World of Warcraft

[Xylitol]

I'm probably going to miss the 40 man raids that Blizzard made. Although they were really frustrating, looking back, you're going to miss the sheer number of people helping on these raids.

A 25 man raid for Black Temple, the "hardest raid," seems really pathetic.
Anyone else feel this way?

Also, the Outlands raids seem a lot "tamer" than the original raids + There isn't going to be an event (like the AQ war effort) when Black Temple releases.

 

[C42]

Less people = Less room for error. Makes it more challenging IMO. Its not like you will be with the exact same 25, if you had 40 people pre-BC then you will still be raiding with the same core people I'd think. Maybe 2 raid teams in a guild etc. My first MMO was Everquest, so I liked the idea of trying it with less. We never really tried with more than 30 people and tried going with around 20 most of the time.

 

[CKent]

Nah, 40 made it feel like a guided tour. My favorites were ZG and AQ20, 20-25 seems just about right. Unfortunately, aside from a lucky few, everyone's stuck in the 10man karazhan bottleneck right now.

 

[Schadenfroh]

I disliked 40 man MC, BWL was a lil better, but overall, I think 20 man is the sweet spot (ZG was really fun to me).

 

[DannyLove]

40??? LOL
That's nothing. Oh man, I recall these massive hundreds of people storming Sidi or dragon raids or DF back in my DAoC days.... ah memories.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: C42
Less people = Less room for error. Makes it more challenging IMO. Its not like you will be with the exact same 25, if you had 40 people pre-BC then you will still be raiding with the same core people I'd think. Maybe 2 raid teams in a guild etc. My first MMO was Everquest, so I liked the idea of trying it with less. We never really tried with more than 30 people and tried going with around 20 most of the time.

You mean more room for error?

It was well known that back in the day, people could go AFK and just sit around doing nothing. I know some people that specced in /follow!

I sure hope people aren't really stuck in Karazhan. If my brother's guild has 2 bosses left (Prince and Shade) and they're just a bunch of regular joes, then that shows there isn't much (note that their guild never did anything raid-wise before TBC and was just for fun). I have no idea if they've attempted Prince, but I know they've tried the Shade of Aran. I doubt I'll ever do PVE again... I just can't get myself to care about it anymore .

See, MC was bad because there was constant trash clean-up... which made people want to clean it in one fell-swoop or else you had to clean the same mobs up again and again. BWL stopped this a little with the removal of trash once you beat a boss (certain bosses removed certain spawns).

 

[futuristicmonkey]

LEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSS!

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: C42
Less people = Less room for error. Makes it more challenging IMO. Its not like you will be with the exact same 25, if you had 40 people pre-BC then you will still be raiding with the same core people I'd think. Maybe 2 raid teams in a guild etc. My first MMO was Everquest, so I liked the idea of trying it with less. We never really tried with more than 30 people and tried going with around 20 most of the time.

You mean more room for error?

It was well known that back in the day, people could go AFK and just sit around doing nothing. I know some people that specced in /follow!

I sure hope people aren't really stuck in Karazhan. If my brother's guild has 2 bosses left (Prince and Shade) and they're just a bunch of regular joes, then that shows there isn't much (note that their guild never did anything raid-wise before TBC and was just for fun). I have no idea if they've attempted Prince, but I know they've tried the Shade of Aran. I doubt I'll ever do PVE again... I just can't get myself to care about it anymore .

See, MC was bad because there was constant trash clean-up... which made people want to clean it in one fell-swoop or else you had to clean the same mobs up again and again. BWL stopped this a little with the removal of trash once you beat a boss (certain bosses removed certain spawns).

It's not that anyone is "stuck" in Karazhan, per se. It's that it does have a learning curve and take time to progress through. And while working on it people are not doing 25man content (Gruul's, SSC). Because of this it's very clique-friendly, creating a huge divide between the haves and the have-nots. I was part of a karazhan clique on my shaman... but... I played a shaman No class has bent over and been goatse'd by the developers quite like shamans, so I got sick of it and quit. I also felt guilty knowing that the have-nots were really getting upset at the cockblock.

IMO two easy solutions could have fixed this (but it's too late now):

1) Make karazhan a little shorter and easier. Not quite UBRS, but 2 weeks and you're done, and can move on to more socially forgiving 25mans. The same 10 people want in kara, but with 25 you have a lot of leeway with people not being able to make it sometimes, and also more leeway with class makeup, so there ends up being more of a chance for everyone involved.

2) Make the first raid a 25man instead of the 10man.

Like Shchad and I both said, ZG was just about perfect.

 

[C42]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: C42
Less people = Less room for error. Makes it more challenging IMO. Its not like you will be with the exact same 25, if you had 40 people pre-BC then you will still be raiding with the same core people I'd think. Maybe 2 raid teams in a guild etc. My first MMO was Everquest, so I liked the idea of trying it with less. We never really tried with more than 30 people and tried going with around 20 most of the time.

You mean more room for error?

It was well known that back in the day, people could go AFK and just sit around doing nothing. I know some people that specced in /follow!

I sure hope people aren't really stuck in Karazhan. If my brother's guild has 2 bosses left (Prince and Shade) and they're just a bunch of regular joes, then that shows there isn't much (note that their guild never did anything raid-wise before TBC and was just for fun). I have no idea if they've attempted Prince, but I know they've tried the Shade of Aran. I doubt I'll ever do PVE again... I just can't get myself to care about it anymore .

See, MC was bad because there was constant trash clean-up... which made people want to clean it in one fell-swoop or else you had to clean the same mobs up again and again. BWL stopped this a little with the removal of trash once you beat a boss (certain bosses removed certain spawns).

Nope, meant less room for error. If one person goes afk at the wrong time, casts the wrong spell, misses a heal etc- its going to be felt more in the raid. Also going to be harder to recover from. In BWL if one healer went OOM, playing alliance we had time to let a paladin's blessing of light + healer wanding to get mana back until his pot timer was up etc. In Kara if a healer goes OOM, I'd imagine you are going to lose someone or wipe (Not sure I hit 61 and gave up with WoW).

I was the main hunter/puller for my guild in everything from ZG to AQ. The thing I hated about 40 mans was waiting on someone to get back from AFK to pull/advance. If it was just lets say some kind of dps (rogue/hunter/lock/mage) on a trash pull it was cool. You had people just afk'ing and only playing on bosses and whatnot. With 10 and 25 mans they can't really get away with this so easily and you don't have people riding your coat-tails to get gear. Getting items they haven't earned and whatnot. I guess its like as the main-puller you could see a difference in if I went afk for 5 minutes and someone else pulled that didn't know the little tricks/paths to pulling a dungeon. Same as if your MT goes afk and a warrior that hasn't tanked much in the dungeon is given a shot to be the MT. Sure they need to learn to assume those roles to fill in when the main tank/puller isn't available but you can see the difference. Everyone plays a bigger role in smaller raids.

So no, people have less room to screw up now that there are smaller numbers in end-game raiding. Kind of like if you were in AV and someone went all Rambo and died in 5 seconds, it would hurt you only very slightly in your teams effort to win the 40 man, but if you were to lose someone in WSG or AB you would definitely feel it more. Everyone carries more weight on their shoulders.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Ever since the 40 man raids have been removed so to speak it has been nothing but a PITA for our guild. The 25 man content is just crap right now, WAY too much trash, poor itemization STILL and the fact we were built for 40 man content has made it really tough making people sit out. We are 2 bosses from being done with SSC and getting ready to head to the Keep right now but from what I have heard its not gonna be anything special.


I look forward to BT and Hyjal for at least the T6 gear which for a rogue is probably the best set to date for stats hand down. I am still frustrated by the itemization more then anything cause it doesnt seem like blizz can get it right if it meant saving the world. I am using swords now and still using a lvl 60 fist from Naxx since I havent even been able to get a good OH to match my MH. I dont like PVP at all so the arena weapons wont happen for me.


The whole attunemnt and key crap as been nothing but a cockblock for guilds so Blizz can continue working on content that was released too early. Heroics are a joke I play the game to raid not do 5 man bullsh!t instances that do nothing but take hours on end due to poor design for certain melee classes. The xpack has been out since Jan and the raid scene in WoW has been destroyed big time, I see alot of guild breaking up and people transfering servers just to find good raiding guilds. Sorry for getting off track about 40 man raids here a bit, but its WoW and anytime I can vent about things that need fixing helps reduce my stress lvl.


IMHO Kara should of been 15 and 40 man should of been 30, heroics can stay 5 man but need tuning which is happening in the next patch.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: C42
Nope, meant less room for error. If one person goes afk at the wrong time, casts the wrong spell, misses a heal etc- its going to be felt more in the raid. Also going to be harder to recover from. In BWL if one healer went OOM, playing alliance we had time to let a paladin's blessing of light + healer wanding to get mana back until his pot timer was up etc. In Kara if a healer goes OOM, I'd imagine you are going to lose someone or wipe (Not sure I hit 61 and gave up with WoW).

Ahh yes, my bad. For some reason my mind mussed up the phrase more/less room for error .

Originally posted by: WaTaGuMp
IMHO Kara should of been 15 and 40 man should of been 30, heroics can stay 5 man but need tuning which is happening in the next patch.

I think what you show is that the current system lacks a proper ratio when it comes to stepping up into content. 25 people fitting into groups of 10 leaves 5 out... 30 fitting into groups of 15 leaves 0 out. I think the way things work in a 10 man is nice, you end up with 2 tanks so you have to be precise in your actions.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: C42
Nope, meant less room for error. If one person goes afk at the wrong time, casts the wrong spell, misses a heal etc- its going to be felt more in the raid. Also going to be harder to recover from. In BWL if one healer went OOM, playing alliance we had time to let a paladin's blessing of light + healer wanding to get mana back until his pot timer was up etc. In Kara if a healer goes OOM, I'd imagine you are going to lose someone or wipe (Not sure I hit 61 and gave up with WoW).

Ahh yes, my bad. For some reason my mind mussed up the phrase more/less room for error .

Originally posted by: WaTaGuMp
IMHO Kara should of been 15 and 40 man should of been 30, heroics can stay 5 man but need tuning which is happening in the next patch.

I think what you show is that the current system lacks a proper ratio when it comes to stepping up into content. 25 people fitting into groups of 10 leaves 5 out... 30 fitting into groups of 15 leaves 0 out. I think the way things work in a 10 man is nice, you end up with 2 tanks so you have to be precise in your actions.

The reason I would of preffered the larger amounts for the 10-25 person grps is it was way easier for larger guilds that built around 40 person raids to run 2 grps for kara instead of trying to make 3. Instead we had to sit people out due to lack of class balance to make the instances doable in a decent amount of time. Things like Gruuls lair etc could also of been done faster in regards to getting people attuned, but since its set up for 25 man it just means more times going back. The smaller runs have also created cliques which is not a good thing for large guilds trying to get everyone at the same lvl to further progress into higher content. I think blizz took a look at the players base and noticed raiders arent the majority so they designed the content for the more casual player, which from a business standpoint fits for them.

 

[Kur]

The worst mistake blizzard made was making 40 man raids before doing waht BC did with more 5 man, 10 man, and 25 man's. Going from 40 man to 25 man SUCKS. My brothers guild fell apart because there was so much "this team is better, that team sucks so u go there" and all that stupid crap. I enjoyed doing 40 mans because it was if I needed to afk for a few minutes I could without having the whole raid wait for me, now I have to sit my ass down for a few hours every time a raid and not even blink or the raid will wipe.

I would love to see 40 mans come back but all we will hear is how bad casuals have it and that they will never get that gear. That's the reason 40 mans no longer exist is to blizzard giving into the people who cry the loudest, seems to be the trend for WoW now.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: Xylitol
I'm probably going to miss the 40 man raids that Blizzard made. Although they were really frustrating, looking back, you're going to miss the sheer number of people helping on these raids.

A 25 man raid for Black Temple, the "hardest raid," seems really pathetic.
Anyone else feel this way?

Also, the Outlands raids seem a lot "tamer" than the original raids + There isn't going to be an event (like the AQ war effort) when Black Temple releases.

Why would it be pathetic? Level of difficulty for the average raid member should stay the same if they code it correctly.

 

[TallBill]

WoW is a kiddy version of an mmorpg anyways. Like Kur said, users cry so they make things easier or whatever. Anyways, 40 is way to many for a PVE raid. PVP should be unlimited. Then again PVP in WoW is mostly retarded with no real world purpose.

In Shadowbane and Star Wars Galaxies (pre-suck days) you actually had buildings to destroy or defend, which gathered hundreds of players split into random sized controlled elements. Real leadership and tactics came out as a result, instead of just two GM's controlling every move of a 40 man group.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: TallBill
WoW is a kiddy version of an mmorpg anyways. Like Kur said, users cry so they make things easier or whatever. Anyways, 40 is way to many for a PVE raid. PVP should be unlimited. Then again PVP in WoW is mostly retarded with no real world purpose.

Have you ever end-game WoW to know if it's really kiddy or not?

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: TallBill
WoW is a kiddy version of an mmorpg anyways. Like Kur said, users cry so they make things easier or whatever. Anyways, 40 is way to many for a PVE raid. PVP should be unlimited. Then again PVP in WoW is mostly retarded with no real world purpose.

Have you ever end-game WoW to know if it's really kiddy or not?

He's right. Unfortunately there's really not much else out there.

 

[Anubis]

the main reason the went to 25 mains is because they wanted more of their player base to experience the full extent of the game, as its easier to get 25 people together rather then 40. Theoretically. however its totally backfired IMO, for those guilds that could do AQ and naxx pre BC, it became a logistic nightmare having to downsize, luckily our guild didn?t have this issue as when TBC came out a number of people either stopped playing or xfered to be with fam/friends,

Kara IMO is too long for a 10 man, and pugging it is not really going to happen, on bloodhoof i don?t think ive ever seen a LFG kara, if you aren?t in a guild you aren?t running it, its also not that easy, i don?t foresee "casuals" clearing the instance, fights like curator, prince and netherspite take a bit of coordination and teamwork, being a 10 man is fine, we used to run 3 groups in it like many guilds, I just think its too long and there is too much trash, especially between curator and shade

Originally the first 25 man encounter (Gruul) was nearly impossible, so they nerfed him a lot, and now hes cake, the 2nd Magtheridon is still a major PITA and in its current state will be impossible for anyone other then a pretty decent raiding guild,

SSC is a whole nother game, as someone on the WOW forums said, blizzard made all this new content that no one other then the top guilds will ever see, Hydross still stops many serious guilds and is something casuals will never see downed unless its changed dramatically

Heroic 5 mans were a good idea that was implemented badly, as some of them are still harder then they need be, and are too luck based, as trash mobs shouldn?t hit harder then a 25 man raid boss, apparently this is being fixed in the next patch

And PVP got better with the arena, it gave those that just wanted to PVP something legit to do that gave PVP based rewards, world PVP still happens, people raid towns now that DHKs are gone

 

[Acanthus]

I still contend that wow needs open RvR combat zones like DAOC did.

The relic and keep system was the best pvp motivator ever, hands down.

 

[SniperWulf]

Heh, funny you should mention this. I think this is where Blizzard scewed up big time. Funneling large guilds and casual players through a pretty tough 10-man is what has made alotta people cancel their accounts. Because of this, the "elite" teams were the only ones allowed to go, and everyone else was left to fend for themselves. This, IMHO, caused the biggest divide in the social structure of wow and has caused many people (including myself and about 15 of my friends and family) to cancel their accounts. Its like if you weren't in the clique, you couldn't get help with anything unless they wanted you to substitute in for someone, or they needed your DPS or healing just to serve the clique's purposes...

 

[Modeps]

Originally posted by: DannyLove
40??? LOL
That's nothing. Oh man, I recall these massive hundreds of people storming Sidi or dragon raids or DF back in my DAoC days.... ah memories.

While I cant say I was a part of the Dragon raids, I loved hitting DF with a huge raid. Kinda chaotic but fun all around.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Modeps

Originally posted by: DannyLove
40??? LOL
That's nothing. Oh man, I recall these massive hundreds of people storming Sidi or dragon raids or DF back in my DAoC days.... ah memories.

While I cant say I was a part of the Dragon raids, I loved hitting DF with a huge raid. Kinda chaotic but fun all around.

There once was a machine called Everquest. I hear it was run on the blood of raiders. Not worth bragging about, honestly enough.

WoW gets credit for trying to meet that happy medium, even if sometimes it backfires on them.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: CKent
He's right. Unfortunately there's really not much else out there.

I don't see WoW as kiddy, but I also don't see it as extreme. The game thrives because it takes the middle-ground stance in practically every aspect.

EDIT: typo

 

[bcterps]

Raid content right now sucks. Kara is easy, which is fine, and if you can clear Kara, Maulgar/Gruul are pretty easy as well. Magtheridon is a bitch though, and is getting a bit nerf in the 2.1 patch. The trash pulls are just painful and they are on a 1 hour respawn. You could go to SSC, but it's such a pain to get attuned to. The middle of the road guilds (3 days raiding per week) are struggling to progress right now because of the lack of end game raiding content. I think WoW is really going downhill at this point, a common sentiment echoed by many others that I know.

 

[BZeto]

I'm just happy about the potion/elixir/flask changes coming next patch, along with the boss retuning. Raiding is somewhat enjoyable, farming hours to raid isnt.

My guild killed Magtheridon last week for the first time, the fight is amazing and I was happy to be a part of our first kill. It just sucks some bosses are tuned to the point where almost the entire raid needs a flask in order to kill it.