Worth watching 5 minute video on Saul Alinsky (who?)

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Republican con men like Newt Gingrich love to have 'attack labels' and 'demos' to use as ammunition in their diatribes.

Jeremiah Wright! Jane Fonda! Bill Ayres! Now, a new name as the secret leader of the left in the US has merged, who most on the left have not heard of, Saul Alinsky.

But it sure sounds good in a speech against Obama, making him sound like some communist with a little red book in his pocket following his communist leader blindly.

It's good enough to get a lot of votes.

Gingrich has worked the name Saul Alinsky into major speeches this election, contrasting him when discussing wht basic values of America with Republican values.

The people who should most watch the following Bill Moyers video are the victims of the Republican propaganda who fall for this stuff - learn how you are lied to.

Curious Democrats and those interested in US history would benefit as well.

It's probably too much to ask as usual, but watching the video and having comments informed by doing so is preferable to the knee-jerk team mantra parroting.

http://billmoyers.com/segment/bill-moyers-essay-the-real-saul-alinsky/
 

Perknose

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From the transcript:

Get this: the one-time Republican Majority Leader in the House of Representatives, Dick Armey, whose FreedomWorks organization helps bankroll the Tea Party, gives copies of Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals to Tea Party leaders. Watch out, brother, you could be next on Newt’s list. Although curiously, in his fight against wealthy Mitt Romney, Gingrich himself has stolen a page from Alinsky's populist playbook.

SAUL ALINSKY: Now power’s always gone into two areas: those who have money and those who have people. We have nothing but people.


NEWT GINGRICH: Now we’re going to have people power defeat money power in the next six months.


BILL MOYERS: Alinsky died suddenly in 1972. At the time he was planning to mount a campaign to organize white middle-class Americans into a national movement for progressive change. Maybe that’s why Newt Gingrich has been slandering Alinsky’s name. Maybe he’s afraid. Afraid the very white folks he’s been rousing to a frenzy will discover who Saul Alinsky really was. A patriot, in a long line of patriots, who scorned the malignant narcisism of duplicitous politicians and taught every day Americans to think for themselves and to fight together for a better life. That's the American way, and any good historian would know it.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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It's funny, there are 123 mentions of Saul Alinsky in this forum before this thread, and it's a high profile talking point of Newt Gingrich, but little interest in the facts.

That's how these propaganda things seem to work - all the people need is to hear the name mentioned with Obama and they're happy to accept the message.

Propaganda is about reinforcing existing opinions pretty much, and this does that.
 

monovillage

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Jul 3, 2008
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I've known about Alinsky for decades. Political manipulation at it's finest. Didn't he originally coin the phrase "never let a crisis go to waste" ? That Emanuel used later?
 

Perknose

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I've known about Alinsky for decades. Political manipulation at it's finest. Didn't he originally coin the phrase "never let a crisis go to waste" ? That Emanuel used later?

Really? WHAT have you known about him, for decades? Specifically, what did he do, how, and when, that has given you such a negative view of him? Provide us with a documented link or two.

I ask, because in the absence of any specifics of something bad he actually DID, you seem to best fit the profile of the ignorant, partisan haters of him Bill Moyers references:

The crowd knows nothing except that they're supposed to hate him.

And please, asking a question about a phrase he may or may not have said which, out of context, has zero definable evil meaning just won't do.

Do better. Be specific.
 

monovillage

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Jul 3, 2008
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Should I have just said I was familiar with his name, his reputation as the liberal sun tse of political tactics? His leftist ideology? Kind of like a political ideas gunslinger.
I asked because I thought it was his quote that had been used by Rahm, but in a short google session didn't find it. Way too touchy there Perk.
 

Perknose

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Should I have just said I was familiar with his name, his reputation as the liberal sun tse of political tactics? His leftist ideology? Kind of like a political ideas gunslinger.
I asked because I thought it was his quote that had been used by Rahm, but in a short google session didn't find it. Way too touchy there Perk.

So, do you admit that when you say, "I've known about Alinsky for decades," you really don't know one factual thing about him except for what others, committed partisan opponents, have told you to think about him?

Sadly, this really does seem all too close to what Bill Moyers said:

The crowd knows nothing except that they're supposed to hate him.
Now, you may wish to protest that you don't hate him, but when you choose to airily dismiss and demean him as, "Kind of like a political ideas gunslinger" based not one whit on anything you know he's done or said, well . . . :(

For instance, you confidently speak of "His leftist ideology" without offering up even one example of same, even when directly challenged to!

That's also kind of sad.

Here is a little about and from the man you would so easily brand and pigeon hole based, I can only guess, on what someone else has told you to think:

Alinsky did not join political parties. When asked during an interview whether he ever considered becoming a Communist party member, he replied:

"Not at any time. I've never joined any organization—not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide.[4]"
It seems, until you show better evidence otherwise, that you yourself might have let, in Saul Alinsky's words above, a "rigid dogma or ideology" leave you blind, "doctrinaire [...] and intellectually constipated." ;)

Saul Alinsky was explicitly not a socialist or a communist. He was an American who strongly and passionately believed in "We the people."

Maybe, if you take off your narrow partisan blinders and find out about the man, this great and true blue American, you could come to the same conclusion that that even Richard J. Daley eventually did:

By 1950 he turned his attention to the African American ghettos of Chicago, where his actions would later earn him the hatred of Mayor Richard J. Daley, although Daley would later say that "Alinsky loves Chicago the same as I do."[4]
And maybe not. You won't know unless you try.
 

monovillage

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Jul 3, 2008
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I said I've know about Alinsky for decades. It was accurate, I have known about him for decades.
Damn, you aren't kidding. You think I have to be that informed about someone to have an opinion about them? Sorry, I think that Alinsky was a leftist political tactician and as such was a political enemy. The best thing about him is that tactics are a two edged sword that can be wielded by either side in a dispute.
You seem to think that if I learn more about Alinsky i'll come to have more respect for him, I think as I learn more about him I'll hate him even more and for cause. We'll see.
btw i'm not too fond of Moyers either.
 

Perknose

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I think as I learn more about him I'll hate him even more and for cause. We'll see.

You HATE Saul Alinsky? Wow. Again, from Bill Moyers:
The crowd knows nothing except that they're supposed to hate him.


btw i'm not too fond of Moyers either.

Care to share why, or do you also presently have no specific and factual basis for this opinion of yours?
 

monovillage

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You HATE Saul Alinsky? Wow. Again, from Bill Moyers:

Care to share why, or do you also presently have no specific and factual basis for this opinion of yours?

Moyers is another Democrat journalist that can usually be depended on to slant any story in a favorable way for left leaning Democrats. He's a typical PBS type journalist (read government funded) that takes public funds and gives biased returns.

This in itself is not that big a deal, what makes it worse, at least to me, are the left leaning, liberal Democrat supporters that get offended when they hear criticism of one of their pocket journalists.

Is he biased in every single story he's ever done? of course not, but if you can't see his political trend, you just aren't looking.

*edit* Just an update, i'm still reading more about Alinsky. I'm not avoiding a post.
 
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monovillage

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Jul 3, 2008
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You HATE Saul Alinsky? Wow. Again, from Bill Moyers:

Care to share why, or do you also presently have no specific and factual basis for this opinion of yours?

After reading more about him, he's an asshole. Plain and simple. He did much more to damage this country then the small things he did to help it. It might not be specific or factual enough for you, but it is for me. It's just not in my self interest to really spend more time on Alinsky.

The life of man upon earth is a warfare...
--Job 7:1

THAT PERENNIAL QUESTION, "Does the end justify the means?" is meaningless as it stands; the real and only question regarding the ethics of means and ends is, and always has been, "Does this particular end justify this particular means?"
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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Well, I have learned it is best to not like anyone who is praised by he who created this thread. Worked when he used to express his love for Hugo Chavez.

Saul Alinksy is the type of person who is a God to anyone who truly believes Republicans are evil. I do not share that view.

One of Alinsky's basic tactics is to enact change through annoying and pissing off anyone and everyone you can. I do not approve.

How has the politics of division worked out for us?
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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While some used Alinsky's teachings for good, many others learned that to obtain wealth and other goods, they don't have to be a productive member of society, all they have to do is piss off others into submission. And that does not make for a good society.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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Although the more interesting thing here, is what Perknose's deep interests in this matter are :p
 

Perknose

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Although the more interesting thing here, is what Perknose's deep interests in this matter are :p

Saul Alinsky was an arguably great American who stood up, without violence or obscuringly heavy ideology, for the little guy -- We, the people -- his entire life.

The ignorantly blind HATE for him espoused by some here disgusts me.

Here is some more about who Mr. Saul Alinsky was:

For his part, Alinsky, who died in 1972, never had much patience for elected officials: Change would not come from top-down leadership, but rather from pressure from below. In his view, politicians took the path of least resistance. Among his targets were the Obamas of his day, from alderman to mayors to senators, for as he wrote in his 1971 bestseller, “Rules for Radicals”: “No politician can sit on a hot issue if you make it hot enough.” It’s easy to imagine Alinsky as an advocate for “change we can believe in,” directing the unemployed and the victims of mortgage foreclosures to put pressure on the erstwhile community organizer now in the White House.


Whatever his influence on Obama, Alinsky had a complicated relationship to the political left. In the 1930s, Alinsky had little patience for the bona fide socialists and card-carrying Communists who were prominent advocates of labor and civil rights. He repudiated Marxism then. By the 1960s — his moment of greatest influence — Alinsky was even harsher in his criticism of the New Left. He viewed activists in Students for a Democratic Society as naive and impractical and denounced the tactics of their erstwhile comrades on the militant fringe, like the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground as doomed to failure for their violent tactics and unwillingness to compromise. Alinsky loathed dogmatism of all varieties.


But Alinsky also had little patience for mainstream liberals and European social democrats. He argued that the technocratic style of government by experts and bureaucrats was out of touch with “the people.” Before it became fashionable, he argued for citizen participation in politics and the devolution of power downward, away from Washington and into the hands of ordinary citizens. Though he was a secular Jew, Alinsky forged his closest alliance with Catholic advocates of social justice, whose views at the time could not be described in the easy binary of left versus right. If any political view appealed to Alinsky, it was the Catholic doctrine of “subsidiarity,” namely leaving governance to the smallest possible unit: the community. Alinsky counted among his closest friends the Catholic theologian Jacques Maritain (whose doctrine of personalism was one of the strongest influences on the young Polish cleric Karol Wojtyla, later Pope John Paul II).


Through it all, Alinsky called himself a radical. And he was. Alinsky drew from a deep current of indigenous radicalism in American politics, one that ran from Tom Paine (who was Alinsky’s favorite founding father), through the incipient labor movement (early in his career, Alinsky worked with the Congress of Industrial Organizations), and the civil rights struggle in the 1960s.


In the truest sense of the term, Alinsky was a populist, who sided with those whom he called “the Have-Nots, and the Have-a-Little, Want Mores.” Alinsky’s small-d democracy shaped his strategy. He argued that leaders had to start by listening to ordinary people, not directing them from the top down. In Chicago, Alinsky launched organizing efforts among the ethnic workers in Chicago’s meatpacking plants, whose plight had been made infamous by Upton Sinclair’s “Jungle.” In the early 1960s, he launched a campaign to improve the quality of life for the black residents of Chicago’s Woodlawn neighborhood whose housing stock had been gutted by absentee landlords and whose jobs had disappeared because of the corporate search for cheap labor and high profits. And just before his death, he called for a campaign to tap the disaffected lower middle class and turn their anger away from minorities and toward “specific issues — taxes, jobs, consumer problems, pollution — and from there move on to the larger issues: pollution in the Pentagon and the Congress and the board rooms of the megacorporations.”


Alinsky believed that the key to organizing success was citizen participation, letting the people set the agenda, not setting it for them. Alinsky’s goal was nothing short of unleashing the power of the people to “create mass organizations to seize power and give it to the people; to realize the democratic dream of equality, justice, peace, cooperation, equal and full opportunities for education, full and useful employment, health, and the creation of those circumstances in which men have the chance to live by the values that give meaning to life.”
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Saul Alinsky was an arguably great American who stood up, without violence or obscuringly heavy ideology, for the little guy -- We, the people -- his entire life.

The ignorantly blind HATE for him espoused by some here disgusts me.
Well said!!!:thumbsup:

He was also born to Russian Jewish parents.....
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Republican con men like Newt Gingrich love to have 'attack labels' and 'demos' to use as ammunition in their diatribes. -- thats true....

Jeremiah Wright! Jane Fonda! Bill Ayres! Now, a new name as the secret leader of the left in the US has merged, who most on the left have not heard of, Saul Alinsky.-- I would not even put Saul in with the likes of Jane Finda or Bill Ayres or Jeremiah Wright!! Saul stands on his own merits and IMO none of the previously mentioned hold a candle to this guy!!

But it sure sounds good in a speech against Obama, making him sound like some communist with a little red book in his pocket following his communist leader blindly. -- not really it makes those using the name Sail Alinsky appear as if they have no clue......everything Saul stood for is diametrically opposed to what the present Republican party stands for....

It's good enough to get a lot of votes. -- you sure??

Gingrich has worked the name Saul Alinsky into major speeches this election, contrasting him when discussing wht basic values of America with Republican values. -- the problem is when you contrast somebody to somebody and that somebody does not stand for what your party stands for you look like a bafoon!!

The people who should most watch the following Bill Moyers video are the victims of the Republican propaganda who fall for this stuff - learn how you are lied to.

Curious Democrats and those interested in US history would benefit as well.

It's probably too much to ask as usual, but watching the video and having comments informed by doing so is preferable to the knee-jerk team mantra parroting.

http://billmoyers.com/segment/bill-m...-saul-alinsky/

Maybe you do get it after all.....Peace!!
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Rightwing hatred of Alinsky reveals their authoritarian nature. He was profoundly anti-authoritarian in much the same way that the Founders of this country were.

Government should be the servant of the people, all the people, not just those with the money & connections trying to have it all their way.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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It's funny, there are 123 mentions of Saul Alinsky in this forum before this thread, and it's a high profile talking point of Newt Gingrich, but little interest in the facts.
-snip-

It seems you're disappointed the 'other side' isn't participating here.

Well, I don't have audio on my PC, so I rarely if ever comment in video oriented threads. I.e., I don't participate where I can't hear the content.

But I think if one is interested in Alinsky it's best just to read at least one of his books and then form their own opinion.

Fern
 
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PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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Let's take a look at some of Alinsky's thoughts:

THE IDEOLOGY OF CHANGE

Now we know where that came from.

This raises the question: what, if any, is my ideology? What kind of
ideology, if any, can an organizer have who is working in and for a
free society? The prerequisite for an ideology is possession of a basic
truth. For example, a Marxist begins with his prime truth that all
evils are caused by the exploitation of the proletariat by the
capitalists.

An organizer working in and for an open society is in an ideological
dilemma. To begin with, he does not have a fixed truth—truth to him
is relative and changing; everything to him is relative and changing.
He is a politcal {sic} relativist.

I believe that man is about to learn that the most practical life is the
moral life and that the moral life is the only road to survival. He is
beginning to learn that he will either share part of his material wealth
or lose all of it; that he will respect and learn to live with other
political ideologies if he wants civilization to go on. This is the kind
of argument that man's actual experience equips him to understand
and accept. This is the low road to morality. There is no other.

Summary of the pages above this quote... revolution against the upper-class is the only answer.

The third rule of the ethics of means and ends is that in war the end
justifies almost any means.

Glad so many of our leftist forum members believe this. It's obvious in practice already.

The tenth rule of the ethics of means and ends is that you do what
you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments

Another common sight.

The eleventh rule of the ethics of means and ends is that goals must
be phrased in general terms like "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity," "Of
the Common Welfare," "Pursuit of Happiness," or "Bread and
Peace." Whitman put it: "The goal once named cannot be
countermanded." It has been previously noted that the wise man of
action knows that frequently in the stream of action of means
towards ends, whole new and unexpected ends are among the major
results of the action.

This one phrasing puts into words exactly the strategy the left uses on a daily basis. Wonder why Occupy simply insists on a broad "goal" of "fairness"?
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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The job of the organizer is to maneuver and bait the establishment so that it will publicly attack him as a "dangerous enemy." The word
"enemy" is sufficient to put the organizer on the side of the people, to
identify him with the Have-Nots, but it is not enough to endow him
with the special qualities that induce fear and thus give him the
means to establish his own power against the establishment. Here
again we find that it is power and fear that are essential to the
development of faith. This need is met by the establishment's use of
the brand "dangerous," for in that one word the establishment reveals
its fear of the organizer, its fear that he represents a threat to its
omnipotence. Now the organizer has his "birth certificate" and can
begin.

Irony

Read the rest of Rules for Radicals to get a stunning insight into the mind of both Occupy, and no doubt Obama and the many people he grew up being mentored by.
 

shadow9d9

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Jul 6, 2004
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I said I've know about Alinsky for decades. It was accurate, I have known about him for decades.
Damn, you aren't kidding. You think I have to be that informed about someone to have an opinion about them? Sorry, I think that Alinsky was a leftist political tactician and as such was a political enemy. The best thing about him is that tactics are a two edged sword that can be wielded by either side in a dispute.
You seem to think that if I learn more about Alinsky i'll come to have more respect for him, I think as I learn more about him I'll hate him even more and for cause. We'll see.
btw i'm not too fond of Moyers either.

"You think I have to be that informed about someone to have an opinion about them?"

Yes, that would be the logical and intelligent way of things.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
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After reading more about him, he's an asshole. Plain and simple. He did much more to damage this country then the small things he did to help it. It might not be specific or factual enough for you, but it is for me. It's just not in my self interest to really spend more time on Alinsky.

The life of man upon earth is a warfare...
--Job 7:1

Great, then you should have absolutely no problem giving specifics!