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Worth waiting for dx11 cards?
- Thread starter vj8usa
- Start date
brblx
Diamond Member
...when is vbulletin coming? jesus this is ridiculous.
anyway, the only benefit from dx11 cards might be price drops. and at current levels, i don't even think that's assured.
we've yet to really even see much utilization of dx10. i would bet it'll be a couple years before there's any real reason to have a dx11 card.
anyway, the only benefit from dx11 cards might be price drops. and at current levels, i don't even think that's assured.
we've yet to really even see much utilization of dx10. i would bet it'll be a couple years before there's any real reason to have a dx11 card.
imported_Scoop
Senior member
I would rather say it's not worth it to pick up anything right now. I would wait with that card, like I'm waiting with my HD 3850. You think you could manage another six months?
DaveSimmons
Elite Member
Not for DX11 itself. The only reason to wait is if the current cards in your price range aren't enough of an upgrade to be worth it/
For example I have a 4870 512MB from last July that's still working well for the games I'm playing so there's no point in getting a 4890 despite the crazy low prices on it.
For example I have a 4870 512MB from last July that's still working well for the games I'm playing so there's no point in getting a 4890 despite the crazy low prices on it.
There really is no way of telling at this point.
We don't know exactly when DX11 cards will be available... We won't know how fast they will be, and we don't know how well they will perform.
So we neither know how long to wait, or what we're waiting for exactly.
We can only hope that the first DX11 cards are as successful as the first DX9 (Radeon 9700) and DX10 (GeForce 8800) were. Those were absolute killer cards, which completely redefined performance and image quality standards, even in existing titles (DX8 respectively DX9).
All I can say is... if you can wait, then wait. If you want a new videocard today, I wouldn't get one that is too expensive. A 4870 or a GTX260 is not that expensive, and gives you a great performance boost over what you have today.
So even if DX11 cards will arrive soon, and if they will be much faster than what we have today, you won't regret your purchase too much.
I'm still waiting at this point.
We don't know exactly when DX11 cards will be available... We won't know how fast they will be, and we don't know how well they will perform.
So we neither know how long to wait, or what we're waiting for exactly.
We can only hope that the first DX11 cards are as successful as the first DX9 (Radeon 9700) and DX10 (GeForce 8800) were. Those were absolute killer cards, which completely redefined performance and image quality standards, even in existing titles (DX8 respectively DX9).
All I can say is... if you can wait, then wait. If you want a new videocard today, I wouldn't get one that is too expensive. A 4870 or a GTX260 is not that expensive, and gives you a great performance boost over what you have today.
So even if DX11 cards will arrive soon, and if they will be much faster than what we have today, you won't regret your purchase too much.
I'm still waiting at this point.
Numerous deals to be had these days for example
eVGA GTX 275 - 264.99
World at War (COD5) -49.99
Cryostasis from eVGA -39.99
Mail in rebate -20.00
3D Mark Vantage Professional -19.99
savings of 129.97 --difficult to pass up even though my old 8800 GT could have held me over til the next gen cards came out especially on a Samsung 22 LCD 1650 X 1050.
eVGA GTX 275 - 264.99
World at War (COD5) -49.99
Cryostasis from eVGA -39.99
Mail in rebate -20.00
3D Mark Vantage Professional -19.99
savings of 129.97 --difficult to pass up even though my old 8800 GT could have held me over til the next gen cards came out especially on a Samsung 22 LCD 1650 X 1050.
DaveSimmons
Elite Member
^ those 2 games and benchmark app aren't really $110 in savings though, more like $30-40 if you happen to want them. For example download version of Cryostasis has been as low as $10.
Hot Deals forum has a bunch of deal on ATI cards which are currently a much better value unless you just can't stand ATI for some odd reason.
Hot Deals forum has a bunch of deal on ATI cards which are currently a much better value unless you just can't stand ATI for some odd reason.
I agree with your savings statement as some of the games have previously been on sale and benchmark app well I have multiple codes and have gifted them to my friends.
I have no problems with ATI cards and I will be looking at the Evergreen GFX card when it comes out this fall.
It's just a great time to be a PC gamer.
kalrith
Diamond Member
I'm in the same boat with my 2900 Pro. I think I'm going to wait it out. I'll have to see how my video card handles Oblivion at 1920x1200 on my new monitor. If it does the job, then I'll stick it out. If not, then I might reconsider. My purchase would definitely be the 4890 at $151 after bing cashback on ewiz right now.
akugami
Diamond Member
All indications are it won't be out until Q4'09 and it could be deep into Q4'09 before we see any cards launch. With the manufacturing problems of TSMC who makes the GPU chips for both nVidia and ATI, availability is also questionable and thus cards could be pricey on top of being unavailable.
I doubt there will be a true top down performance launch on DX11 when it comes out. Likely it'll start at the $250'ish and up mark before dropping down to the 150'ish to 200'ish range, though you'll probably be able to find a rebate or two to drop it into the 200'ish range after a few months.
Obviously no one knows what the future brings and we could have a fantastic launch from both ATI and nVidia with plenty of cards available from the mid-range to upper ranges. But I wouldn't bet on it. DX11 cards will also take years before they get widely adopted and most games programmed for DX11 are almost guaranteed to work with DX10.
So DX11 cards will take roughly 5+ months to come out, pricing and availability is questionable due to a problem with manufacturing, any game that uses DX11 is almost guaranteed to work with DX10, games programmed specifically for DX11 will also take until late 2010 to come out at the earliest. Sorry but get what you need now and upgrade when the second gen DX11 cards come out.
I doubt there will be a true top down performance launch on DX11 when it comes out. Likely it'll start at the $250'ish and up mark before dropping down to the 150'ish to 200'ish range, though you'll probably be able to find a rebate or two to drop it into the 200'ish range after a few months.
Obviously no one knows what the future brings and we could have a fantastic launch from both ATI and nVidia with plenty of cards available from the mid-range to upper ranges. But I wouldn't bet on it. DX11 cards will also take years before they get widely adopted and most games programmed for DX11 are almost guaranteed to work with DX10.
So DX11 cards will take roughly 5+ months to come out, pricing and availability is questionable due to a problem with manufacturing, any game that uses DX11 is almost guaranteed to work with DX10, games programmed specifically for DX11 will also take until late 2010 to come out at the earliest. Sorry but get what you need now and upgrade when the second gen DX11 cards come out.
It would be more likely that the DX11 cards are coming within 3-5 months.. not 5+ months. First reason being the launch date of Windows 7, they are going to want to have their chips out at around the same time. Second being that ATI already has a working card which it showed off at Computex, and Nvidia supposedly has theirs taped out also. There's also Nvidia's showing at Computex in partner with Microsoft showing off the GPGPU capabilities of Windows 7, which further solidifies the idea that they will want to launch the new cards around the same time as Windows 7, as it's a great marketing choice.
You say buy a new card now, and then buy the new one when it comes out. Well what if he saved the money from buying a card now and added it to the money he'd be spending in only a few months time? He could buy the best performing card of the series.
It's not hard to last a few months. And yes, DX11 is backwards compatible with DX10 hardware, also DX9 hardware. DX9/10 hardware still can't use the new features of DX11, so I don't see where you were going with that point. If a developer used DX11 in there game, they would obviously utilize some of the new features in it. But it is going to take some time before there are a lot of quality DX11 games out, although ATI is saying that there's already a huge lineup, but well see.
akugami
Diamond Member
Having cards out and having them out in numbers are two different things. Case in point, the Radeon 4770. Too lazy to check exact cards but ATI and nVidia have "released" cards in the past but in such limited supplies that you can't really find them.
ATI's DX11 demo at Computex 2009 was more in line with a tech demo. There was no working video card to my knowledge and was most likely a simulation of what to expect. There was a silicon wafer of the new ATI GPU's but AFAIK, no working video card. If you have info to the contrary please link.
Win7 is coming out in late October. It's June now. At the earliest, I don't expect ATI to be coming out with a card before October, even if it's early October. Combined with TSMC's troubles, ATI may be able to reach their target of being available with Win7 but that doesn't mean there won't be supply issues. A new GPU design usually comes out on the high end first as well, meaning there is usually high cost and low value. It's the second gen (the refresh) that is usually where the better value is. Not to mention most kinks are worked out in the new design.
[/quote]You say buy a new card now, and then buy the new one when it comes out. Well what if he saved the money from buying a card now and added it to the money he'd be spending in only a few months time? He could buy the best performing card of the series.[/quote]
Please re-read what I wrote. My suggestion was to buy a card now and this is the important part "upgrade when the second gen DX11 cards come out." I didn't suggest he buy the new cards coming out in Q4'09, I suggested he buy a card now, and there are some pretty darned good deals to be had, and this should more than be enough for the next one to two years and worry about upgrading again when the second generation of DX11 cards come out. The OP is not a frequent upgrader. My suggestion seems like a good idea to maximize enjoyment now instead of waiting a long time to upgrade to a possibly expensive and hard to find product in 5 months.
[/quote]It's not hard to last a few months. And yes, DX11 is backwards compatible with DX10 hardware, also DX9 hardware. DX9/10 hardware still can't use the new features of DX11, so I don't see where you were going with that point. If a developer used DX11 in there game, they would obviously utilize some of the new features in it. But it is going to take some time before there are a lot of quality DX11 games out, although ATI is saying that there's already a huge lineup, but well see.[/quote]
There was a huge jump in terms of differences between DX9 and DX10. There is less of a jump between DX10 and DX11. Don't get me wrong, there are still some pretty major changes but at the same time there are more similarities than differences. DX11 is basically a superset of DX10.
As far as my point and where I was going with that. You pretty much answered your own question. It's going to take time for DX11 games to show up and any game optimized for DX11 can easily be optimized for DX10 since they're practically the same thing.
I'd like to add a few small comments.
Firstly, although TSMC is (was?) a big partner with AMD and nVidia, it's not the only game in town. nVidia has already said that they had moved some of their production to UMC.
TSMC has problems with their 40 nm process, but we've not heard of any problems with UMC, so perhaps nVidia and AMD will have 40 nm parts out in volume soon anyway, through UMC.
Secondly, DirectX 11 is not a Windows 7-only API. It also works on Vista. So if AMD or nVidia have DX11 hardware ready before the Windows 7 launch, there's no need to wait.
In fact, even if DX11 isn't out yet by that time, it wouldn't be the first time that hardware is released before the actual new DX API is out.
Heck, I am hoping they'll release DX11 drivers soon, even for their DX10 hardware, because I'm getting tired of running DX11 mostly with software emulation.
Not that I'm saying that there will be DX11 hardware out before the launch of Windows 7... It's just that I thought a few possibilities were left uncovered so far, in the discussion.
Firstly, although TSMC is (was?) a big partner with AMD and nVidia, it's not the only game in town. nVidia has already said that they had moved some of their production to UMC.
TSMC has problems with their 40 nm process, but we've not heard of any problems with UMC, so perhaps nVidia and AMD will have 40 nm parts out in volume soon anyway, through UMC.
Secondly, DirectX 11 is not a Windows 7-only API. It also works on Vista. So if AMD or nVidia have DX11 hardware ready before the Windows 7 launch, there's no need to wait.
In fact, even if DX11 isn't out yet by that time, it wouldn't be the first time that hardware is released before the actual new DX API is out.
Heck, I am hoping they'll release DX11 drivers soon, even for their DX10 hardware, because I'm getting tired of running DX11 mostly with software emulation.
Not that I'm saying that there will be DX11 hardware out before the launch of Windows 7... It's just that I thought a few possibilities were left uncovered so far, in the discussion.
That's a matter of perspective.
The API stays mostly the same. However, nVidia has mentioned that they're going from a SIMD architecture to a MIMD architecture.
That choice has little to do with the API, since DX11 could run fine on a SIMD architecture aswell. But it may give the next nVidia chip completely different performance characteristics (which aren't DX11-specific either, you'll see the same when running DX10 or DX9 games on the hardware).
So DX11 being a superset of DX10 doesn't necessarily mean that the underlying hardware stays the same.
Just like how DX9 software can run on DX10 hardware aswell, which is quite different from DX9 hardware, and usually more efficient.
They specifically state it's running on the first DX11 chip. And obviously the chip needs to be attached to a test card to run.
http://www.amd.com/us/press-re...s_first-2009jun03.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eTngR6M37Q
I wasn't talking about optimizing the game for DX10 or 11, I was talking about the optimizations DX11 itself introduces.
Read this article:
http://blogs.amd.com/play/2009...ited-about-directx-11/
Are you talking about software or hardware here?
Software-wise, DX11 itself doesn't change a whole lot. I think a more significant change is the WDDM 1.1 driver model in Windows 7, which is more efficient than the WDDM 1.0 model in Vista. But this driver model is not specific to DX11, in fact, both nVidia and AMD already have WDDM 1.1 WHQL drivers out for their current DX10 hardware, which boosts performance in some cases by reducing driver overhead.
Hardware-wise, DX11 will allow you to use even more advanced shaders, but whether or not that is feasible depends on how fast the actual hardware is.
Eg, the branching instructions that were added to DX9 at some point, they were theoretically interesting, but the actual hardware was very inefficient, so they weren't used much in practice.
Same thing with the geometry shaders introduced in DX10. An interesting concept, but the hardware is so slow at running them, that it doesn't make sense to use them. It's often faster to just use a bruteforce approach.
We can't really tell what DX11 hardware will bring at this point, as we neither have the hardware nor the software to draw any conclusions about performance and feasibility.
All I can say is that it's likely that DX11 hardware will take another step in performance, especially on nVidia's side, since this is going to be their first major architecture change in years. But, it's certainly no guarantee... both nVidia and AMD have had new architectures that couldn't deliver on their promises in the past.
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