ArmchairAthlete
Diamond Member
$15/month is absolutely nothing.
Especially when you consider how many hours you can piss away on it.
Especially when you consider how many hours you can piss away on it.
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World Of Warcraft
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I can see that this has everything to do with profit. A game of this kind, with it's success, does reward a company many millions these days.
It'll be a matter of time before almost all games come with a monthly fee for online play ... that's a way to sort of compensate for piracy (at least for some of the games).
But really when I pay a fee, I want to have a service different from the rest ... I've played Freelancer online many times, and had payed nothing but the price of the game ... I got tired of it, mainly due to static economy and reaching the top ... also the limitation on the actions makes me saying that it shouldn't be a game with monthly fee.
As for WoW, do I really have to splash money and lot's of time to reach level 60 to start seeing something else? What if I don't like it? If the game was designed for that level, then blizzard should give people refund if they don't like it ... I bet they do not ... 🙂
Being a MMORPG must be a game with a life on it's own. On my book, that will make it a dangerous game ... a second life game, that literally sucks you in. That's dangerous in my book ... I have a real life 🙂 Anyway, that would make a really funny game to play.
Quests different for every player, obviously I can see that it's not possible, so the best would be to have some quests that work just as tutorial, and then you're free to wander around ... I never played UO, and you tell me that players messing around with other players was what kept the game alive and successfull? So what? Is it that bad? I mean, you start the game, go wander around the city and get robbed ... so what? It feels real to me ... you have a house, and when you arrive you just realise someone forced the entrance and steal you ... just buy a better lock next time, or pay for security ... doesn't it sound real?
I don't know if a more real model like UO would work these days ... first of, I never played, and I bet there was some flaws on it ... but a free-movement game would put a big efford on the maintnance team, and that's what makes the fee worth it. Releasing content like new areas to explore and gather resources from, adding new actions like "now you can run your inn business of your own", that's what will make the game worth of the MMORPG tag.
After looking at WoW (even on an emulated server), I feel like it's a solo game, or more important, a game that doesn't "feel alive". For example: I played as night elve, and arriving near dolanaar, I found a red guy level 7 that gives me a quest to kill some animals. I accepted and just started slaying one near him. I gave him a thunderclap, and inflicted damage on the guy that game me the quest ... then he started hitting me ... I runned around, killed the animals and finished the quest with him (he game me money, eheh), then I went down and killed him ... on my next login, the guy was there ... I got pretty sad with it. Cmon ... if I killed him, why was he still there?
This could have been an excellent game for me. Instead, I feel like it has nothing else on offer that I hadn't before ... as I said, I have Evil Islands that I like the story, I found it just a couple of years ago, and just thidn't finished it because of lack of real-life time to dispend ... but it felt great, played great. Graphics aren't top-notch, and I accept that they are important nowadays, but gameplay must great.
So concluding this mess, I accept that WoW is as it was mean to be ... a game with continuous expansions, with online profile and many players simultaneously, together with big maps. But sadly for me, it isn't what I expected for a MMORPG and a monthly-fee game. It's also sad that there is no alternative that can give me what I was looking for ... maybe in a couple of years from now ...
Anyone tried Eve Online? It looks like Freelancer, but bigger and MMORPG. But is it persistent, or what?
It'll be a matter of time before almost all games come with a monthly fee for online play ... that's a way to sort of compensate for piracy (at least for some of the games).
But really when I pay a fee, I want to have a service different from the rest ... I've played Freelancer online many times, and had payed nothing but the price of the game ... I got tired of it, mainly due to static economy and reaching the top ... also the limitation on the actions makes me saying that it shouldn't be a game with monthly fee.
As for WoW, do I really have to splash money and lot's of time to reach level 60 to start seeing something else? What if I don't like it? If the game was designed for that level, then blizzard should give people refund if they don't like it ... I bet they do not ... 🙂
Being a MMORPG must be a game with a life on it's own. On my book, that will make it a dangerous game ... a second life game, that literally sucks you in. That's dangerous in my book ... I have a real life 🙂 Anyway, that would make a really funny game to play.
Quests different for every player, obviously I can see that it's not possible, so the best would be to have some quests that work just as tutorial, and then you're free to wander around ... I never played UO, and you tell me that players messing around with other players was what kept the game alive and successfull? So what? Is it that bad? I mean, you start the game, go wander around the city and get robbed ... so what? It feels real to me ... you have a house, and when you arrive you just realise someone forced the entrance and steal you ... just buy a better lock next time, or pay for security ... doesn't it sound real?
I don't know if a more real model like UO would work these days ... first of, I never played, and I bet there was some flaws on it ... but a free-movement game would put a big efford on the maintnance team, and that's what makes the fee worth it. Releasing content like new areas to explore and gather resources from, adding new actions like "now you can run your inn business of your own", that's what will make the game worth of the MMORPG tag.
After looking at WoW (even on an emulated server), I feel like it's a solo game, or more important, a game that doesn't "feel alive". For example: I played as night elve, and arriving near dolanaar, I found a red guy level 7 that gives me a quest to kill some animals. I accepted and just started slaying one near him. I gave him a thunderclap, and inflicted damage on the guy that game me the quest ... then he started hitting me ... I runned around, killed the animals and finished the quest with him (he game me money, eheh), then I went down and killed him ... on my next login, the guy was there ... I got pretty sad with it. Cmon ... if I killed him, why was he still there?
This could have been an excellent game for me. Instead, I feel like it has nothing else on offer that I hadn't before ... as I said, I have Evil Islands that I like the story, I found it just a couple of years ago, and just thidn't finished it because of lack of real-life time to dispend ... but it felt great, played great. Graphics aren't top-notch, and I accept that they are important nowadays, but gameplay must great.
So concluding this mess, I accept that WoW is as it was mean to be ... a game with continuous expansions, with online profile and many players simultaneously, together with big maps. But sadly for me, it isn't what I expected for a MMORPG and a monthly-fee game. It's also sad that there is no alternative that can give me what I was looking for ... maybe in a couple of years from now ...
Anyone tried Eve Online? It looks like Freelancer, but bigger and MMORPG. But is it persistent, or what?
imported_Shivetya
Platinum Member
[qNow onto WoW. I played it from day 1 through last May. In the end the game was more of a single player game with occasional interaction. With the ability to solo it made grouping outside of instances near pointless. Especially since you take a hit on exp when grouping(one of the dumbest things ever). So your interaction with people is limited and no forced grouping outside of instances you start to wonder wtf is the point? The level grind is boring, their quests are usually nothing more than kill tasks or running around for 3 hours, and the PVP is bland.
Overall I was hoping this game was going to be awesome but it ended up being the same tired old game model with a new graphic. Quite sad IMO.
[/quote]
Sorry but if your not grouping because of the experience penalty then it is your fault and not that of the games. What is wrong is there are too many people like you today playing MMORPGs who feel that if they are not being rewarded as they see fit it is the fault of the developer. You should not group just for increased experience, you should group because you want to play with others.
As for the quests in WOW. I find very little different there than in any other RPG. As for PVP, PVP in any MMORPG is lackluster.
Overall I was hoping this game was going to be awesome but it ended up being the same tired old game model with a new graphic. Quite sad IMO.
[/quote]
Sorry but if your not grouping because of the experience penalty then it is your fault and not that of the games. What is wrong is there are too many people like you today playing MMORPGs who feel that if they are not being rewarded as they see fit it is the fault of the developer. You should not group just for increased experience, you should group because you want to play with others.
As for the quests in WOW. I find very little different there than in any other RPG. As for PVP, PVP in any MMORPG is lackluster.
imported_Shivetya
Platinum Member
Actually I think one of UO's biggest problems was the scrapping of both intended sequels. Going to a new graphics engine, in other words going first person view opens many avenues in game play.
UO sucked when it first came out. The first few months were a bear. I remember the contant stutter play on Chessie, especially the first Thanksgiving it was out. The game took a long time to improve. Cheats and exploits were many and near constant in the beginning. Most of the faults were overlooked because it was the first real fantasy MMORPG to market and tapped that previously unknown demographic.
I would have agree'd with that at the time of WoW's creation. But at this point in the game, Blizzard is growing level 60 raid content faster than even SOE did. They bringing out dungeon after dungeon without even selling an expansion pack yet. The content of EQ wasn't any more difficult than the current content of WoW. The major change is that EQ has honed a raid mentality into people, people know how to form into large groups and work together very well and when a guild like Fires of Heaven comes into WoW already expecting to do this, it becomes more difficult to blindside them. Where as, people came into EQ from mainly solo games and had to learn how to work together for the first time. The learning curve makes EQ look more challenging.
If a hardcore gamer can't find a challenge in BWL, something is wrong. Exactly how many guilds have finished that dungeon by now?
As I've said in countless other threads. There are plenty of challenges along the way in WoW, but many people choose to skip them. Or if they don't skip them, they cheat them. Shadowfang Keep is a level 20 dungeon, we used to run it with 5 people and it was several hours worth of work. But then you get these people that run it with 10-15 people or wait until every mob is gray before going. These people will never get a challenge out of anything until they hit level 60 and can't outlevel the content. SFK is just one example. The content is out there for 1-60 and all of the dungeons played within their range are a challenge.
Good and Bad. The bad is many. First, your 'content' is now requiring players which is very dangerous ground because if nobody is there to start trouble, you have 0 content. Second, this kind of 'content' makes 1 person happy and pisses off many people. This kind of ratio is pretty bad.
There is only one MMORPG out there that is a true MMORPG and that is Eve Online. Every action has consequences in the world. Hell if I want to I could easily start a universe wide war by shooting certain people out of their battleships! The economy is 100% player made and everything (apart from some of the stations) that you see in the world has been crafted and sold by other players.
As an individual you can start all kinds of hell, but you can also form alliances between the biggest enemies of players if you are good at politics. I can almost guarantee that noone has the exact same skills and skill points as you. You can make whatever you want from the game. You wanna be an industrial ship-building giant? Do it! You wanna be the worst pirate the world has ever seen? Do it! You wanna be a high-stakes head-hunter? Do it! You wanna be a nice guy forming an alliance of peaceful miners? Do it!!
Really the only the limits to the game are your imagination. There are no rules, no encounter locks, no missions (well there are but only for making cash) other than those you create and implement the way you want!
Eve has proven to be too complex for many people, but you seem like someone who weould appreciate a game of depth and provides the chance to flex your creative and intellectual muscle in any way you see fit.
As an individual you can start all kinds of hell, but you can also form alliances between the biggest enemies of players if you are good at politics. I can almost guarantee that noone has the exact same skills and skill points as you. You can make whatever you want from the game. You wanna be an industrial ship-building giant? Do it! You wanna be the worst pirate the world has ever seen? Do it! You wanna be a high-stakes head-hunter? Do it! You wanna be a nice guy forming an alliance of peaceful miners? Do it!!
Really the only the limits to the game are your imagination. There are no rules, no encounter locks, no missions (well there are but only for making cash) other than those you create and implement the way you want!
Eve has proven to be too complex for many people, but you seem like someone who weould appreciate a game of depth and provides the chance to flex your creative and intellectual muscle in any way you see fit.
Fingolfin269
Lifer
I just wish Shadowbane had been developed by someone other than Wolfpack. I wanted to love that game but eventually the vision for what the game should have been went away and I was left starting at the big POS that was the actual game I was playing.
WoW is cool I guess. I've played almost every massive that's hit some sort of beta stage and I can't think of another that I would recommend over WoW. Then again I'm a bit older now than I was when UO launched and the fact is that WoW caters to my free time now. It's a lot easier for me to jump into a game of WoW than it ever was to log in for a 30 minute Everquest session. 😛
WoW is cool I guess. I've played almost every massive that's hit some sort of beta stage and I can't think of another that I would recommend over WoW. Then again I'm a bit older now than I was when UO launched and the fact is that WoW caters to my free time now. It's a lot easier for me to jump into a game of WoW than it ever was to log in for a 30 minute Everquest session. 😛
Malladine
Diamond Member
The only thing keeping me in WoW now is playing with my wife and her son. We attempt difficult goals such as 3 manning stockades at 22/23 and 5 manning RFC at 13/14.
It is just depressing to think about what UO used to be.
We'll probably keep trying new MMOs.
I agree with HoP on open pvp. Esp. lootable corpses. All the millions of people coming from wow and eq1/2 are too used to having a loot centered game instead of a loot supported game. However, for my wife and I, WoW is the 3rd loot centered mmo and we're tired of it. We won't buy another one like it, so maybe just maybe others will feel the same way...it's gonna be tough though. It will take a ballsy move from devs more interested in making a decent mmo than a ton of $. 🙁
It is just depressing to think about what UO used to be.
We'll probably keep trying new MMOs.
I agree with HoP on open pvp. Esp. lootable corpses. All the millions of people coming from wow and eq1/2 are too used to having a loot centered game instead of a loot supported game. However, for my wife and I, WoW is the 3rd loot centered mmo and we're tired of it. We won't buy another one like it, so maybe just maybe others will feel the same way...it's gonna be tough though. It will take a ballsy move from devs more interested in making a decent mmo than a ton of $. 🙁
I also think them scrapping the pvp system killed the game. The game had a life of its own and communities were formed based around protection.
Cant argue with that, I still remember killing trolls on that Thanksgiving and getting negative noteriety. Came back into town not even noticing I was a Dreadlord and got smoked lmao.
But cheats and exploits are a coding issue, the core game mechanics were more solid than you will find in any MMORPG since imo.
Just be thankful your first MMO wasn't City of Heroes. The end game challenges consisted of Archvillian fights. A single "powerful" villian that should have only been beaten by a squad of super heroes... Whoops did I just solo them all. One end game raid, Hamidon which was fought through 3 patches before the "formula" (yes I mean a step by step plan on how to beat the encounter nearly 99% of the time, pending the absence of griefers).
So after seeing how the seasoned players could adapt to the challenges, they lowered all the power effects across the board. Not fixing major mob stacking issues or AI. Slap in another zone and viola(sic) Issue 5. Grabbed every single badge, soloed every single Archvillian, didn't do one task force. So it was just time to move on, as the devs weren't adding anything worth my time to stay.
I did appreciate UOs openendedness, though I didn't play for very long. I think I played on my brothers account, as I was still in school at the time. It was a rather poor experience as I believe I was PKed twice in the beginning. Once a player was attacking some sort of beast near the town. I offered to help, and he said sure. I started to attack and he called the guards on me. Turned out it was his pet, but he still looted my gear and sold it. Another time I was just grinding out skill on lowbie things not far from town. I happened upon a skeleton warrior, and decided why not. So I barely scrap by and low and behold a nice fat weakened target. A quick PK later and I'm trying to get back to my corpse. That was a nice first day... 😉
Now with WoW, I'm fairly educated on the process. My first character is about thirty-nine and a third. I can safely take out people several levels above me so the ganking isn't too bad. Though I moved to WoW with a fellow super group leader from CoH. He really isn't excited about the PvP server we are on. He actually keeps telling me how he wants to move to a PvP RP server.
So after seeing how the seasoned players could adapt to the challenges, they lowered all the power effects across the board. Not fixing major mob stacking issues or AI. Slap in another zone and viola(sic) Issue 5. Grabbed every single badge, soloed every single Archvillian, didn't do one task force. So it was just time to move on, as the devs weren't adding anything worth my time to stay.
I did appreciate UOs openendedness, though I didn't play for very long. I think I played on my brothers account, as I was still in school at the time. It was a rather poor experience as I believe I was PKed twice in the beginning. Once a player was attacking some sort of beast near the town. I offered to help, and he said sure. I started to attack and he called the guards on me. Turned out it was his pet, but he still looted my gear and sold it. Another time I was just grinding out skill on lowbie things not far from town. I happened upon a skeleton warrior, and decided why not. So I barely scrap by and low and behold a nice fat weakened target. A quick PK later and I'm trying to get back to my corpse. That was a nice first day... 😉
Now with WoW, I'm fairly educated on the process. My first character is about thirty-nine and a third. I can safely take out people several levels above me so the ganking isn't too bad. Though I moved to WoW with a fellow super group leader from CoH. He really isn't excited about the PvP server we are on. He actually keeps telling me how he wants to move to a PvP RP server.
HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
Given that there was no MMORPG genre, with all due respect to The Realm and M59, before UO, I'd say the enrollment they did have was incredibly impressive. And, just like every generation since, it has succeeded in bringing in more players.
And I think you aren't giving the current version of UO enough credit. It is a game, even now, that is far deeper and expansive content-wise than every other MMO combined. You can build custom houses, there are now powerful artifacts from the dungeon Doom, the BOD system gives crafters something fun and relevent to do to, rare runic crafting kits can produce incredible armor and weapons, there are a dozen different kinds of ore eah with unique properties, factions in Felucca are trying to give meaning to PvP there, epic encounters in Felucca offer huge rewards, there is buried treasure hunting, dozens of new weapons, playable elves and half-orcs, a dozen rideable creatures, player vendors, virtues, the necromancy skill, etc.
I agree. I think it was primarily that EQ was first-person and had great graphics at the time. I think newbie friendliness and the highly addictive gameplay, that's since been copied by almost every new MMORPG to date, is also part of it.
HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
I am. It's the only way. Your description of PvP tells me right off the bat that you only experienced EQ and WoW PvP which are, indeed, as you described. In UO, PvP was merely the ignition of spark to fuel that drove the gears of the game. With the rune system, it was easy to avoid or escape most PKs. It was the understood motivation for most acts. PvP battles were a primary cause of weapon and armor attrition which meant there was always a market for player crafters to sell their wares in. NOT so for non-PvP games. Even when you maxed out your character's skills, you still had a reason to go out killing high end monsters to get more magical weapons to use and lose in PvP encounters which often enough occurred while you were monster bashing to get more magical items to give you and edge in PvP. When you had more gold and magic weapons and armor than you could ever use, you could become an anti-PK....one of the balancing forces of the game. Most of the time somebody would teleport to a city with half health left, shout that PKs were in Shame and a dozen or more Anti-PKs would teleport there and do battle and make it safe for you again.
But that underscores another great thing about PvP.....the ever present tension. I used to go out killing deers in the forest just beyond the crossroads. I was already a grandmaster and was just there to harvest leather to make money off. That is an activity that is insanely boring in the new UO. In the old UO, it was an act filled with potential peril.......you were out there risking everything you had on you.
Truth be told, half the time it was hard to find a PK fight since they were banned from towns and the number of Anti-PKs far outnumbered them making it a rough life. There were usually just a few hot spots throughout the game that were frequent battle zones.
I doubt it. You've been conditioned by these freaking awful MMORPGs you play to expect shallowness and half-assed ideas. You need to start dreaming up possibilities beyond what you've been given.
I want open PvP, yes, in fact I think it's a necessity for any MMORPG to be truly great. But I want there to be severe consequences, good or bad, for your actions. Go ahead and be an anti-social PK, but life is going to be made very tough for you as there could be, say, a bounty hunting skill that let's players with a certain skill find you once your activities cross a threshold. Let's give players not interested in PvP a way, like the rune system, to escape an encounter or defend themselves better.
The thing you need to realize is that you are playing a game called Massively Multiplayer. Why would you choose to play such a game and not be seeking an experience generated and altered by other players? I could play C-S against bots, but it doesn't offer me the reward that playing with and against other players does. I understand you maybe just want to go kill some kobold or orcs on a lazy Saturday morning, but, come on, install Balders Gate if that's all you want. want company while you do it......open a chat windows at the same time. Stop trying to strip a genre of it's uniqueness because you've run out of single player RPGs to play.
HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
Agree on UO2, but not on UXO which was a terrible idea. I still play that Grim Faeries song from the UO2 preview. 🙂 🙂 🙂 If UO, right now, were to just convert to first-person 3D, it would see a huge revival. As it is, it isn't the game it once was, but, as I described above, it is a lively thing. But it would need major major re-balancing to the point that it would probably be easier to make a new game.
Even as much as I like the look of Darkfall Online, it still doesn't satisfy me. These games need to be less one-dimensional. Geez, I could diagram such an awesome game. Maybe I'll start a spoof site like Dawn to put them all down on. 😉 The game needs to open PvP, but also needs to attract those interested in PvE. Like an eco-system. To sustain a pack of wolves, you need a far larger number of deer and for the deer you need lots of grasses. And you need hunters to kill the wolves and racoons to give the hunters rabies and rabbits that can easily escape the wolves but can't east much grass. Ideally the game would be a world in balance.
CKent
Diamond Member
While new PvE content has recently been added generously, there was nothing new for the PvE crowd for a long, long time. In fact, when the honor system was released, huge bugs were introduced (such as Rend's corpse disappearing upon his death) to the existing PvE content. This was why I left the game for a few months. I came back only out of addiction and the fact there's nothing better to do (that's a sad commentary on the state of game & TV affairs, not a compliment to WoW).
HeroOfPellinor - I still think you're missing the point. Even if PvP were done with honor and by people older than 12 - I still wouldn't like it. The way you talk about it, it's obvious you have a great affinity for it. There's nothing wrong with that, we should all play as we see fit. But it's not my cup of tea, nor is it for many, many other people.
EQ was truly great for myself and many others. I can't imagine a better game, prior to Luclin and especially Planes. For people of my mindset, PvP would only detract from that. I can concede that not everyone feels the way I do - you certainly don't 😛 - please show others the same courtesy.
In what title is this not the case? I've grouped & raided in MMOPRGs, those are experiences generated and altered by other players.
CKent
Diamond Member
Try to be tolerant of other views 😛 I'm simply not into the whole idea, my opinion of it isn't based on experience (though the PvP I have experienced hasn't helped). I simply enjoy cooperating with others to defeat monsters. It's the whole idea of the fantasy setting in the first place. I'm also big on crafting. Different strokes...
ArchAngel777
Diamond Member
The game you want, is a game that won't make money. You can wish all you want, but since you are the minority, you will have to stick to some extremely small MMO.
I have to say I dissagree with your opinion strongly. You are the not the person that determines what an MMO is. You can rip on current ones, you can have your preference, but you absolutely cannot define what an MMO should be, because that is only your opinion, against millions of others.
After reading something you want, I think the perfect game for you is called LIFE! Real life offers consquences for actions... I just want to play a game to get away from it all. I am sorry that you would like to create an additionaly reality to the one you are in right now. It just strikes me as odd that someone wants a fake, real world just like the one we operate in. Don't we play games to get away from it all? I know I do. It is fun to relax, play a game and chat with some friends. WoW is that game... No one *needs* PVP.... Ever heard of co-op? It is fun, try it sometime. People working together, talking, having a community is an MMO, IMO.
Again, perfectly acceptable to have your opinion on the matter, but it isn't the law. Don't expect many to agree with you.
chessy player right here. 1 account left. been playing UO since the last phase of beta, although I have quit from time to time. EA's problem is they refuse to bring UO into 3d, atleast a decent 3d client and not that turd Third Dawn. I was in the 2nd phase of WoW beta and sold my account for few hundred bucks, and I didn't start playing WoW again til a few months ago. I enjoy it, but it's like any other level type game. I like the graphics in WoW, the graphics in EQ2 are to cookie cutter.
as for why I stuck with UO, RL $$. I've made a lot selling gold and rares and stuff. UO was worth it. I doubt I will last 8yrs in WoW
HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
And I think you're missing the point. This genre is called massively multiplayer.
Ask yourself why you have chosen to play a massively multiplayer game? To join with up to 7 other players to do a routine instanced mission? What do those 7 other players do for your experience that well scripted bots couldn't do practically as well?
I'ts occurring to me that the main reason for the wild success of WoW is that perhaps those playing it think it's just a Warcraft RPG. Maybe people don't even know they're playing an MMORPG and think it's just an RPG because that is, in fact, what they're doing....playing an single player RPG with a bunch of other people around.
The only reason for playing or developing an MMORPG is to see WTF 3,000 people, given fantastic surroundings and stripped of their real world veneers, are going to do to each other. And for them to do ANYTHING but /emote dance or /LFG you need to give them freedom. The beauty and the mayhem that ensues is the ONE unique thing this genre has to offer and yet you people are happy to have it stripped from the game as much as possible. PvP is merely the antagonist to keep things moving along.
HardcoreRobot
Lifer
nope, its a lot of fun, dont listen to the haters who cant get over their first love
CKent
Diamond Member
Actually it's up to 40 in WoW. What they offer that scripted bots don't is social interaction - same as PvP. The argument goes both ways - it boils down to what you enjoy. I'm of the mindset that we should all play as we see fit, whether we enjoy PvP or PvE - why are you unable to extend others the same courtesy? PvP has a bit of a stigma among certain circles, and you're not helping it...
I pretty much agree with you on WoW and the current state of MMORPGs in general though; we're both on the fringe of the target demographic (albeit on different sides of said fringe), and so are unlikely to enjoy any future games, which will generally be targeted at the largest playerbase segment - the young casual player.
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