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Would calling Ford to bitch about my car serve any purpose?

F

Fausto

Elite Member
My Explorer hasn't even turned over 100k yet and I've had to replace the entire rear end, a whole bunch of work to the front suspension, etc, etc, etc. The only thing left to go is the transmission (and I'm sure that'll crap out shortly).

Suffice to say, I am really pissed off at how utterly unreliable this car has been. It's had all the recommended stuff done by the dealership and yet it seems to cost me at least a grand every time something goes wrong. I'm looking at close to $5k total in the last calendar year.

Should I call/write Ford? My gut says this is probably just pissing in the wind, but I'd like to redirect my displeasure in a semi-constuctive manner if possible.



Spare me the 'YOU SHOULDNA BOUGHT A FORD' comments please. Irrelevant at this point.
 
What year is your Explorer?

And I always recommend contacting the MFG on issues like this. Ford seems to be more PR concious than ever of late, so there's at least a shot that they'd at least give you a polite response.

A more detailed list than etc, etc, etc would also be helpful 🙂 For example "the only thing left to go is the transmission" might indicate that you're on a 2nd motor already?
 
I take it you have an older explorer that's just driven lower miles? Otherwise you should have some warranty still. Original Owner or bought used?
 
heymrdj said:
I take it you have an older explorer that's just driven lower miles? Otherwise you should have some warranty still. Original Owner or bought used?
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It's a 2002 with about 94k on the dial. I am the second owner. Orig owner was my Dad who is obsessive about maintaining his cars. It's been in the SE the entire time (ie- not driven in salt and slush).
 
Arkaign said:
What year is your Explorer?

And I always recommend contacting the MFG on issues like this. Ford seems to be more PR concious than ever of late, so there's at least a shot that they'd at least give you a polite response.

A more detailed list than etc, etc, etc would also be helpful 🙂 For example "the only thing left to go is the transmission" might indicate that you're on a 2nd motor already?
Click to expand...
No, the motor is fine (for now anyway). All the problems have been further down the drivetrain.

Off the top of my head; everything from the wheel bearings up to the rear diff (currently in shop for the !$%!$% rear diff), shifter solenoids, lower ball joints up front, and a few other suspension items whose precise names currently escape me (as I have said earlier, I'm not cartarded, but my depth of knowledge is not vast by any means).

I dug through explorerforums and it looks like there was a TSB for the rear diff at the very least and it seems the problems I'm having are pretty common for this model year.
 
Go for it, couldn't hurt any. Enough LS owners bitched about the coil-on-plugs' propensity to fail in the earlier year models. Ford finally caved and has a TSB out for all years up to 100K, free replacements.
 
Are you taking it to the same dealer? The one your dad bought it from, and has all of his vehicles serviced at?

Seriously I can't tell you how often I see families who are getting royally screwed by their "trusted dealer mechanic friend"

To me, with the way QC is nowadays, it's pretty rare to find a post 2000 year car that is truly a lemon after 40k miles or so. Sometimes the first year is a pain with lots of niggling things, but once they're worked out you should fine.


IMO there's nothing wrong with that year explorer, they really aren't known to be unreliable or anything like that.. Perhaps the interior could be better or whatever, but from a mechanical perspective they're solid vehicles.
 
SpatiallyAware said:
Are you taking it to the same dealer? The one your dad bought it from, and has all of his vehicles serviced at?

Seriously I can't tell you how often I see families who are getting royally screwed by their "trusted dealer mechanic friend"

To me, with the way QC is nowadays, it's pretty rare to find a post 2000 year car that is truly a lemon after 40k miles or so. Sometimes the first year is a pain with lots of niggling things, but once they're worked out you should fine.


IMO there's nothing wrong with that year explorer, they really aren't known to be unreliable or anything like that.. Perhaps the interior could be better or whatever, but from a mechanical perspective they're solid vehicles.
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As I said, everything south of the trans has failed as of today. I'm seriously considering getting rid of it before anything else crops up.
 
Fausto said:
As I said, everything south of the trans has failed as of today. I'm seriously considering getting rid of it before anything else crops up.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I get that they told you this, it's part of what sounds so odd to me. You likely have an open diff, which is a VERY rare thing to have fail. Even if you have an LSD, the rear ends from that era explorer are fairly durable and not known for failure. It might not be a bad idea to tell us in detail what you've paid to have fixed.


Often times it starts as some simple front suspension problem and the dealer can't figure out exactly what it is - so they charge you to throw parts at it until it's fixed. Maybe you needed new balljoints, but they had you replace wheel bearings and everything else trying to fix it. Meanwhile you think your car is falling apart.

Same with the rear-end and trans deal. Maybe it's the center carrier bearing or something simple, and they think you'll pay out on anything and they get a new trans/rear end out of you.



I'm not saying you're an idiot or did anything wrong - just that you have a common story that happens to many people.. and often times it's a bad mechanic messing with them. Dealers are REALLY bad about screwing people who don't question repairs and just pay for whatever your service writer recommends.
 
Fausto said:
As I said, everything south of the trans has failed as of today. I'm seriously considering getting rid of it before anything else crops up.
Click to expand...

Remember not to mention any of that stuff in the ad you put on craigslist. Saying "replaced the engine, trans, diff, bearings, shocks, struts, brakes, rotors, etc" gives the impression that the car is a lemon.
^_^
 
SpatiallyAware said:
Yeah, I get that they told you this, it's part of what sounds so odd to me. You likely have an open diff, which is a VERY rare thing to have fail. Even if you have an LSD, the rear ends from that era explorer are fairly durable and not known for failure. It might not be a bad idea to tell us in detail what you've paid to have fixed.


Often times it starts as some simple front suspension problem and the dealer can't figure out exactly what it is - so they charge you to throw parts at it until it's fixed. Maybe you needed new balljoints, but they had you replace wheel bearings and everything else trying to fix it. Meanwhile you think your car is falling apart.

Same with the rear-end and trans deal. Maybe it's the center carrier bearing or something simple, and they think you'll pay out on anything and they get a new trans/rear end out of you.



I'm not saying you're an idiot or did anything wrong - just that you have a common story that happens to many people.. and often times it's a bad mechanic messing with them. Dealers are REALLY bad about screwing people who don't question repairs and just pay for whatever your service writer recommends.
Click to expand...
You certainly have a point, but in most of these cases I could feel or see the issue with the car. Right now, the roaring noise that comes and goes with off/on throttle and some google-fu tells me it's something with the rear diff.

BTW- explorerforum.com is freaking great for self-diagnosis of these things. They have been right 90% of the time to where I'm at least armed with some knowledge when I enter the dealership. The problem is that all the shit going on with my car just happens to be really expensive and not things within my comfort zone to attempt to fix.
 
Sorry, but I have to say that I no longer trust dealership "mechanics" any more than anyone else. It had been mentioned to me that my Jeep's trouble could be pinpointed with a special diagnostics tool that only dealer mechanics had access to. I took it in, and they pinpointed the error to the same device I replaced for $30 myself, at a cost of over $350.

No more than a night later, the same error returned. I brought it back in, a bit miffed for wasting my time with the last $100 diagnostic (that doubled before I even gave the ok to fix it) and they suggested it was the ECM (which my trusty mechanic had already suggested as a hunch). They then tried to charge about $1000 to fix that.

Ended up paying my mechanic $300 and haven't really had any trouble since.

Long story short, forget about dealer mechanics. They don't know any better than anyone else. The reality is, their mechanics are making hourly wages and a bulk of the expense is sitting in the dealership owner's pocket. The mechanics have very little stock in making the company look good. They're just collecting a paycheck and hoping to do enough not to get in trouble.

Take it to a trustworthy mechanic who values his customers. They do exist. I take mine to Lantz Brothers in Omaha. I actually call every 6 months or so when something crops up that I am not comfortable dealing with, and they know me and I know them. Their name is associated to their business, and it shows in their work, IMO.

I have probably written this a time or two on these forums, but I truly have nothing but disgust anymore for dealership mechanics. Never again will I visit a dealer mechanic unless a warranty is involved.
 
Just to be clear; this is not an issue with the dealership. All the stuff they have fixed to this point was indeed broken. My issue is that the amount (and cost) of things crapping out on my car is far beyond what should be reasonable for anything but a Yugo.
 
Fausto said:
Just to be clear; this is not an issue with the dealership. All the stuff they have fixed to this point was indeed broken. My issue is that the amount (and cost) of things crapping out on my car is far beyond what should be reasonable for anything but a Yugo.
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I disagree, in my opinion based just on what you've told us it's more likely that your dealer is screwing up compared to the likelihood of having this many problems - all drivetrain/rear end related, in such a short period of time. Possible?... Sure... but unlikely.

Same with the cost.. Your dealer is probably screwing you compared to what you'd pay for a decent regular mechanic.



$5k in one year means there's probably more to it than just 'fords are unreliable'.
 
SpatiallyAware said:
I disagree, in my opinion based just on what you've told us it's more likely that your dealer is screwing up compared to the likelihood of having this many problems - all drivetrain/rear end related, in such a short period of time. Possible?... Sure... but unlikely.

Same with the cost.. Your dealer is probably screwing you compared to what you'd pay for a decent regular mechanic.



$5k in one year means there's probably more to it than just 'fords are unreliable'.
Click to expand...

I almost replied with something like this. Especially after my $30 part fiasco. I can understand paying a premium, but they tried to get $350 for a what was literally a sub 30 minute part swap. And when you tell me the diagnostic fee is $99 and then call me and say my bill is already at $199, what point would it serve in having my mechanic fix the problem for $150.

I know this isn't all dealer mechanics, but the general consensus, from my POV, is that a dealer mechanic shop consists of about 9 "mechanics" making $13 an hour, and 1 "master" mechanic who probably makes a bit better of a wage. Which means, 9 out of 10 times, your car is getting fixed by someone who is no more qualified than the guy who changes oil at walmart. I am surely exaggerating here, but I don't really feel like I am that far off.
 
Getting a newer vehicle might be a satisfying conclusion to the story for you. Ford and especially GM had many years of basically sub-par vehicles going out the door, and 2002 was part of that era. It seems like ~2005ish they began to starkly improve things year-on-year, and now I recommend Ford or GM just as easily as Honda or Toyota, depending on model of course.

It could easily be worse though, I've known folks who have had both motor and AWD tranny failures on Audis from ~95-'05 era, and THAT is expensive, holy crap.
 
mvbighead said:
Sorry, but I have to say that I no longer trust dealership "mechanics" any more than anyone else. It had been mentioned to me that my Jeep's trouble could be pinpointed with a special diagnostics tool that only dealer mechanics had access to. I took it in, and they pinpointed the error to the same device I replaced for $30 myself, at a cost of over $350.

No more than a night later, the same error returned. I brought it back in, a bit miffed for wasting my time with the last $100 diagnostic (that doubled before I even gave the ok to fix it) and they suggested it was the ECM (which my trusty mechanic had already suggested as a hunch). They then tried to charge about $1000 to fix that.

Ended up paying my mechanic $300 and haven't really had any trouble since.

Long story short, forget about dealer mechanics. They don't know any better than anyone else. The reality is, their mechanics are making hourly wages and a bulk of the expense is sitting in the dealership owner's pocket. The mechanics have very little stock in making the company look good. They're just collecting a paycheck and hoping to do enough not to get in trouble.

Take it to a trustworthy mechanic who values his customers. They do exist. I take mine to Lantz Brothers in Omaha. I actually call every 6 months or so when something crops up that I am not comfortable dealing with, and they know me and I know them. Their name is associated to their business, and it shows in their work, IMO.

I have probably written this a time or two on these forums, but I truly have nothing but disgust anymore for dealership mechanics. Never again will I visit a dealer mechanic unless a warranty is involved.
Click to expand...

Having worked for a dealership I take a little offense to this. Nothing personal to you. People have bad experiences at dealers and it sticks with them. It is not fair to lump everyone in the same boat. Sure I didn't make an awesome wage but my name was on everything I touched that went out the door and I made sure I would be fine taking it down the road. I worked hard, got ASE certified and did dealer certifications. When I spoke with a customer I was honest on what I thought needed fixing now and what I felt would need to be addressed in the future. If I could save them money I did. Same with my service advisors. Sorry this is a little off topic but someone needs to speak up for the real technicians out there.

Now Fausto, if you really want to do something here is what I recommend. I would make copies of all of the service records you can find. If you have brought it to the same place for all its life, politely ask them to dig them up for you. Chances are they are in the computer. Do some homework and come up with a polite letter to Ford explaining your displeasure and show them evidence of the maintenance you had performed on your vehicle. If you have to evidence or maintenance you don't have much for an argument. They will tell you you should have maintained your vehicle better without proof of doing so. Now show them numbers on how much you have spent over the years trying to repair their vehicle. State, in a nice way, that you will probably never buy a Ford product again and neither will anyone you can get the word to. Estimate you keep x amount of people from buying their vehicles and do the math. Show how much it would cost them with profit from the vehicle, maintenance and repairs. You should be able to figure that out from cost of ownership estimates for their vehicles. Send it to someone higher up. You can usually tinker around enough on company websites to find an email. Thats how I would go about it.
 
SabaII said:
Having worked for a dealership I take a little offense to this. Nothing personal to you. People have bad experiences at dealers and it sticks with them. It is not fair to lump everyone in the same boat. Sure I didn't make an awesome wage but my name was on everything I touched that went out the door and I made sure I would be fine taking it down the road. I worked hard, got ASE certified and did dealer certifications. When I spoke with a customer I was honest on what I thought needed fixing now and what I felt would need to be addressed in the future. If I could save them money I did. Same with my service advisors. Sorry this is a little off topic but someone needs to speak up for the real technicians out there.

Now Fausto, if you really want to do something here is what I recommend. I would make copies of all of the service records you can find. If you have brought it to the same place for all its life, politely ask them to dig them up for you. Chances are they are in the computer. Do some homework and come up with a polite letter to Ford explaining your displeasure and show them evidence of the maintenance you had performed on your vehicle. If you have to evidence or maintenance you don't have much for an argument. They will tell you you should have maintained your vehicle better without proof of doing so. Now show them numbers on how much you have spent over the years trying to repair their vehicle. State, in a nice way, that you will probably never buy a Ford product again and neither will anyone you can get the word to. Estimate you keep x amount of people from buying their vehicles and do the math. Show how much it would cost them with profit from the vehicle, maintenance and repairs. You should be able to figure that out from cost of ownership estimates for their vehicles. Send it to someone higher up. You can usually tinker around enough on company websites to find an email. Thats how I would go about it.
Click to expand...

My general point is this... my mechanics, Rick and Roger Lantz, own their own business. The odds of them getting a better offer and working somewhere else is slim to none, as they'd most likely have to sell their business to find a better offer. The work they do brings customers to their business. It matters very much to them that their business is profitable, because if it isn't, they'd end up closing their doors and working for a paycheck elsewhere.

Point is, they are not simply collecting a paycheck. They are running a business. In any instance of an individual collecting a paycheck, you'll find folks that do care, and ones that don't. And that can surely happen with mechanics as well. But as with anything, you find good ones, and you stick with them. In the realm of dealer mechanics, chances are you'll deal with different mechanics over a 5-10 year period. Me, I'll still be talking to the same guys who run their own business. I've been taking cars to my guys for over 10 years, and that was based on feedback from my uncle.

That is not to say that all dealer mechanics suck, but simply that finding a trustworthy guy and being able to stick with him is far less likely than with a family owned shop.
 
SabaII said:
Having worked for a dealership I take a little offense to this. Nothing personal to you. People have bad experiences at dealers and it sticks with them. It is not fair to lump everyone in the same boat. Sure I didn't make an awesome wage but my name was on everything I touched that went out the door and I made sure I would be fine taking it down the road. I worked hard, got ASE certified and did dealer certifications. When I spoke with a customer I was honest on what I thought needed fixing now and what I felt would need to be addressed in the future. If I could save them money I did. Same with my service advisors. Sorry this is a little off topic but someone needs to speak up for the real technicians out there.

Now Fausto, if you really want to do something here is what I recommend. I would make copies of all of the service records you can find. If you have brought it to the same place for all its life, politely ask them to dig them up for you. Chances are they are in the computer. Do some homework and come up with a polite letter to Ford explaining your displeasure and show them evidence of the maintenance you had performed on your vehicle. If you have to evidence or maintenance you don't have much for an argument. They will tell you you should have maintained your vehicle better without proof of doing so. Now show them numbers on how much you have spent over the years trying to repair their vehicle. State, in a nice way, that you will probably never buy a Ford product again and neither will anyone you can get the word to. Estimate you keep x amount of people from buying their vehicles and do the math. Show how much it would cost them with profit from the vehicle, maintenance and repairs. You should be able to figure that out from cost of ownership estimates for their vehicles. Send it to someone higher up. You can usually tinker around enough on company websites to find an email. Thats how I would go about it.
Click to expand...
Thanks, this is my likely course of action now that I'm on the other side of rage.
 
mvbighead said:
My general point is this... my mechanics, Rick and Roger Lantz, own their own business. The odds of them getting a better offer and working somewhere else is slim to none, as they'd most likely have to sell their business to find a better offer. The work they do brings customers to their business. It matters very much to them that their business is profitable, because if it isn't, they'd end up closing their doors and working for a paycheck elsewhere.

Point is, they are not simply collecting a paycheck. They are running a business. In any instance of an individual collecting a paycheck, you'll find folks that do care, and ones that don't. And that can surely happen with mechanics as well. But as with anything, you find good ones, and you stick with them. In the realm of dealer mechanics, chances are you'll deal with different mechanics over a 5-10 year period. Me, I'll still be talking to the same guys who run their own business. I've been taking cars to my guys for over 10 years, and that was based on feedback from my uncle.

That is not to say that all dealer mechanics suck, but simply that finding a trustworthy guy and being able to stick with him is far less likely than with a family owned shop.
Click to expand...
Again, I'm not saying you don't have a point, but I'm fairly certain all the repairs that have been performed were valid.

My car was all over the place; replace wheel bearings, much better.

Still a bit wiggly; take another look, replace part of the rear suspension assembly that had worn. Wiggles all gone.

Car dives slightly to one side when I abruptly let off throttle at highway speed; fix lower ball joints, car drives fine now.

...and so forth. In each case it was something tangible that I could see and feel after the repair was performed. I know I'm paying a premium to have a dealership work on my car, but I really don't feel like they are being deceitful. I just think I got a chunk of shit with a Ford badge on it.
 
mvbighead said:
My general point is this... my mechanics, Rick and Roger Lantz, own their own business. The odds of them getting a better offer and working somewhere else is slim to none, as they'd most likely have to sell their business to find a better offer. The work they do brings customers to their business. It matters very much to them that their business is profitable, because if it isn't, they'd end up closing their doors and working for a paycheck elsewhere.

Point is, they are not simply collecting a paycheck. They are running a business. In any instance of an individual collecting a paycheck, you'll find folks that do care, and ones that don't. And that can surely happen with mechanics as well. But as with anything, you find good ones, and you stick with them. In the realm of dealer mechanics, chances are you'll deal with different mechanics over a 5-10 year period. Me, I'll still be talking to the same guys who run their own business. I've been taking cars to my guys for over 10 years, and that was based on feedback from my uncle.

That is not to say that all dealer mechanics suck, but simply that finding a trustworthy guy and being able to stick with him is far less likely than with a family owned shop.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup: Better way to put it. Thanks.
 
Not to say that it isn't frustrating to spend money on cars, but honestly it's not a big surprise you've had to replace parts. Ball joints, bearings, tie rods, shocks, bushings etc. are all moving parts that wear incrementally with every mile you travel, it's unfortunate that none of those parts have lasted more than 100k miles, but it isn't uncommon for any of these parts to need replacing, I've had to replace all the parts you mention except for the diff on a Chevy with similar miles, and it had a transmission rebuild on top of all the other problems. I finally decided that my vehicle had reached its expiration date and got rid of it. So what did I do, I sold it and bought a Toyota that had just as many problems, and just as expensive to repair at about the same miles, I sold that and now I've got another Chevy with around 100k miles and guess what, it needs new ball joints, tie rods, shocks, bearings, etc. The only way to avoid replacing items that wear out is to buy a car when wear is minimal and sell it before the wear becomes noticeable, regardless of brand that basically means you have to buy new and sell when the warranty expires.
 
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