World War 2, a what if thread

[Schadenfroh]

Ok, say we changed a few conditions of world war 2. How do you think the war would have went if these things were changed.

(ScenerioA)1st. Japan and Germany/italy never form an alliance
2nd. In the US, during the great depression, a facist political party becomes the majority to create a pro facist state out of the US. The US does not enter the war in europe and remains neutral, but does sell supplies to Germany/Italy.
(scenerioB)3rd. Pearl Harbor is still bombed by the japanese

Your thoughts on how the war would have went please

 

[Dufman]

German would have won, becasue we could have supplied them with all the hardware they needed.

A big reason we won the war, was becasue we could just out produce people. Expecially becasue no one took out our production.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

If Hitler was running the show in Germany then they still would've lost. Hitler was a fool. If he would've left the decisions up to his generals Germany very likely could have won WW2. Japan would be the ruler of the East and Germany would rule the rest of the world in your scenario.
-my 2 cents

 

[nick1985]

germany could have NEVER gotten over to america.

hell, they couldnt even cross the friggin english channel...let alone the atlantic. i hate it when people say "we would all be speaking german..." thats such BS.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

If the US hadn't entered the war. The Axis would have won. Europe would be speaking german all through out, and a lot of the asian islands and countries would be under Japanese control. Thus the US would be surrounded by 2 very large hostile enemies and our only saving grace is that we are to far away to worry about any real invasion.

 

[Armitage]

Germany got its ass handed to them on the eastern front without our help. They may have held onto western europe though.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: ergeorge
Germany got its ass handed to them on the eastern front without our help. They may have held onto western europe though.

without our help? what do you call millions of tons of supplies sent to russia???

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: nick1985
germany could have NEVER gotten over to america.

hell, they couldnt even cross the friggin english channel...let alone the atlantic. i hate it when people say "we would all be speaking german..." thats such BS.

They had U-boats just off our shore... they even dropped off spies in New York (Long Island I think) with U-Boats. If we didn't help the British, particularly with our Navy, there's no doubt the Germans would have defeated them, and there's little doubt they would have made it here.

 

[DrNoobie]

:music:
Hast du etwas Zeit fur mich
Dann singe ich ein Lied fur dich
Von 99 Luftballons
Auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
Denkst du vielleicht g' rad an mich
Dann singe ich ein Lied fur dich
Von 99 Luftballons
Und dass sowas von sowas kommt
99 Luftballons
Auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
Hilet man fur Ufos aus dem All
Darum schickte ein General
'Ne Fliegerstafell hinterher
Alarm zu geben, wenn' s si war
Dabei war' n da am Horizont
Nur 99 Luftballons
99 Dusenjager
Jeder war ein grosser Krieger
Hielten zich fur Captain Kirk
Das gab ein grosses Feuerwerk
Die Nachbarn haben nichts gerafft
Und fuhlten sucg gleich angemacht
Dabei schoss man am Horizont
Auf 99 Luftballons
99 Kriegsminister
Streichholz und Benzinkanister
Hielten sich fur schlaue Leute
Witterten schon fette Beute
Riefen: Kring und wollten Macht
mann, wer hatte das gedacht
Dass es einmal soweit kommt
Wegen 99 Luftballons
99 Jahre Krieg
Liessen keine Platz fur Sieger
Kriegsminister gibt' s nicht mehr
Und auch keine Dusenflieger
Heute zieh ich meine Runden
Seh' die Welt in Trummern liegen
Hab' 'nen Luftballon gefunden
Denk' an dich und lass' ihn fliegen
:music:

 

[nick1985]

dp

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985
germany could have NEVER gotten over to america.

hell, they couldnt even cross the friggin english channel...let alone the atlantic. i hate it when people say "we would all be speaking german..." thats such BS.

They had U-boats just off our shore... they even dropped off spies in New York (Long Island I think) with U-Boats. If we didn't help the British, particularly with our Navy, there's no doubt the Germans would have defeated them, and there's little doubt they would have made it here.

HA. do you know what they had to "cross" the english channel?? barges TOWED by tugboats. yeah, great plan. dropping off spies VIA u-boat is a hell of a lot different that a full fledged invasion army. there is no way they could have ever cross the atlantic with a large enough fleet to land a substantial army. the german fleet was very small when compared to any other nation of that power. now correct me if im wrong, but the atlantic ocean is a little to big for TOWED barges to cross....

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: ergeorge
Germany got its ass handed to them on the eastern front without our help. They may have held onto western europe though.

without our help? what do you call millions of tons of supplies sent to russia???

I don't think lend/lease turned the tide of the war. The sheer size of Russia, the brutality of the Russian winter, and ALOT of very angry, very resourceful Russians turned the tide on the Eastern front.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: ergeorge

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: ergeorge
Germany got its ass handed to them on the eastern front without our help. They may have held onto western europe though.

without our help? what do you call millions of tons of supplies sent to russia???

I don't think lend/lease turned the tide of the war. The sheer size of Russia, the brutality of the Russian winter, and ALOT of very angry, very resourceful Russians turned the tide on the Eastern front.

i dont know about "turned the tide" but i would definately say it helped....probably more than you can understand. saying "without our help" is a very inaccurate statement. the russians were not always kickin ass ya know...they came damn close to losing the war. i think millions of tons of supplies might have helped prevent that, if only slightly.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985
germany could have NEVER gotten over to america.

hell, they couldnt even cross the friggin english channel...let alone the atlantic. i hate it when people say "we would all be speaking german..." thats such BS.

They had U-boats just off our shore... they even dropped off spies in New York (Long Island I think) with U-Boats. If we didn't help the British, particularly with our Navy, there's no doubt the Germans would have defeated them, and there's little doubt they would have made it here.

HA. do you know what they had to "cross" the english channel?? barges TOWED by tugboats. yeah, great plan. dropping off spies VIA u-boat is a hell of a lot different that a full fledged invasion army. there is no way they could have ever cross the atlantic with a large enough fleet to land a substantial army. the german fleet was very small when compared to any other nation of that power. now correct me if im wrong, but the atlantic ocean is a little to big for TOWED barges to cross....

Yeah, you're right. You, a 19 year old kid, know more about planning an invasion than they did. Surely, they would have used the same plan to invade the U.S. as they would have to invade the U.K.

If the Germans hadn't lost air superiority over Britain, they wouldn't have had much trouble invading if they built boats out of old cars like the Cubans. Invading the U.S. wouldn't have been too difficult if they came through Mexico. Their only problem would be that there just weren't enough Germans to control that many Europeans while invading North America. They would have needed more allies.

 

[beer]

Didn't the eastern front account for 80+% of all of Germany's casualties?

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985
germany could have NEVER gotten over to america.

hell, they couldnt even cross the friggin english channel...let alone the atlantic. i hate it when people say "we would all be speaking german..." thats such BS.

They had U-boats just off our shore... they even dropped off spies in New York (Long Island I think) with U-Boats. If we didn't help the British, particularly with our Navy, there's no doubt the Germans would have defeated them, and there's little doubt they would have made it here.

There is no way in hell they would have made it here.
The only reason we succesfully invaded and took back Europe was because we still had England there to stage from and we had enourmous resources so we could afford the horrendous losses of the atlantic war and still field a tremendous army there.

Imagine trying to stage D Day from NY harbor

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nick1985
germany could have NEVER gotten over to america.

hell, they couldnt even cross the friggin english channel...let alone the atlantic. i hate it when people say "we would all be speaking german..." thats such BS.

They had U-boats just off our shore... they even dropped off spies in New York (Long Island I think) with U-Boats. If we didn't help the British, particularly with our Navy, there's no doubt the Germans would have defeated them, and there's little doubt they would have made it here.

HA. do you know what they had to "cross" the english channel?? barges TOWED by tugboats. yeah, great plan. dropping off spies VIA u-boat is a hell of a lot different that a full fledged invasion army. there is no way they could have ever cross the atlantic with a large enough fleet to land a substantial army. the german fleet was very small when compared to any other nation of that power. now correct me if im wrong, but the atlantic ocean is a little to big for TOWED barges to cross....

Yeah, you're right. You, a 19 year old kid, know more about planning an invasion than they did. Surely, they would have used the same plan to invade the U.S. as they would have to invade the U.K.

If the Germans hadn't lost air superiority over Britain, they wouldn't have had much trouble invading if they built boats out of old cars like the Cubans. Invading the U.S. wouldn't have been too difficult if they came through Mexico. Their only problem would be that there just weren't enough Germans to control that many Europeans while invading North America. They would have needed more allies.

im not saying i know more about invasion than they did, im saying their plan for invading britian was crap. thats a fact. if they had air superiority they wouldnt have had much trouble? what a crock of SH!T. i may be only 19, but i have read so many WWII books i just MIGHT know more than you. on D-Day we had air superiority and took thousands of casualties. overall it was a success, but id say our higgins boats and invasion tactics refined from pacific invasions were a LITTLE more high tech than a barge with no invasion experience. and if you knew what the coast of england at that time looked like (a friggin fortress) i dont think those germans would have had much of a chance, even with their air superiority.

 

[DWW]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Ok, say we changed a few conditions of world war 2. How do you think the war would have went if these things were changed.

(ScenerioA)1st. Japan and Germany/italy never form an alliance
2nd. In the US, during the great depression, a facist political party becomes the majority to create a pro facist state out of the US. The US does not enter the war in europe and remains neutral, but does sell supplies to Germany/Italy.
(scenerioB)3rd. Pearl Harbor is still bombed by the japanese

Your thoughts on how the war would have went please

2nd, is well iffy. Hitler wanted other anglo-saxon groups to join with him. He wanted an alliance with Brittain which most people don't know. King Edward and his representatives met with Germans many times but Edward abdicated so he could marry someone that the royalty wouldn't let him. Churchill too was for it until he learned that he would not retain as much power. Many people think Churchill is some great wonder, and a lot of old farts expecially think he is great. Read about him and you will see how big of an ass he was (not for not forming an alliance, but in general).

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: beer
Didn't the eastern front account for 80+% of all of Germany's casualties?

Dunno ... but the Russians lost about as many men in just the Battle of Berlin then the US lost in the entire war ... both theatres. And the Russian industrial machine cranked up pretty well also ... they fielded a tremendous number of tanks in particular.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Imagine trying to stage D Day from NY harbor

You mean D-month.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: ergeorge

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: ergeorge
Germany got its ass handed to them on the eastern front without our help. They may have held onto western europe though.

without our help? what do you call millions of tons of supplies sent to russia???

I don't think lend/lease turned the tide of the war. The sheer size of Russia, the brutality of the Russian winter, and ALOT of very angry, very resourceful Russians turned the tide on the Eastern front.

Lend/lease absolutely kept the Russians and the British from losing the war. There isn't even any debating that. Without it, Russia would have fallen more quickly than it did in the first place. They never would have stopped the Germans, and it would've been over.
I'd say that, if the US never entered the war but helped in the form of supplies, etc., the British would've eventually made peace with Hitler, but the European continent would've remained under Nazi control. The Germans weren't really capable of invading England, and Hitler really didn't want to at first, anyway.
Britain could never have mounted an invasion of Europe, ever.....not a successful one, anyway. So the stalemate would have been prolonged, and eventually one side or another would have sued for peace.

If the above scenario took place, we would have beaten the crap out of Japan much sooner. Roosevelt had a "Europe first" policy in WW2, and therefore most of our men and supplies went to that theatre instead of the Pacific. If we didn't fight in Europe, the Japs would have gotten the beat down much sooner.....imagine if our entire military was focused on Japan immediately after Pearl Harbor.

After all this was over, it seems that we basically would have had a cold war with the Germans instead of the Soviets.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Imagine trying to stage D Day from NY harbor

You mean D-month.

Yep
Actually, I'm reading "The Longest Day" right now. Freaking amazing :Q

 

[CubicZirconia]

They had U-boats just off our shore... they even dropped off spies in New York (Long Island I think) with U-Boats

Four German spies were dropped off somewhere near New York and another four were dropped off in Florida. The problem was (for Germany) that all 8 spies had previously been residents of the US. Most of them weren't all that committed to causing the US any harm. Two of them decided to surrender to the FBI almost immediately upon landing in the states. Using information from the first two guys, the FBI then proceeded to track down the other 6 pretty quickly. FDR wanted to make the captives into examples, and I believe 6 of them were put to death within months. If I remember correctly, the sentences of the 2 that weren't executed were eventually communted. I think one of the guys returned to Germany and committed suicide.

As I understand it, the FBI really handled the situation well. They didn't tell the media about the informant, rather they just pretended like they captured the spies all on their own. This discouraged Germany from attempting any more sabotage missions in the US.

/end sidenote

 

[Ozoned]

1.) Germany would implode from the genocide,by her own peoples hand
rather than at the allies hand. Hitlers real goal always was not world conquest,
but a conquest of purification of the worlds population.

Japan in a way dragged him away from his calling.

2.) After we became the pro facist state, we bankrupted germany with our
huge proffits we had to have, to produce their war goods they needed to fight
off mexico, saudia arabia and scotland. (It could have happened)

3.) I don't see anything changed in this scenerio

 

[BeauJangles]

Without aid from the US, Russia would have NEVER been able to both feed its population and produce for the war. It simply hadn't developed the productive capacity. As said above, the Germans would have crushed the Russian armies despite the great distances invovled. If Germany had captured Moscow, the war would have been over. The Russian government was too centralized to spark any sort of continued resistance, everything would have collapsed with the fall of Moscow.

The what-ifs here are really far out, but I would agree with the previous poster that the US would have beaten Japan and fougth another massive ocean war against Germany (the plan in Germany was to have a massive surface fleet by 1947 and, with a victory in Russia this would have been more than possible).