >>

I know for a fact that here in The Netherlands the churches are getting emptier every day. There are even talks between some churches to merge in order to survive.


<< Thanks for the response. >>

You're most welcome 🙂
 
Why?

Whaddya mean why?

If we dont' believe in a god at all then there is no adjustment if he's proven unreal. We only would have to adjust if he was proven to exist.
 


<< i entered this discussion with the assumption that for the purposes of this thread, it is possible, albeit hypothetically. >>

I don't really have a problem with hypothetical situations, as long as they're even remotely possible.

However, in this case it's not. Even if, for example, a theory of everything has been developed, a theory which can be used to explain and predict every process on at least a quantumscale, there will still be people who will say that their god(s) exist because it/they can not be observed, only 'felt' or 'experienced'.
 


<< Trust me, if there was no threat of punishment in the afterlife, we'd see a far more immoral and violent society, its our nature. Religion (and the fear of God) keeps us in check. It's better this way. >>



I am not violent nor immoral....I believe in no higher power.....
 


<< Can you, without using metaphysical stuff, explain to us 'infidels' why you are convinced that gods exist, that this Christian god exists? >>


Well, you see, the great purple squirrel appeared to me and told me the following: "God exists, Elledan is an infidel, now gimme some nuts.". So then I crawled out of my hovel and came down the mountain to preach at everyone about what the squirrel said.

As I could see the squirrel and smell him, that is physical evidence - not metaphysical.



<< Can you also explain to us why only the Christian god exists and the other gods are either false or merely a 'synonym' or part of the Christian god? >>


Again, the squirrel told me so.



<< Furthermore, please explain why the gods mankind created before the Christian ideology and its god were 'misguided' and the Christian ideology is the only correct one. >>


Well, the squrrel pee'd on a statue of Zeus, so thats good enough for me.



<< I'm eager to hear your, non-metaphysical, answers on these questions. >>


Well there you go! I'm so glad I had a chance to share them with you, you raging infidel you (there, now I've actually called someone an infidel, so you don't need to feel bad about lying).

Oh one last thing, Elledan - as I keep saying, when you are willing and able to actually have a respectful, non-aggresive, and non-condescending conversation, we can talk. But until you grow up (a lot), I'm not going to waste much energy on you (other than to ammuse myself)

Feel free to now declare victory, say something witty, or move about the cabin.



<< A better question: what if the god of some small religion with hardly a thousand followers does exist and now reveals itself to man without a doubt, would that e a good thing? How would people react? >>



See answer to original thread question.



BTW, if anyone else wants to have a good, rational discussion, and isn't just taking smug, logically poor potshots - feel free to post questions. I'm sorry I don't feel like trying to talk to Elledan - maybe I'm just still sore over his thoughts on wiping people like my sister (she's handicapped) off the face of the earth or something. That or I grow tired of his inability to debate like an adult and avoid the use of insults, mockery, and condesension.
That or I'm just cranky. 😉

🙂
 
Elladan. My question about "current knowlege" was in relation to your studies in religion and how it is "fading."
I hope you're not basing your thesis on the woes of the churches in the Netherlands (I don't really believe you are). After the 9-11 tragedy,
people flocked to the churches here. They went to their God for solace. Figment or not they felt good about reaching out
to their God. Every church I drive by on Sunday has a full parking lot. Frankly I'm still on the fence when it comes to God.
I question many things that are "God's way." But the naysayers of the idea of God are missing the point. We read and
hear about the horrible things people do in the name of God but there are far more good things that happen because
people have faith. It's too easy to bring up examples of the bad things that happen because that is what is written about.
You rarely read about the good things unless some athlete thanks God for hitting a home run.


Good Luck in your studies. I'm actually quite interested in your findings.
 
linux:

She's doing great - so is baby. Baby gained a whole pound in the last 2 weeks... he's a little fatty! 😀

I think when things settle down Elita will be able to go on AT more... I only have time at work myself!
 


<<

<< Can you, without using metaphysical stuff, explain to us 'infidels' why you are convinced that gods exist, that this Christian god exists? >>


Well, you see, the great purple squirrel appeared to me and told me the following: "God exists, Elledan is an infidel, now gimme some nuts.". So then I crawled out of my hovel and came down the mountain to preach at everyone about what the squirrel said. >>

Can you show us this squirrel? Do you have a recording or anything?



<< As I could see the squirrel and smell him, that is physical evidence - not metaphysical. >>

You still have to show us proof that this squirrel exists, and then this squirrel must be found to be a reliable source.



<<

<< Can you also explain to us why only the Christian god exists and the other gods are either false or merely a 'synonym' or part of the Christian god? >>


Again, the squirrel told me so. >>


Again, show us this squirrel.



<<

<< Furthermore, please explain why the gods mankind created before the Christian ideology and its god were 'misguided' and the Christian ideology is the only correct one. >>


Well, the squrrel pee'd on a statue of Zeus, so thats good enough for me. >>


Not good enough to us.



<<

<< I'm eager to hear your, non-metaphysical, answers on these questions. >>


Well there you go! >>

Your sorry attempt failed miserably. I'm everything but amused.


<< I'm so glad I had a chance to share them with you, you raging infidel you (there, now I've actually called someone an infidel, so you don't need to feel bad about lying). >>

I'm not an atheist.



<< Oh one last thing, Elledan - as I keep saying, when you are willing and able to actually have a respectful, non-aggresive, and non-condescending conversation, we can talk. But until you grow up (a lot), I'm not going to waste much energy on you (other than to ammuse myself) >>


Actually, it's you who is incapable of holding a normal conversation, as the above example proves once more. Why don't you just answer those questions? If you find them unreasonable, please tell us why.



<< Feel free to now declare victory, say something witty, or move about the cabin.



<< A better question: what if the god of some small religion with hardly a thousand followers does exist and now reveals itself to man without a doubt, would that e a good thing? How would people react? >>



See answer to original thread question. >>

I wasn't talking to you.





<< BTW, if anyone else wants to have a good, rational discussion, and isn't just taking smug, logically poor potshots - feel free to post questions. I'm sorry I don't feel like trying to talk to Elledan - maybe I'm just still sore over his thoughts on wiping people like my sister (she's handicapped) off the face of the earth or something. >>

Right now I would like to call you something very ugly, but I'll refrain from doing so since it won't do any good.

I've NEVER seriously suggested that handicapped people should be 'wiped off the face of the earth'. The one time I said it, I had made an unforgivable mistake in my reasoning, so I corrected my posts, apologized and never made the same mistake again.

The fact that you keep reminding all of us of this event only shows how childish you are.


<< That or I grow tired of his inability to debate like an adult and avoid the use of insults, mockery, and condesension.
That or I'm just cranky. 😉 >>

You're done yet?
 
I don't really have a problem with hypothetical situations, as long as they're even remotely possible.
However, in this case it's not. Even if, for example, a theory of everything has been developed, a theory which can be used to explain and predict every process on at least a quantumscale, there will still be people who will say that their god(s) exist because it/they can not be observed, only 'felt' or 'experienced'.

to have a discussion about the effects of god being disproven, you have to make the assumption that he can be disproven.
 


<< Elladan. My question about "current knowlege" was in relation to your studies in religion and how it is "fading."
I hope you're not basing your thesis on the woes of the churches in the Netherlands (I don't really believe you are). >>

You're correct. I base my conclusions on observations done over the whole world and throughout history.


<< After the 9-11 tragedy,
people flocked to the churches here. They went to their God for solace. Figment or not they felt good about reaching out
to their God. >>

They were unable to cope with the situation, because they lacked insight. They felt desperate and therefore turned towards the only thing which (in their eyes) could offer some insight.


<< Every church I drive by on Sunday has a full parking lot. Frankly I'm still on the fence when it comes to God.
I question many things that are "God's way." >>

That's no more than logical. Religious ideologies are irrational, but it requires time and insight to realize this.


<< But the naysayers of the idea of God are missing the point. We read and
hear about the horrible things people do in the name of God but there are far more good things that happen because
people have faith. It's too easy to bring up examples of the bad things that happen because that is what is written about.
You rarely read about the good things unless some athlete thanks God for hitting a home run. >>

'good' and 'bad' are subjective terms, the label we give neutral events, depending on how we interpret them.




<< Good Luck in your studies. I'm actually quite interested in your findings. >>

Thanks 🙂
 


<< Morals and ethics are NOT the exclusive domain of the religious. I consider myself a moral man and it has nothing to do with some fear of retribution. If you really believe what you just said, you probably need to seek counseling to deal with the urges that you seem to be suppressing due to your fear of ultimate retribution... >>


---


<< People would come to realize that life is only what you make of it, they would want to keep their standards of living high, if not higher than before, and above all they would want to make something of themselves. Something that would last beyond death. >>


Good stuff. The world DOES look very different when you do not hold any creeds.


<< She's doing great - so is baby. >>


Did you ever name Baby? I must have missed that thread.
 


<< to have a discussion about the effects of god being disproven, you have to make the assumption that he can be disproven. >>


That are two impossibilities in one sentence. I refuse to let go of my logic in such a disgraceful manner.
 


<< I'm not an atheist. >>


I didn't say you were - you insinuated that I call non-religious people "infidels" - you even put it in quotes. Clever.
As I've never used the word, I did then so that at least you could be post-facto honest.



<< Actually, it's you who is incapable of holding a normal conversation, as the above example proves once more. Why don't you just answer those questions? If you find them unreasonable, please tell us why. >>


The questions are fine themselves - its your technique I have a problem with. Here's how it goes:

Topic is brought up
You ask me questions
I provide a response
You start with the name-calling, condescension, mocking, etc
I get pissed.

Forgive me if, unlike Charlie Brown, I don't keep running at the football.



<< I wasn't talking to you. >>



I wasn't talking to YOU.

Yes I was - you quoted something I said and posed a counter question. I replied.
(Sheesh, its like trying to debate with a child...)



<< I've NEVER seriously suggested that handicapped people should be 'wiped off the face of the earth'. The one time I said it, I had made an unforgivable mistake in my reasoning, so I corrected my posts, apologized and never made the same mistake again. >>



What??? So, you are definitely not wrong now, even though you were in the past?



<< You're done yet? >>


Naw - I have lots of free time. As long as I find you ammusing, I'll keep posting.
 
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