World Of Warcraft

[Valrandir]

Since you see WoW that way, surely you will find what you seek from a MMORPG in EvE-Online.

Persistent world, no instancing, one server for everyone, and massive interaction with other players.

http://www.eve-online.com/
You can get a 14days free trial at www.mmorpg.com

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: RBachman
HeroOfPellinor - I still think you're missing the point. Even if PvP were done with honor and by people older than 12 - I still wouldn't like it. The way you talk about it, it's obvious you have a great affinity for it. There's nothing wrong with that, we should all play as we see fit. But it's not my cup of tea, nor is it for many, many other people.

And I think you're missing the point. This genre is called massively multiplayer.

Ask yourself why you have chosen to play a massively multiplayer game? To join with up to 7 other players to do a routine instanced mission? What do those 7 other players do for your experience that well scripted bots couldn't do practically as well?

I'ts occurring to me that the main reason for the wild success of WoW is that perhaps those playing it think it's just a Warcraft RPG. Maybe people don't even know they're playing an MMORPG and think it's just an RPG because that is, in fact, what they're doing....playing an single player RPG with a bunch of other people around.

The only reason for playing or developing an MMORPG is to see WTF 3,000 people, given fantastic surroundings and stripped of their real world veneers, are going to do to each other. And for them to do ANYTHING but /emote dance or /LFG you need to give them freedom. The beauty and the mayhem that ensues is the ONE unique thing this genre has to offer and yet you people are happy to have it stripped from the game as much as possible. PvP is merely the antagonist to keep things moving along.

Hero I think you are missing why a lot of people enjoy the simplified RPGs. Not everyone has the time to sit down for hours building up skill, slamming down the doors to a keep in search of weaponary. Some people like to jump in for a half hour to an hour bust up some goons for fun, gank a guy or two while doing it and do something else. For the longest time I had given up on RPG's and played strictly FPS's. Sure the complete openendedness may not be there, but it allows people to jump in and focus on a quick task or two. The instant gratification is in most "MMO's". It's the same thing between people who read a book, or watch the movie. So appreciate the full fledged experience, and others just want the quick and dirty CGI laden plot tossed at them. Games are really no different.

For WoW the quest system is actually very good. Sure it can get monotonous, but it allows people to provide an easy incentive for help that they might not otherwise get. Example,

Player 1: "Help I need assistance fighting Blue Dragon 1234!!!111^h"

Player 2: "Can you share that quest?"

Player 1: "Yeah."

Player 2: "Ok, send an invite."

Now this highlights the fact that two people without prior contact, or any roleplayer aspect can easily team up for a tough task. Both players are pratically guaranteed a decent reward. How is this a bad thing? Linear sure, but it's a mechanism to get people who are foreign to the ideas behind the MMO to get into "character" so to speak.

On the other hand, I really don't know how XP grinding or Skill Grinding can't be equated. Both require you to do the same actions repeatedly. As for me, the OU skill grinding was an odd concept. Sure you aren't as good with a particular skill if you don't use it, maybe. I don't agree that the skill levels should drop, that's just another feeding the beast concept. When I think about progress, I appreciate defined goals. Marks of how far I've come and how far I have to go to attain certain things. There's always a give a take to any RPG. Personally I would like it if they got rid of penaties for grouping myself. They would just have to make certain group areas more difficult, but that in itself is where the real fun of RPGs is, the risk versus reward system.

They need systems that scale difficulty based on levels or skills a player group possess. Allowing 60s in dungeons meant for 20-40s defeats the purpose of having a group instance. I wouldn't want to restrict 60s from helping others, but the enemy should be smart. Say a level 30 enemy spies a 60 player, he runs to get reinforcements. I know I would... 😉

MMOs have a lot of room to grow before they can really compare with P&P RPGs, but they are by all means still fun to play.

 

[skace]

I think it is funny that Hero knocks the number of people you group up with in WoW when he likes to bring UO up so much. UO was a game for loners, PKs pretty much solod or went around in small groups. Blacksmiths, lumberjacks, most classes were built off a solo environment. Bard's could solo most dungeons. UO was a loners and a griefers paradise, that is what it is known for. The PvP available in the game benefitted the minority while giving the majority a headache and causing them to quit. This doesn't mean UO didn't have some amazing concepts, but these aspects were deffinitely not them. People love to talk about UO's PvP, but none of them actually want to be on the recieving side of it, where you'd lose a days or possibly a weeks worth a work in a few seconds.

And let's talk about the massively multiplayer aspect of WoW. The combat through battlegrounds in WoW is far more fleshed out than it ever was in UO. You never had the kind of organized combat you have in battlegrounds anywhere in UO except with a few faction battles. I don't even need to mention raids and social settings, where even the banks in UO could not compete to the sheer number of people in orgrimmar or ironforge on a regular day. Hell, EQ bazaar doesn't even compete with IF.

The one area where UO completely dominates is in real world impact via tradeskills and housing. This is an impact in MMORPGs that, to this day, still hasn't been replicated. Shadowbane tried and failed miserably. Most recent MMORPGs have had instanced housing, which also is not the answer. Housing became a major problem in UO due to overcrowding and disabled house rot, but if anyone overcame that issue, they had the perfect setup for a world that actually felt like it grew.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: RBachman
HeroOfPellinor - I still think you're missing the point. Even if PvP were done with honor and by people older than 12 - I still wouldn't like it. The way you talk about it, it's obvious you have a great affinity for it. There's nothing wrong with that, we should all play as we see fit. But it's not my cup of tea, nor is it for many, many other people.

And I think you're missing the point. This genre is called massively multiplayer.

Ask yourself why you have chosen to play a massively multiplayer game? To join with up to 7 other players to do a routine instanced mission? What do those 7 other players do for your experience that well scripted bots couldn't do practically as well?

Actually it's up to 40 in WoW. What they offer that scripted bots don't is social interaction - same as PvP. The argument goes both ways - it boils down to what you enjoy. I'm of the mindset that we should all play as we see fit, whether we enjoy PvP or PvE - why are you unable to extend others the same courtesy? PvP has a bit of a stigma among certain circles, and you're not helping it...

Oh, I love PvE too. I did it 95% of the time in UO if not more. But it was always under the umbrella of PvP. You'd recall into a dungeon and be PvEing away and most of the time nothing would happen, but sometimes a PK might come along and you'd teleport away or take him on or a little of both. 🙂

I pretty much agree with you on WoW and the current state of MMORPGs in general though; we're both on the fringe of the target demographic (albeit on different sides of said fringe), and so are unlikely to enjoy any future games, which will generally be targeted at the largest playerbase segment - the young casual player.

Trust me, I think mostly PvP-centric games like Lineage 2 and Shadowbane are similarly flawed, but they got the point of MMORPG moreso than WoW.

 

[TGS]

I thought SW Galaxies finally got around to player built cities? That was an interesting concept, but I didn't like anything else.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: skace
I think it is funny that Hero knocks the number of people you group up with in WoW when he likes to bring UO up so much. UO was a game for loners, PKs pretty much solod or went around in small groups. Blacksmiths, lumberjacks, most classes were built off a solo environment. Bard's could solo most dungeons. UO was a loners and a griefers paradise, that is what it is known for. The PvP available in the game benefitted the minority while giving the majority a headache and causing them to quit. This doesn't mean UO didn't have some amazing concepts, but these aspects were deffinitely not them. People love to talk about UO's PvP, but none of them actually want to be on the recieving side of it, where you'd lose a days or possibly a weeks worth a work in a few seconds.

🙂 Of course, PvE fights were largely solo, but you essentially solo'd along side other players. Sure beats being put in a box and told to "JUST HEAL!" or "PULL!", eh?

And I'm not talking just about how many people you can fit on screen or group with. In WoW, since that's all the game is--a Group&Level factory, it's a valid criticism. In UO, some guy you never met not will ever meet can radically influence the game for you. The head of a PK guild who marks your guild as a target. The crafter who's affordable arrows keep you well supplied. The guy who drove the PKs out of the dungeon and then left a few seconds before you arrived.

And let's talk about the massively multiplayer aspect of WoW. The combat through battlegrounds in WoW is far more fleshed out than it ever was in UO.

Uh, ya, UO was isometric so you could fit all of a few dozen people on screen. And, no, the combat in UO was sublime for the longest time. Even today, anybody who PvPs in any game will compare it to how UO was when skills really mattered. Heck, even DAoC's PvP combat was more "fleshed out" on release than WoW has ever been.

The one area where UO completely dominates is in real world impact via tradeskills and housing. This is an impact in MMORPGs that, to this day, still hasn't been replicated. Shadowbane tried and failed miserably. Most recent MMORPGs have had instanced housing, which also is not the answer. Housing became a major problem in UO due to overcrowding and disabled house rot, but if anyone overcame that issue, they had the perfect setup for a world that actually felt like it grew.

Impacting the world around you? So it's GOOD when it's houses and crafting, but BAD when it involves combat?

 

[Stretchman]

Having never played any other MMO other than WoW (and a bit of EQ2), I can't speak to the argument that WoW is not a true MMO. What I can say is that I've had a damn good time with the game, and met a lot of nice, like-minded people who i've had fun adventuring with.

All semantics aside, isn't that what's its about in the end?

 

[TGS]

One of my chief complaints with most MMOs, is the sake of grouping/guilding to group/guild. There are no player driven cities, no room to grow. For CoH they are coming up with bases, sure that's fine and dandy but it will be just like EQ if they use pre-existing space defined in the game. That's what interested me about OU, players making their own little niche in the game. Though it's more of a quality of life issue within the game, and not really neccesary. It just seems like an odd concept to not have growth permitted within the game.

Strangely enough many years(circa 1996) ago I fleshed out an idea for the perfect MMO. A Star Wars based MMO, where you combined all the great ideas of the games into a persistant universe. The FPS nature of Jedi Knight, the Flight Sim portion from X-wing versus Tie Fighter, and the C&C aspect of the Turn based game that now escapes me (it wasn't terrible per say, just needed some refining). The thing is this, with any persistant world changes should be permanent. In my SW game, You could do it all, in a very privateer like fashion. More or less how the current SW galaxies is now, but some major changes to the flight sim and command and control overview for the upper echelon.

The main key that I thought would be fantastic, would be the eventually absorbtion of all aspects of the game would be taken over by players. No scripted events, just plain old power hungry players taking what they believe is theirs. My vision would be for players to rise in the ranks(say Imperials) gain control of a Star Destroyer, and eventually command entire fleets. Now if they are handed orders from above they have full control of all the resources, and how to use them. If the players become loyal to the commander and he decides to defect, and head to the Rebels would they follow him. Could he turn against the Empire and Rebels, becoming his own warlord and start to conquer his own little part of the galaxy? Would other players be spies to subvert these types of actions, could he take over the government and start a new age of his own law. The universe exists for the player, why not give them the reins and see what they do?

After the game has been out for a while, the entire environment should be 100% player driven. People talk of content, and I laugh. That's a new area with some new enemy models. But what happens in the major cities? A raid attempt? Big whoop, everyone respawns after a while. Now if say the Horde could take over the city, and the Alliance would have to stage a major offensive to reclaim it, Ahhh there lies a challenge. There is no real content unless the players eventually become the game. This also works for the casual player, because they can do the things the hardcore players want to get done.

I know that SW Galaxies has a lot of what I want in a game, but certain mechanics within it are just not right. The focus on being a jedi, combat silliness, at least early crafting... I played beta for a while and never really got past it much.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: skace
I think it is funny that Hero knocks the number of people you group up with in WoW when he likes to bring UO up so much. UO was a game for loners, PKs pretty much solod or went around in small groups. Blacksmiths, lumberjacks, most classes were built off a solo environment. Bard's could solo most dungeons. UO was a loners and a griefers paradise, that is what it is known for. The PvP available in the game benefitted the minority while giving the majority a headache and causing them to quit. This doesn't mean UO didn't have some amazing concepts, but these aspects were deffinitely not them. People love to talk about UO's PvP, but none of them actually want to be on the recieving side of it, where you'd lose a days or possibly a weeks worth a work in a few seconds.

🙂 Of course, PvE fights were largely solo, but you essentially solo'd along side other players. Sure beats being put in a box and told to "JUST HEAL!" or "PULL!", eh?

And I'm not talking just about how many people you can fit on screen or group with. In WoW, since that's all the game is--a Group&Level factory, it's a valid criticism. In UO, some guy you never met not will ever meet can radically influence the game for you. The head of a PK guild who marks your guild as a target. The crafter who's affordable arrows keep you well supplied. The guy who drove the PKs out of the dungeon and then left a few seconds before you arrived.

And let's talk about the massively multiplayer aspect of WoW. The combat through battlegrounds in WoW is far more fleshed out than it ever was in UO.

Uh, ya, UO was isometric so you could fit all of a few dozen people on screen. And, no, the combat in UO was sublime for the longest time. Even today, anybody who PvPs in any game will compare it to how UO was when skills really mattered. Heck, even DAoC's PvP combat was more "fleshed out" on release than WoW has ever been.

The one area where UO completely dominates is in real world impact via tradeskills and housing. This is an impact in MMORPGs that, to this day, still hasn't been replicated. Shadowbane tried and failed miserably. Most recent MMORPGs have had instanced housing, which also is not the answer. Housing became a major problem in UO due to overcrowding and disabled house rot, but if anyone overcame that issue, they had the perfect setup for a world that actually felt like it grew.

Impacting the world around you? So it's GOOD when it's houses and crafting, but BAD when it involves combat?

DAOC's combat was weak and pathetic, it still is. Horrible, pathetic, crappy game. I played for 3 years and had 6, L50's... Again, the game was weak on the combat side of it. WoW is much more fluent and so in guild wars. DAOC was never balanced and a class diversity was non existant. DAOC was a pathetic game of imbalance and clone classes. DAOC was my first MMO and I have no regard for it, not once I tried 5 others. DAOC is crap.

Ok, now that I have that said, I have to strongly dissagree with being in a world where a PK boss "targets" your guild... Right, the last thing I need is someone to harrass me in a game? In real life I do not want a stalker and certainly not in a game. They are anoying. The only times I wish PVP was open is when someone begs me for money and cannot spell correctly, then I would love to whip out my 2H and kill them, then loot what they have. Right, that is my bad side, but that is because beggers and people who shorten every word known to man with bad spelling bug me. Ok, yes, I know that is wrong of me, but oh well.

But basically from what I am hearing is that you want "Anarchy" in an MMO. That is something I do not want. Again, the game of life is real enough for me that an actual game should be fun and stress free. It should releave stress... Not bring it on when people corpse camp or have you as a sole target.

 

[TGS]

I agree with that as well, how do you balance player interaction with just having fun? I know with WoW I'm on a PvP server, and for the most part I enjoy the contested areas. Never know when you might pickup a few HKs. 😉 Though for me I don't go after lower targets than my level, unless they attack, or if they have a ranking. Though in the later case I just attack them to around 4-50% to give them the message they are not welcome in the area with a title. I expect the same from other players, but most times it just becomes a +5 of my current level gank fest. I get lots of people trying to kill me on priest status, so I went all offensive with shadow and engineering. As long as it's not a 2 on 1, I can handle several levels above me, and I do enjoy the challenge. Call me a glutton for punishment.

Though my friend really hates it. He detests PvP and tells me every chance he gets. He really enjoys the battlegrounds though. I think the rationale behind it all is, when he's in PvE mode he doesn't want to be ganked or have to be distracted from doing his thing, and vice versa. He really never initiates combat unless he's attacked. I tend to like be a bit more aggresive, IE if I see horde and they don't wave to me, and they are flagged It's game on for all I'm concerned.

It just kinda shows you that even though we have different intentions on how to play, the overall environment when we are teamed up suits both of our tastes.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: TGS
I agree with that as well, how do you balance player interaction with just having fun? I know with WoW I'm on a PvP server, and for the most part I enjoy the contested areas. Never know when you might pickup a few HKs. 😉 Though for me I don't go after lower targets than my level, unless they attack, or if they have a ranking. Though in the later case I just attack them to around 4-50% to give them the message they are not welcome in the area with a title. I expect the same from other players, but most times it just becomes a +5 of my current level gank fest. I get lots of people trying to kill me on priest status, so I went all offensive with shadow and engineering. As long as it's not a 2 on 1, I can handle several levels above me, and I do enjoy the challenge. Call me a glutton for punishment.

Though my friend really hates it. He detests PvP and tells me every chance he gets. He really enjoys the battlegrounds though. I think the rationale behind it all is, when he's in PvE mode he doesn't want to be ganked or have to be distracted from doing his thing, and vice versa. He really never initiates combat unless he's attacked. I tend to like be a bit more aggresive, IE if I see horde and they don't wave to me, and they are flagged It's game on for all I'm concerned.

It just kinda shows you that even though we have different intentions on how to play, the overall environment when we are teamed up suits both of our tastes.

Very true... I share that opinion with your friend. When I am trying to level, I do not want to have to watch my back. Does it get more involved if I do? Yes, it does, and that is cool! But, the reason I guess I prefer PVE, and controlled PVP environments is to stop the gankers. In the BG's everything is decently fair. Meaning, you will not have 15 versus 3 in most situations.

The nice thing about PVP WoW is that every class can be good at PVP. Not to mention that player skill determines much of the outcome. For instance, most rogues will be able to beat down a priest at 60... However, that is without factoring in the human skill. Once that comes in, the match can go either way. I have beaten a lot of rogues, and been beaten by a lot... Even though the class is designed to kill me, along with others, I can stand a chance by using some brains and skills and reflexes. With a bit of luck, I can easily win. With his luck, he can destroy me too.

That is what I love about WoW PvP, anyone has a chance and there doesn't seem to be an "I win" button, except possibly in the case of a shaman 😛

 

[TGS]

Well of all the classes, I've only fought 2 shaman. Being that I'm foriegn to the concept of the totems, and what powers they provide I got the one shaman down to around 500hp before he hit me with a triple crit windfury (ouchies). Had I knocked his grounding totem I feel I would have won.

I appreciate the fact that prior planning really goes a long way in WoW. For instance, I'm an engineer so I make some nice disorienting bombs. Heading up to the Scarlet Monastary we happen upon a gang of horde flagged and sitting in front of the doors. Our party ducks into a portal, and tries to wait it out while some 60 alliance try to duke it out. We wait about a minute and try to head to our door. A nice mob of horde are waiting by the door, so I lob a high explosive at the nearest 10 guys and bam 10 guys stunned. A warrior is kind enough to open the door from the other side, and we all scoot into the instance. I think I pissed off a lot of hungry horde that time.

Oh and someone, tell me that windfury is dispellable... please? 😉

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: TGS
Well of all the classes, I've only fought 2 shaman. Being that I'm foriegn to the concept of the totems, and what powers they provide I got the one shaman down to around 500hp before he hit me with a triple crit windfury (ouchies). Had I knocked his grounding totem I feel I would have won.

I appreciate the fact that prior planning really goes a long way in WoW. For instance, I'm an engineer so I make some nice disorienting bombs. Heading up to the Scarlet Monastary we happen upon a gang of horde flagged and sitting in front of the doors. Our party ducks into a portal, and tries to wait it out while some 60 alliance try to duke it out. We wait about a minute and try to head to our door. A nice mob of horde are waiting by the door, so I lob a high explosive at the nearest 10 guys and bam 10 guys stunned. A warrior is kind enough to open the door from the other side, and we all scoot into the instance. I think I pissed off a lot of hungry horde that time.

Oh and someone, tell me that windfury is dispellable... please? 😉

I am not sure if it is... Luckily I do not have to fight Shamans on my server, since I am playing the horde side /flex.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
DAOC's combat was weak and pathetic, it still is. Horrible, pathetic, crappy game.

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
I played for 3 years and had 6, L50's...

🙂 🙂 🙂

DAOC was a pathetic game of imbalance and clone classes.

If there's on thing DAoC utterly nailed it was the uniqueness of every single class. They all were distinct and there were something like 30+ classes.

And while I thought the PvP was pretty lousy too, it's still worlds better than WoW because it has a point or at least made a half-hearted atempt at giving it a point with taking keeps and opening up DF and inherent bonuses from the artifacts.

Ok, now that I have that said, I have to strongly dissagree with being in a world where a PK boss "targets" your guild... Right, the last thing I need is someone to harrass me in a game? In real life I do not want a stalker and certainly not in a game. They are anoying. The only times I wish PVP was open is when someone begs me for money and cannot spell correctly, then I would love to whip out my 2H and kill them, then loot what they have. Right, that is my bad side, but that is because beggers and people who shorten every word known to man with bad spelling bug me. Ok, yes, I know that is wrong of me, but oh well.

Wow, you sure read into that one sentence. The worst case scenario is that when a member of that guild sees a member of your guild they'll attack. And that chance crossing of paths will occur once every few days if you're lucky, so, uh, it's not quite the same as having a stalker harass you every moment in the game. 🙂 :roll: Besides, guild wars last weeks or sometimes months and there's usually a political resolution and some guild members don't bother partaking anyway and blah blah. It's actually pretty fascinating.

But basically from what I am hearing is that you want "Anarchy" in an MMO.

Then you aren't hearing very well.

That is something I do not want. Again, the game of life is real enough for me that an actual game should be fun and stress free. It should releave stress... Not bring it on when people corpse camp or have you as a sole target.

You want stress relief? There's a million and half ways to get that. $1.50 for one of those squeezy dolls at Target would do fine. Maybe a nice game of BF2, or BG2, or some Katamari. Why do you want to ruin the uniqueness of MMORPGs when you have so many other outlets?

I want to play a massively multiplayer online role play game. I want everything that comes with something involving players in roles in massive amounts. I want anarchy, yes, but also order and I want to dance around between them. The thing lacking from most our human lives more than "stress relief" is adventure and excitement and outlets for creativity. Games aren't exactly the best venue for these, but when you can add them to a game it makes them that much more worthwhile.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
DAOC's combat was weak and pathetic, it still is. Horrible, pathetic, crappy game.

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
I played for 3 years and had 6, L50's...

🙂 🙂 🙂

DAOC was a pathetic game of imbalance and clone classes.

If there's on thing DAoC utterly nailed it was the uniqueness of every single class. They all were distinct and there were something like 30+ classes.

And while I thought the PvP was pretty lousy too, it's still worlds better than WoW because it has a point or at least made a half-hearted atempt at giving it a point with taking keeps and opening up DF and inherent bonuses from the artifacts.

Ok, now that I have that said, I have to strongly dissagree with being in a world where a PK boss "targets" your guild... Right, the last thing I need is someone to harrass me in a game? In real life I do not want a stalker and certainly not in a game. They are anoying. The only times I wish PVP was open is when someone begs me for money and cannot spell correctly, then I would love to whip out my 2H and kill them, then loot what they have. Right, that is my bad side, but that is because beggers and people who shorten every word known to man with bad spelling bug me. Ok, yes, I know that is wrong of me, but oh well.

Wow, you sure read into that one sentence. The worst case scenario is that when a member of that guild sees a member of your guild they'll attack. And that chance crossing of paths will occur once every few days if you're lucky, so, uh, it's not quite the same as having a stalker harass you every moment in the game. 🙂 :roll: Besides, guild wars last weeks or sometimes months and there's usually a political resolution and some guild members don't bother partaking anyway and blah blah. It's actually pretty fascinating.

But basically from what I am hearing is that you want "Anarchy" in an MMO.

Then you aren't hearing very well.

That is something I do not want. Again, the game of life is real enough for me that an actual game should be fun and stress free. It should releave stress... Not bring it on when people corpse camp or have you as a sole target.

You want stress relief? There's a million and half ways to get that. $1.50 for one of those squeezy dolls at Target would do fine. Maybe a nice game of BF2, or BG2, or some Katamari. Why do you want to ruin the uniqueness of MMORPGs when you have so many other outlets?

I want to play a massively multiplayer online role play game. I want everything that comes with something involving players in roles in massive amounts. I want anarchy, yes, but also order and I want to dance around between them. The thing lacking from most our human lives more than "stress relief" is adventure and excitement and outlets for creativity. Games aren't exactly the best venue for these, but when you can add them to a game it makes them that much more worthwhile.

The reason I played DAOC for so long is that I didn't try anything else. Once I did, I realized how horrible it was.

 

[deepred98]

maybe just me but i don't think i'd be willing to pay a monthly fee to build up an character

don't know about you guys but i really don't have that kind of time to spare

my friend plays WoW and he is level 60, but he spent his entire friggin summer doing it and that for me is just insane

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: deepred98
maybe just me but i don't think i'd be willing to pay a monthly fee to build up an character

don't know about you guys but i really don't have that kind of time to spare

my friend plays WoW and he is level 60, but he spent his entire friggin summer doing it and that for me is just insane

There've been many threads here featuring the monthly fee debate, this really isn't the place for it. Suffice to say, if you pay a monthly fee for cable or satellite TV, then... Lol 🙂

 

[TheVrolok]

Crap.

 

[Nebben]

Originally posted by: deepred98
maybe just me but i don't think i'd be willing to pay a monthly fee to build up an character

don't know about you guys but i really don't have that kind of time to spare

my friend plays WoW and he is level 60, but he spent his entire friggin summer doing it and that for me is just insane

Then you should stay far away from MMORPGs.

World of Warcraft is the EASIEST game of its type to level in that I know of. I went from buying the game to level 60 in less than 2 months, and I was not playing nearly as many hours as I did in my EQ days.

I had similar feelings to others in this thread at first -- that this game was all hype and gloss -- until I hit 60. This game begins at level 60. If you don't like that, perhaps another game is better for you.

PvP is very enjoyable and is improving all the time. Endgame raiding requires skill and effort, but also doesn't require you to devote your entire life to it like Everquest did. You can do endgame raiding on weeknights, easily.

There are a few things that I dislike, but this is definitely the most enjoyable game I've ever played in this category.

 

[Genx87]

AOC's combat was weak and pathetic, it still is. Horrible, pathetic, crappy game. I played for 3 years and had 6, L50's... Again, the game was weak on the combat side of it. WoW is much more fluent and so in guild wars. DAOC was never balanced and a class diversity was non existant. DAOC was a pathetic game of imbalance and clone classes. DAOC was my first MMO and I have no regard for it, not once I tried 5 others. DAOC is crap.

Waaa? DAOCs class diversity is head and shoulders above anything WoW has. Each class had a defined role within the game with unique abilities. What is the difference between a DW, 2H, 1H + Shield warrior? Nothing, just switch the weapons with a macro.

Try that with any of the fighter classes within daoc. You cant, because there were upwards of 3 seperate fighting classes that specialized in those unique abilities. What is a hybrid in WoW? Paladin and Shaman? Boring!

Combat in daoc is much more evolved and better put together with classes that have defined roles than in WoW. On top of that it isnt a giant mexican standoff because the class diversity allowed for actions to be done to break the stalemate. Something WoW seriously lacks.

 

[Velk]

Originally posted by: Genx87

AOC's combat was weak and pathetic, it still is. Horrible, pathetic, crappy game. I played for 3 years and had 6, L50's... Again, the game was weak on the combat side of it. WoW is much more fluent and so in guild wars. DAOC was never balanced and a class diversity was non existant. DAOC was a pathetic game of imbalance and clone classes. DAOC was my first MMO and I have no regard for it, not once I tried 5 others. DAOC is crap.

Waaa? DAOCs class diversity is head and shoulders above anything WoW has. Each class had a defined role within the game with unique abilities. What is the difference between a DW, 2H, 1H + Shield warrior? Nothing, just switch the weapons with a macro.

Try that with any of the fighter classes within daoc. You cant, because there were upwards of 3 seperate fighting classes that specialized in those unique abilities. What is a hybrid in WoW? Paladin and Shaman? Boring!

Combat in daoc is much more evolved and better put together with classes that have defined roles than in WoW. On top of that it isnt a giant mexican standoff because the class diversity allowed for actions to be done to break the stalemate. Something WoW seriously lacks.

Having played both an albion armsman and a horde warrior, I can't help but feel that your post is not based off extensive research. Starting from the suggestion that there is no difference between a DW/2H or 1H+S warrior, which is technically true but at the same time, in the context of arms/fury/protection warriors, entirely the wrong question.

Class diversity is also probably the wrong term to use - the differences between armsmen and warriors in daoc are so small as to be cosmetic compared to the differences between warriors and shamans in WoW. Perhaps you mean number of classes ?

Combat being involved(I assume?) is somewhat of a subjective matter, if mass mesmerise etc does it for you then that's fine, I am certainly not going to argue.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
🙂 Of course, PvE fights were largely solo, but you essentially solo'd along side other players. Sure beats being put in a box and told to "JUST HEAL!" or "PULL!", eh?

Depends. It may be better than "just heal" or "pull" but when you move away from those things (also referred to as class dependencies) you trivialize content. Although, I would argue that a system where you needed pullers and healers, but leveling was based on UO's skill system would be optimal. To this day, no one has attempted it.

And I'm not talking just about how many people you can fit on screen or group with. In WoW, since that's all the game is--a Group&Level factory, it's a valid criticism. In UO, some guy you never met not will ever meet can radically influence the game for you. The head of a PK guild who marks your guild as a target. The crafter who's affordable arrows keep you well supplied. The guy who drove the PKs out of the dungeon and then left a few seconds before you arrived.

These exact things occured in WoW for me as well, at least, before battlegrounds and before level 60 which basically changed large portions of the game for me. While leveling up, there were many strategic places guilds would try to take over. Such as the entrance to dungeons or flightpaths. Unfortunately, WoW lacked the possibility of one group running into PK's in the middle of a dungeon but this also allowed them to make the dungeons much more challenging.

Uh, ya, UO was isometric so you could fit all of a few dozen people on screen. And, no, the combat in UO was sublime for the longest time. Even today, anybody who PvPs in any game will compare it to how UO was when skills really mattered. Heck, even DAoC's PvP combat was more "fleshed out" on release than WoW has ever been.

I don't just mean because of UO's isometric view. I mean the sheer number of people in WoW social environments is epic. You should be able to acknowledge that. And yea, people love to reminis about UO's skill system, but not so much it's actual PvP and combat, which is what I was referring to. The actual act of entering combat with someone is much more fleshed out in a game like WoW than it was in UO. Encounters in UO were very basic, I've set my character around *this* build, I have the next 30 seconds to kill you with these 3 moves. There was very little in the way of group coordinated attacks that required different skills. Not in the manner of speaking that you will have in a game of capture the flag for WoW which is far more reminiscent of an FPS than any MMORPGs before it. Let me put it this way, if you were a GM Lumberjack in UO and you wanted to kill somebody, you'd just click on them. You didn't have to worry about last stand, concussive blow, mortal strikes, your buffs, etc. Depth of combat.

Impacting the world around you? So it's GOOD when it's houses and crafting, but BAD when it involves combat?

It is always good to impact the world. The problem is that a lot of UO's impacts to combat involved griefing and exploits. Let me put it this way, if you didn't know how to macro using a boat on a map intersection or hack your way into a house, you were considered unintelligent during UO's prime. Exploits were considered 'expected knoweldge'. And that was BAD. You had people trying to survive in a world where they would get PK'd by 7x GMs that had macro'd in relative safety by comparison. It wasn't like the strong were conquering the strong, it was the illegal conquering the legit.

 

[mryellow2]

The problem with wow is that nothing you do in the game changes anything.

If they could take wow and let the players actually impact the world...that would be something special. As it is it's just a uberlewtzfest.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

im stupid

 

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: mryellow2
The problem with wow is that nothing you do in the game changes anything.

If they could take wow and let the players actually impact the world...that would be something special. As it is it's just a uberlewtzfest.

qft
It's static, but then what should we have expected from an eq clone?