World War 2, a what if thread

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985
germany could have NEVER gotten over to america.

hell, they couldnt even cross the friggin english channel...let alone the atlantic. i hate it when people say "we would all be speaking german..." thats such BS.

They had U-boats just off our shore... they even dropped off spies in New York (Long Island I think) with U-Boats. If we didn't help the British, particularly with our Navy, there's no doubt the Germans would have defeated them, and there's little doubt they would have made it here.

HA. do you know what they had to "cross" the english channel?? barges TOWED by tugboats. yeah, great plan. dropping off spies VIA u-boat is a hell of a lot different that a full fledged invasion army. there is no way they could have ever cross the atlantic with a large enough fleet to land a substantial army. the german fleet was very small when compared to any other nation of that power. now correct me if im wrong, but the atlantic ocean is a little to big for TOWED barges to cross....

Yeah, you're right. You, a 19 year old kid, know more about planning an invasion than they did. Surely, they would have used the same plan to invade the U.S. as they would have to invade the U.K.

If the Germans hadn't lost air superiority over Britain, they wouldn't have had much trouble invading if they built boats out of old cars like the Cubans. Invading the U.S. wouldn't have been too difficult if they came through Mexico. Their only problem would be that there just weren't enough Germans to control that many Europeans while invading North America. They would have needed more allies.

You forget one thing: The Germans didn't have much of a navy. To get to Mexico, they would need a huge navy. It would have been years and years before they could have built a navy that could come all the way over here and challenge our navy with any hope of success.
And that's just the navy we already had at the time of our entry into the war......our next generations of battleships, cruisers, destroyers and carriers were already building before WW2 ever started.....we were well on our way to the most powerful navy in the world even if we didn't enter the war.
No way the Germans could ever get a significant invasion force over here. We would have sunk the 2 battleships they had in WW2, plus the battle cruisers and pocket battleships/large cruisers. They had no operational carriers at any point.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: nick1985im not saying i know more about invasion than they did, im saying their plan for invading britian was crap. thats a fact. if they had air superiority they wouldnt have had much trouble? what a crock of SH!T. i may be only 19, but i have read so many WWII books i just MIGHT know more than you. on D-Day we had air superiority and took thousands of casualties. overall it was a success, but id say our higgins boats and invasion tactics refined from pacific invasions were a LITTLE more high tech than a barge with no invasion experience. and if you knew what the coast of england at that time looked like (a friggin fortress) i dont think those germans would have had much of a chance, even with their air superiority.

It's funny how you exaggerate Britain's coastal defenses, but you ignore the Atlantic Wall as the reason we took such heavy casualties on a few of the beaches.

Anyway, you're ignoring Schadenfroh's premise - if we hadn't gotten involved, or if we had helped the Germans, Britain's supply lines would have been cut. They barely held the Germans off as it was, they would have been defeated without our help. If the Germans defeated the British, and they hadn't invaded Russia, it's definitely feasible that they could have made it to the U.S.

 

[AvesPKS]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985
germany could have NEVER gotten over to america.

hell, they couldnt even cross the friggin english channel...let alone the atlantic. i hate it when people say "we would all be speaking german..." thats such BS.

They had U-boats just off our shore... they even dropped off spies in New York (Long Island I think) with U-Boats. If we didn't help the British, particularly with our Navy, there's no doubt the Germans would have defeated them, and there's little doubt they would have made it here.

HA. do you know what they had to "cross" the english channel?? barges TOWED by tugboats. yeah, great plan. dropping off spies VIA u-boat is a hell of a lot different that a full fledged invasion army. there is no way they could have ever cross the atlantic with a large enough fleet to land a substantial army. the german fleet was very small when compared to any other nation of that power. now correct me if im wrong, but the atlantic ocean is a little to big for TOWED barges to cross....

Yeah, you're right. You, a 19 year old kid, know more about planning an invasion than they did. Surely, they would have used the same plan to invade the U.S. as they would have to invade the U.K.

If the Germans hadn't lost air superiority over Britain, they wouldn't have had much trouble invading if they built boats out of old cars like the Cubans. Invading the U.S. wouldn't have been too difficult if they came through Mexico. Their only problem would be that there just weren't enough Germans to control that many Europeans while invading North America. They would have needed more allies.

Have you seen some of the dopehead blunders Hitler made in WWII? The guy had syphillis, for chrissakes! What was that evil genius thing about having a 5 year old on your staff so that if he could spot a hole in your plan, you could change it before it happened? Maybe Hitler should have known about this.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985im not saying i know more about invasion than they did, im saying their plan for invading britian was crap. thats a fact. if they had air superiority they wouldnt have had much trouble? what a crock of SH!T. i may be only 19, but i have read so many WWII books i just MIGHT know more than you. on D-Day we had air superiority and took thousands of casualties. overall it was a success, but id say our higgins boats and invasion tactics refined from pacific invasions were a LITTLE more high tech than a barge with no invasion experience. and if you knew what the coast of england at that time looked like (a friggin fortress) i dont think those germans would have had much of a chance, even with their air superiority.

It's funny how you exaggerate Britain's coastal defenses, but you ignore the Atlantic Wall as the reason we took such heavy casualties on a few of the beaches.

Anyway, you're ignoring Schadenfroh's premise - if we hadn't gotten involved, or if we had helped the Germans, Britain's supply lines would have been cut. They barely held the Germans off as it was, they would have been defeated without our help. If the Germans defeated the British, and they hadn't invaded Russia, it's definitely feasible that they could have made it to the U.S.

atlantic wall? rommel himself said that the normandy coast was some of the weakest defences he had seen while examining the atlantic wall in his new position on the western front. but, as the expert you are, im sure you already knew that.

you also seem to be ignoring the quality of troops. i think the british troops would be a little more inclined to fight than were some of the polish conscripts on the atlantic wall...

 

[Pocatello]

If Hitler didn't invade Russia, it would had been impossible for the US and GB to win WWII. But Hitler was Hitler and had to wage a war of annialation against the Soviets . Hitler also wasted a lot of good fighting men in North Africa. His rigid idea of denfending every inch of territory until the last man was a disaster, especially in Stalingrad.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Pocatello
If Hitler didn't invade Russia, it would had been impossible for the US and GB to win WWII.

thats not true. the industrial power of the US was greater than germany could ever dream to have. it would have been only a amtter of time. 1 word. nukes.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985im not saying i know more about invasion than they did, im saying their plan for invading britian was crap. thats a fact. if they had air superiority they wouldnt have had much trouble? what a crock of SH!T. i may be only 19, but i have read so many WWII books i just MIGHT know more than you. on D-Day we had air superiority and took thousands of casualties. overall it was a success, but id say our higgins boats and invasion tactics refined from pacific invasions were a LITTLE more high tech than a barge with no invasion experience. and if you knew what the coast of england at that time looked like (a friggin fortress) i dont think those germans would have had much of a chance, even with their air superiority.

It's funny how you exaggerate Britain's coastal defenses, but you ignore the Atlantic Wall as the reason we took such heavy casualties on a few of the beaches.

Anyway, you're ignoring Schadenfroh's premise - if we hadn't gotten involved, or if we had helped the Germans, Britain's supply lines would have been cut. They barely held the Germans off as it was, they would have been defeated without our help. If the Germans defeated the British, and they hadn't invaded Russia, it's definitely feasible that they could have made it to the U.S.

atlantic wall? rommel himself said that the normandy coast was some of the weakest defences he had seen while examining the atlantic wall in his new position on the western front. but, as the expert you are, im sure you already knew that.

you also seem to be ignoring the quality of troops. i think the british troops would be a little more inclined to fight than were some of the polish conscripts on the atlantic wall...

Well actually, I did know that Rommel had a different philosophy on defending against an invasion. He wanted to pull troops OFF the wall into reserve so they could be quickly moved to wherever the invasion would occur.

 

[AvesPKS]

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: Pocatello
If Hitler didn't invade Russia, it would had been impossible for the US and GB to win WWII.

thats not true. the industrial power of the US was greater than germany could ever dream to have. it would have been only a amtter of time. 1 word. nukes.

Hehe, true. It's not exactly like Heisenberg was anywhere close, working in that cave and all.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985im not saying i know more about invasion than they did, im saying their plan for invading britian was crap. thats a fact. if they had air superiority they wouldnt have had much trouble? what a crock of SH!T. i may be only 19, but i have read so many WWII books i just MIGHT know more than you. on D-Day we had air superiority and took thousands of casualties. overall it was a success, but id say our higgins boats and invasion tactics refined from pacific invasions were a LITTLE more high tech than a barge with no invasion experience. and if you knew what the coast of england at that time looked like (a friggin fortress) i dont think those germans would have had much of a chance, even with their air superiority.

It's funny how you exaggerate Britain's coastal defenses, but you ignore the Atlantic Wall as the reason we took such heavy casualties on a few of the beaches.

Anyway, you're ignoring Schadenfroh's premise - if we hadn't gotten involved, or if we had helped the Germans, Britain's supply lines would have been cut. They barely held the Germans off as it was, they would have been defeated without our help. If the Germans defeated the British, and they hadn't invaded Russia, it's definitely feasible that they could have made it to the U.S.

atlantic wall? rommel himself said that the normandy coast was some of the weakest defences he had seen while examining the atlantic wall in his new position on the western front. but, as the expert you are, im sure you already knew that.

you also seem to be ignoring the quality of troops. i think the british troops would be a little more inclined to fight than were some of the polish conscripts on the atlantic wall...

Well actually, I did know that Rommel had a different philosophy on defending against an invasion. He wanted to pull troops OFF the wall into reserve so they could be quickly moved to wherever the invasion would occur.

well thats fine and dandy, but that has nothing to do with german invasion tactics. and if hitler had let rommel move the armor from calais when he wanted, that invasion would have been a lot bloodier. all im saying is that the germans were inept when it came to amphibious invasions. they had no experience and no equipment to carry out such an operation. crossing the atlantic with their small ghetto-ass navy and invading america just seems a little far fetched to me.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985im not saying i know more about invasion than they did, im saying their plan for invading britian was crap. thats a fact. if they had air superiority they wouldnt have had much trouble? what a crock of SH!T. i may be only 19, but i have read so many WWII books i just MIGHT know more than you. on D-Day we had air superiority and took thousands of casualties. overall it was a success, but id say our higgins boats and invasion tactics refined from pacific invasions were a LITTLE more high tech than a barge with no invasion experience. and if you knew what the coast of england at that time looked like (a friggin fortress) i dont think those germans would have had much of a chance, even with their air superiority.

It's funny how you exaggerate Britain's coastal defenses, but you ignore the Atlantic Wall as the reason we took such heavy casualties on a few of the beaches.

Anyway, you're ignoring Schadenfroh's premise - if we hadn't gotten involved, or if we had helped the Germans, Britain's supply lines would have been cut. They barely held the Germans off as it was, they would have been defeated without our help. If the Germans defeated the British, and they hadn't invaded Russia, it's definitely feasible that they could have made it to the U.S.

He isn't exaggerating England's coastal defenses. There were coastal guns a'plenty.
Big difference between England's coast and Normandy's.....we sat offshore of Normandy with multiple ships and shelled the defenses at will.
Germany couldn't have done that without having to confront England's navy, and they would never have risked the few ships they had doing that. It would have been suicide.
Even if they brought Bismarck, Tirpitz, Admiral Scheer, Admiral Graf Spee, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau all at once, with escorts, the Brits would have beaten them.

 

[Pocatello]

Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: Pocatello
If Hitler didn't invade Russia, it would had been impossible for the US and GB to win WWII.

thats not true. the industrial power of the US was greater than germany could ever dream to have. it would have been only a amtter of time. 1 word. nukes.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Pocatello
Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

we foiled the german plans to build a nuke time and time again. the destruction of hard water factories and the commando raids on their factories added YEARS to their development of the bomb. the american manhatten project was YEARS ahead of the german counterpart and there is no way the germans, even if the were not sabatoged, could have made the nuke before america.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Pocatello
Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

The first operational jet fighter was not German.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Pocatello
Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

The first operational jet fighter was not German.

thats correct. it was british. and the germans had operational jets in 1933! they chose to not follow through with them until they realized they were getting whopped by the p-51d and by that time it was to late.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Pocatello
Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

The first operational jet fighter was not German.

thats correct. it was british. and the germans had operational jets in 1933! they chose to not follow through with them until they realized they were getting whopped by the p-51d and by that time it was to late.

Actually, the a German flew the first jet in 1939. A Brit had the first operating jet engine in 1937.
Regardless, nobody produced enough jets to affect air combat in WW2.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Pocatello
Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

The first operational jet fighter was not German.

thats correct. it was british. and the germans had operational jets in 1933! they chose to not follow through with them until they realized they were getting whopped by the p-51d and by that time it was to late.

Actually, the a German flew the first jet in 1939. A Brit had the first operating jet engine in 1937.
Regardless, nobody produced enough jets to affect air combat in WW2.

the jet engine was first designed in 1930. the germans perhaps didnt fly a warplane with a jet engine in it until 1939, but they sure as sh!t had jet technology before then. regardless....they germans made dumb mistakes :beer:

 

[imported_Ziggy]

Wasn't WWII essentially Stalin versus Hitler? Why did we choose to help either of them?

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: DrEvilEvil
Wasn't WWII essentially Stalin versus Hitler? Why did we choose to help either of them?

you dont know anything.

 

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: Pocatello
Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

we foiled the german plans to build a nuke time and time again. the destruction of hard water factories and the commando raids on their factories added YEARS to their development of the bomb. the american manhatten project was YEARS ahead of the german counterpart and there is no way the germans, even if the were not sabatoged, could have made the nuke before america.

If the US dropped an atomic bomb on Germany, Hitler would had retaliate with biological/chemical weapons. Lots of civilians would die on both side, but won't have much impact militarily. Even during the around the clock bombing by the British and US bombers of Germany, which killed hundred of thousands of Germans and destroyed entire cities(comparable to a few atomic bombs), German industries managed to put out record numbers, by spreading production facilities to many different places. If Germany catch up with the atomic bomb technology, New York would had been destroyed too. Again Germany had the ballistic missiles, we had slow-mo B-17. In the end, it was all about how much time we had. By fighting two fronts, Germany was quickly defeated.

 

[Pocatello]

Another thing was during the Normandy invasion, many of the best German divisions were fighting on the Eastern Front. If those divisions were
deployed around France...things would had been very different. Even with just a few Tiger tanks, the Germans made life extremely difficult for the allied Shermans. All of those Tiger and Panther tanks, instead of being destroyed at Kursk, would had been been waiting in France.

 

[adelphi]

george bush is in the office, looks like they already won

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: Pocatello
Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

The intercontinental missiles were nearly finished at the end of the war (AFAIK, and i am not an expert)..Hitler called them 'Anti Amerika Rockets'....guess why....

 

[Justin218]

Originally posted by: flexy

Originally posted by: Pocatello
Germany was developing the atomic bomb also, it was only a matter of time before Hitler had the bomb and the intercontinental ballistic missile.
Germany was way in front in rocket technology among other things such as jet fighters.

The intercontinental missiles were nearly finished at the end of the war (AFAIK, and i am not an expert)..Hitler called them 'Anti Amerika Rockets'....guess why....

V2 was barely working... I highly doubt intercontinental missiles were any more than a sketch on a piece of paper in werner von braun's office

 

[nan0bug]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
If Hitler was running the show in Germany then they still would've lost. Hitler was a fool. If he would've left the decisions up to his generals Germany very likely could have won WW2. Japan would be the ruler of the East and Germany would rule the rest of the world in your scenario.
-my 2 cents

Hitler was a fool because he left decisions up to people like Hermann Göring. That and he made decisions based on impulse in areas where he lacked knowledge, trusting his gut feeling. He also ruled with an iron fist, so people were afraid to tell him the truth about a lot of things.

That said, Germany still would have won. There would have eventually been a coup but Hitler would have led Germany to victory. He almost did, even with us standing in his way.