Everyone is evil and I am the light. This is my view on the world, and I alone can save you all from yourselves.
Will a woman come into heat again more quickly if you kill her child? Will she want to have sex with you? You are not a cat, you are a man, no? And how can there be evil if there are no words for it. Do you not see the cat as evil because you have words for what you would not do? Seems to me that to be human is to see the other as yourself.
If you believe in right and wrong then you believe in good and bad and yet you say these things are not valid. You are just comfortable with the way you happened by chance to fall out? You just know that you are right and others wrong? On what basis, if truth is relative, are morals not equivalent, other than your opinion?
What is the problem with eating a healthy brain or killing a chicken or having an old fashioned dress standard for women?
What can I say?? You have me in a language trap here. I can't defend my position that we don't know if the cat felt he was doing something bad/unnatural without using the very words that make you and I human.
I guess you got me on the good/evil language thing. It's like the tree that falls in the forest with nobody around. Did it make a sound when it fell? No, because sound is a word invented and defined by humans, so without a human to hear it there was no sound made. The air still moved out of the way and the tree still ended up on the ground, but there was no sound made.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,790
- 6,349
- 126
OMG! This thread is surely the Sign of the End. 
It is only through the Knowledge gained by Collective experience that leads to Good or Evil IMO. We all want Good, but often fall for Evil because we refuse to Learn from History. Which is why we are where we are and why we have come to the current place we are. Once Europe broke the shackles of Tradition and began exploring the History of Ancient Civilization, the Dark Ages ended and a great light opened the way for further endeavours. Along with that Learning from History came new ideas and Principled concepts such as Science to further advance Good in Humanity. Along with those Advances came new Technologies, Philosophies, and avenues to which greater Good can be realized, if we should so desire. Ultimately though, we shall likely fail and embrace Evil when the effort to acheive even more Good seems too costly. If we fail, from our ashes some future Civilization can once again Learn and pursue their avenue to Good towards the ultimate Humanist dream, Heaven.
It is only through the Knowledge gained by Collective experience that leads to Good or Evil IMO. We all want Good, but often fall for Evil because we refuse to Learn from History. Which is why we are where we are and why we have come to the current place we are. Once Europe broke the shackles of Tradition and began exploring the History of Ancient Civilization, the Dark Ages ended and a great light opened the way for further endeavours. Along with that Learning from History came new ideas and Principled concepts such as Science to further advance Good in Humanity. Along with those Advances came new Technologies, Philosophies, and avenues to which greater Good can be realized, if we should so desire. Ultimately though, we shall likely fail and embrace Evil when the effort to acheive even more Good seems too costly. If we fail, from our ashes some future Civilization can once again Learn and pursue their avenue to Good towards the ultimate Humanist dream, Heaven.
Bitek
Lifer
- Aug 2, 2001
- 10,676
- 5,239
- 136
I think the ideas of Good and Evil are better defined as Selflessness and Selfishness. Any action can be judged along a continuum of these two motivations. The problem with this however, is two fold.
One, these motivations are not neccesarly mutually-exclusive, contrary to what popularly thought in Western mythos. There are a few acts that are clearly one-sided, but the overwhelming majority are a combination of the two forces.
Two, this judgement relies on perspective and vantage-point. What may seem a selfless act from one view can be seen as selfish from another. I think it's this difference in judgement that is a cause of a lot of conflicts.
Eg.
People avoided applying such labels as good and evil to the actions of animals in Nature, but from this paradigm one becomes able to. From this insight we can also better understand ourselves, as we also are spawned from and operate in the realm of Nature. One's own existance is inherently a selfish act. Inorder to sustain life we must destroy the lives of others, by this we are selfishly valueing our existance over that of the other. Vegetarians and vegans are not immune. Even the act of farming chooses the life of the farm over that of the wild space, of its plants and animals that would inhabit the space if it were not for the continuous creation and sustainment of the farm. This then begs my answer to your final question.
The question of whether man is good or evil is indeterminate. There are advantages in both, and the strongest suit is a combination of both. Nature rewards selfishness with the gift of life. From the example above, our creation of the farm is a selfish act, but is not the desire of The Forest to inhabit that space instead a selfish act as well? Who then has the right to the finite quantum of resource that defines the struggle of/for life? In the end, the only truely selfless act is one's own non-existance. I would preface this however that I think existance of Life itself is joyful and is the ultimate destiny of the universe. To what end I do not know, other than to be.
Some may not like my view as it offers no easy answers and no clear purpose, but that only bolters my belief in its validity.
One, these motivations are not neccesarly mutually-exclusive, contrary to what popularly thought in Western mythos. There are a few acts that are clearly one-sided, but the overwhelming majority are a combination of the two forces.
Two, this judgement relies on perspective and vantage-point. What may seem a selfless act from one view can be seen as selfish from another. I think it's this difference in judgement that is a cause of a lot of conflicts.
Eg.
People avoided applying such labels as good and evil to the actions of animals in Nature, but from this paradigm one becomes able to. From this insight we can also better understand ourselves, as we also are spawned from and operate in the realm of Nature. One's own existance is inherently a selfish act. Inorder to sustain life we must destroy the lives of others, by this we are selfishly valueing our existance over that of the other. Vegetarians and vegans are not immune. Even the act of farming chooses the life of the farm over that of the wild space, of its plants and animals that would inhabit the space if it were not for the continuous creation and sustainment of the farm. This then begs my answer to your final question.
The question of whether man is good or evil is indeterminate. There are advantages in both, and the strongest suit is a combination of both. Nature rewards selfishness with the gift of life. From the example above, our creation of the farm is a selfish act, but is not the desire of The Forest to inhabit that space instead a selfish act as well? Who then has the right to the finite quantum of resource that defines the struggle of/for life? In the end, the only truely selfless act is one's own non-existance. I would preface this however that I think existance of Life itself is joyful and is the ultimate destiny of the universe. To what end I do not know, other than to be.
Some may not like my view as it offers no easy answers and no clear purpose, but that only bolters my belief in its validity.
Yes and there was no tree and no forest.
But the issue, I think, is how words tie up with memory. As a child if you are sick you may cry and if you are punished and called bad you may also, but in the case of the former little trace is left, whereas with the latter there may be a guilt that haunts you driven into unconsciousness. It is this learning and forgetting that we are evil that creates endless misery I think. This can't happen without the abstraction that words make possible, this invention of something that doesn't exist. It was the action that was wrong, but we were told it was us. All the hate for that action was directed at you which is how we get our own hate as adults for the action.
Which, if you follow my logic, brings us back to why I think man is basically good. He desires to please. When he feels he can't or wasn't given the chance to then the hate/resentment begins to seep in. To me it seems we were born to please, but had to learn how to hate.
Have you ever read anything about Helen Keller? It's been a long time since I saw the movie, but I believe she wrote an autobiography. I think that would be worth a read at this point in my life.
Yes, I believe that Helen Keller found out too late in life that she was no good for it to matter.
And I think she tried to give some sense of what consciousness without words was like. But human consciousness and human life are about communication which Helen did not have. She suffered in an emptiness of meaning. We suffer from a mistake in meaning, I think, the feeling that we are no good.as i stated before...
I'm perfectly happy stating that if a religion, a culture, a political group, has views that differ with mine, that my "truth" is superior to their "truth"
I'm not into moral equivalency..
just because someone in the jungle of New Guinea eats a dead relatives brain after they die...because that is their "religious tradition"...I know that's wrong, and "cultural sensitivity" in this situation is bogus.
Just because Santorian's believe in sacrificing chicken's as part of their religious practices..I don't care, I know that's wrong.
That many Arab societies closet their women, and cover them up with sheets....I know that's medieval and wrong...
I'm comfortable telling right from wrong in my life, even though i recognize that other's may not see their own acts as bad.
executive summary: good/bad/truth are all relative to one's personal point of view....however, i will always pick my point of view as being superior, because i am not partisan, i am just right.
Given there is no truth and no partisanship in operation you shouldn't have any point of view because you have no motive to. Seems inevitable you are practicing some sort of deception.
man is basically evil. I say this because the only person I ever see is me, and I know that I?m inherently evil, though self-justifying. But even more inherent than our tendency to go against what is good is our knowledge of what is good and our desire to look although we?re following that.
Are we inherently good? Sure, but we inherently defy that as well.
evolutionarily women don?t need to live past 40, so wouldn?t that mean that your arguing males, who have use for society, are good and women are evil?
Kerouactivist
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2001
- 4,665
- 0
- 76
It sounds like you live in a delusional state where you are always right and your beliefs are superior as you sit in judgement of everyone else. A classic elitist attitude. One man's evil is not another man's good, rather the concepts are universal. An evil act harms others while a good act benefits others. As someone mentioned earlier, it's quite easy to have elements of both good and evil in any given act.
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yes, I believe that Helen Keller found out too late in life that she was no good for it to matter.
But once we recognize the self hatred and why we have it then we can fight (conquer) it and enjoy what's left of our time on Earth. After all, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life" and "I'm going to have fun, fun, fun until Daddie takes the T-bird away".
Hey, don't worry...be happy!!
Well... here's my spin on things. I would argue that humans pursue what is good, however, as children prove time and time again we like to rebel against the law. It's arguable that this serves an evolutionary purpose; that this is something innate in us that allows us to evolve. Especially if we talk about population dynamics and ecology. For me this also fits in with my religious beliefs of a heaven and a hell. That we were created perfect, in the image of our Maker and that our pursuit of the knowledge of good and evil was a catalyst to bringing us to where we are today. Forced to choose between submiting to a all supreme being or pushing that aside and taking destiny into our own hands. In the end death is the ultimate answer. For it is either the price for our evil desires, our humanity, or it is just simply the laws of thermodynamics taking their course and nothing more.
Kerouactivist
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2001
- 4,665
- 0
- 76
The truth lies within......
Jack Kerouac "The Dharma Bums"
"We pushed the bike down past the various college hangouts and cafeterias and looked into Robbie's to see if we knew anybody. Alvah was in there, working his part-time job as busboy. Japhy and I were kind of outlandish-looking on the campus in our old clothes in fact Japhy was considered an eccentric around the campus, which is the usual thing for campuses and college people to think whenever a real man appears on the scene -- college being nothing but grooming schools for the middle-class non-identity which usually finds its perfect expression on the outskirts of the campus in rows of well-to-do houses with lawns and television sets in each living room with everybody looking at the same thing at the same time while the Japhies of the world go prowling in the wilderness to hear the voice crying in the dark mysterious secret of the origin of faceless wonderless crapulous civilization. 'All these people,' said Japhy, 'they all got white-tiled toilets and take big dirty craps like bears in the mountains, but it's all washed away to convenient supervised sewers and nobody thinks of crap any more or realizes their origin is $hit and civet and scum of the sea. They spend all day washing their hands with creamy soaps they secretly wanta eat in the bathroom."
Yep I think thats it..
Jack Kerouac "The Dharma Bums"
"We pushed the bike down past the various college hangouts and cafeterias and looked into Robbie's to see if we knew anybody. Alvah was in there, working his part-time job as busboy. Japhy and I were kind of outlandish-looking on the campus in our old clothes in fact Japhy was considered an eccentric around the campus, which is the usual thing for campuses and college people to think whenever a real man appears on the scene -- college being nothing but grooming schools for the middle-class non-identity which usually finds its perfect expression on the outskirts of the campus in rows of well-to-do houses with lawns and television sets in each living room with everybody looking at the same thing at the same time while the Japhies of the world go prowling in the wilderness to hear the voice crying in the dark mysterious secret of the origin of faceless wonderless crapulous civilization. 'All these people,' said Japhy, 'they all got white-tiled toilets and take big dirty craps like bears in the mountains, but it's all washed away to convenient supervised sewers and nobody thinks of crap any more or realizes their origin is $hit and civet and scum of the sea. They spend all day washing their hands with creamy soaps they secretly wanta eat in the bathroom."
Yep I think thats it..
"Today is the greatest
Day I've ever known
Can't live for tomorrow,
Tomorrow's much too long
I'll burn my eyes out
Before I get out
I wanted more
Than life could ever grant me
Bored by the chore
Of saving face"
Ohh.. someone just got pedagogy served.
Day I've ever known
Can't live for tomorrow,
Tomorrow's much too long
I'll burn my eyes out
Before I get out
I wanted more
Than life could ever grant me
Bored by the chore
Of saving face"
Ohh.. someone just got pedagogy served.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
Man is neither good nor evil. In fact there is no such thing as good and evil as most people think of it. They're simply opposite ends of the same idea. What's good to one is evil to another, and vice versa.
As for man, man is basically and fundamentally selfish. The acts men carry out, whether considered good or evil by others, are invariably done for selfish reasons.
As for man, man is basically and fundamentally selfish. The acts men carry out, whether considered good or evil by others, are invariably done for selfish reasons.
Cerb
Elite Member
- Aug 26, 2000
- 17,484
- 33
- 86
He is whichever we define him to be, and also the other. That is part of our problem, that we have not gone beyond black or white, and realized that by creating black, we must also create and encourage white. In defining good, we must begin to realize that this means there is a not-good, aka evil. So, in calling Man good, we have also called Man to be evil.
I am. You are. We are.
I am less without the We, and the We is less without the I or You.
You cannot experience my life, and I cannot experience yours. We can, however, share between us knowledge of each others' lives, relating that to our own.
Some truths, primarily boundaries between what is your realm and what is mine, can be agreed upon between us. However, beyond that, our truths will diverge, with little things becoming slightly more different as we attempt to isolate specific parts of our truths. That is part of, though clearly not the totality of, why we are a large group of creatures, with many sub-groups, down to the one (and possibly farther), which each experience the world in a slightly, or greatly, different fashion.
By relating our truths through communication, including civil discourse (er, calm arguing
), we each gain a bit more insight into our own truth. With enough of our own truth, we might find what we are here to do, whether it was ordained for us, or whether we are to do a thing with our lives by circumstance. This truth, ultimately, comes down to being called Will. A very nice word, and keeps me from having to define aspects of truth.We do not exist as entirely separate units. We are part of a whole. I do not merely mean this in the sense that we are related through events that affect more than one of us, but that there is either a tangible connection between us, or that we all have a tangible connection with what is the whole of us.
It's hard to bring some things gained from experiences into words. Our communication has kept up with our ability to perform basic logic and action, but not real understanding and emotion. This is a problem, because it allows easily understandable doctrines to become comforting, thus taking the masses. Meanwhile those who have had experiences beyond what language has managed to encompass are either not understood or do not realize that others have no such feeling or understanding. In the latter case, if it is realized, then the former case becomes true.
There are at least two catch-22 situations that form, there. However, thinking bounded by time, and that cannot handle paradoxes very well, won't be able to get around it. We're right at that point. If a solution can be found, then such experience and understanding may be imparted to others.
*deep breath* I think I'll stop there. Truth is a loaded word, MB.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
Yeah, that didn't really make much sense, now that I think about it. It's more different perspectives of the same act.
Killing an animal for food is considered (by most) acceptable. Some find any killing of animals despicable. Some say that killing a wounded animal is not only acceptable, but compassionate. All are the same act, yet done with different intentions. What makes one good and the other evil? Good and evil is simply in the eye of the beholder.
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