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'World of Warcraft' battles server problems

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Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I can't count the number of times I've quit this game. I'm playing again on a new PvP server but we'll see how long it lasts.

I knew I'd be likely to go back (my guild of two years still plays there and I do miss them), so I deleted my characters before I cancelled.

I think Blizzard is hurting their name. I'm not one to get vehement about the level of service (what do you expect for $0.50 a day), but really the head in the sand attitude turned me off to them.

I also suspect that they aren't really fixing problems as much as working around them. The queues didn't start to happen until they "fixed" the problem of their central login server crashing. My money is on the queues simply acting as a gatekeeper to the login server to prevent it from getting overwhelmed.
 
"It really does suck for us because we're running higher-level (quests) where it takes us a few hours to get to the (goal) and sometimes the server suddenly goes down right near the end before we finish. And they are unannounced (and) you just see people on the server--guild list--start dropping off."
I always get a kick out of people getting quoted the word "suck" in a well-publicized document. How professional.
 
Originally posted by: DirthNader
I quit WoW a couple of months ago, primarily because there was nothing left for me to do but raid (bleh) or roll alts.

The poor service certainly didn't entice me to stay. Huge lag and unplanned restarts are nothing new, and they were happening well before WoW hit 6 million subs. I didn't appreciate my small server (Azjol-Nerub) having not one, but two server transfers onto it either - coupled with Christmas sales, my last months in WoW were full of hour long queues on the weekdays, and queues long enough on the weekends that if you weren't on by 8PM EST, you may as well forget it.
That was a couple months ago, but honestly the queues have dropped on my server significantly. I don't get queues at all unless it's a friday/saturday night or something... and they aren't usually longer than 10 minutes. Not saying it's acceptable but they have gotten better from a couple months ago.
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
but there's a lot more info to keep track of and it is constant.

I'm not sure what your last point means. What's constant? If your first point is that the WoW database application has more complicated data, and more variable states than a banking system, I think you're right. I'm not sure that holds true for a trading system, however it would take an in-depth analysis to say for sure. In any case, I think the bottom line is still that Blizzard has scaled up from their entrepreneurial infrastructure (the game's launch architecture), and hasn't yet made the investments that multi-billion dollar systems make to achieve high-availability.

The CC to Video Game argument is a terrible comparison. First off, does anyone here even have intimate knowledge with what information is passed on each transaction and how many servers are hit by each transaction worldwide? CC transactions are split up by acquiring bank and card issuing bank so that we are now talking about dozens of banks. They are also done in 2 parts, the "real time part" is just an authorization of the code as well as the amount of money that is put on hold. Then later that night, the actual transaction is processed.

Now the second part of the problem is that does anyone here actually have any intimate knowledge of the databases that run a game such as WoW? What are there, 6,000 people on each game 'world'? All of these people who are logged on have to be tracked constantly, every second or couple seconds to ensure how the world responds to them, whether they are dead, etc. Sure, a lot of graphics rendering is done client side, but it is still important (especially in an mmorpg) that the world knows where the player is. The world also needs to know exactly when a player dies to the second, whether they got in the last hit on a mob before they died or before xyz groupy healed them at the last second. The world is also responsible for keeping track of every monster, what loot it drops, and what is done with that loot. As well as all other loot (mail system, auction house, personal trades, all loot is tracked).

WoW has it's problems, Blizzard has done a really good job of trying to tackle them. I've seen nearly every other mmorpg developer out there do much worse. And until I see another developer do 10 million people without any problem (and a similarly robust game), I have a hard time slamming Blizzard for their current predicament.
 
Originally posted by: rh71
That was a couple months ago, but honestly the queues have dropped on my server significantly. I don't get queues at all unless it's a friday/saturday night or something... and they aren't usually longer than 10 minutes. Not saying it's acceptable but they have gotten better from a couple months ago.

I don't doubt that, but on Azjol-Nerub they let things get bad and then stay bad for far too long. When I left in mid-Feb, the queues I described had been the norm for about a month (with shorter queues going back before Chrstmas). They just let people transfer off in the past few weeks.

The server didn't have stability problems, which I'm sure prolonged the suffering before transfers were offered, but who's to say the same thing won't happen again?
 
Originally posted by: skaceAnd until I see another developer do 10 million people without any problem (and a similarly robust game), I have a hard time slamming Blizzard for their current predicament.

What does it matter what size the player base is when the game is divided up into shards that are no bigger than any other MMORPG's shards? Sure, they have more chances for something to go wrong by having more shards out there, but the problems described in the original article are systemic.
 
They opened server transefers between Azjul and Norgannon last week. I left Azjul and so did alot of other people. Your que times should be shorter or none at all now.
 
They're none at all because I got tired of waiting in a queue to spend hours in the same repetitive instances and deleted my account. That was one 60 w/ epic mount, some purple gear, all attunements, and a few hundred gold (and a 40-ish alt).

More power to the people who stayed, but damn, if the Norgannon transfers just started last week that's three solid months of huge queue times on a server where the overpopulation was caused by Blizzard implementing two server transfers onto it. Sounds like fantastic customer service to me.

I miss the people I played with although a couple got scarily addicted to WoW - talking 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week. They've been my MMORPG buds for years. I don't miss WoW itself though.
 
The CC to Video Game argument is a terrible comparison. First off, does anyone here even have intimate knowledge with what information is passed on each transaction and how many servers are hit by each transaction worldwide? CC transactions are split up by acquiring bank and card issuing bank so that we are now talking about dozens of banks. They are also done in 2 parts, the "real time part" is just an authorization of the code as well as the amount of money that is put on hold. Then later that night, the actual transaction is processed.

You're wrong about both the network and the authorization steps, although not entirely in the last case. Any given transaction originates at a particular merchant, hits the acquiring bank's processor, then the Visa or Mastercard backbone, then Visa?MC's mainframes, then the issuing bank's processor, then takes the same trip back. On the way it updates at least four massive databases that handle about a trillion transactions per day. In the U.S. the vast majority of the processing is handled by four non-bank entities: Visa, Mastercard, First Data, Total Systems; and by about ten major banks such as Citi.

In terms of auth, the old auth + batch capture step has largely been replaced by one-step auth/capture for higher volume merchants. They use batch reconcilliation at regular periods.

In any case, all you've argued is that there are even more individual components to each transaction, hitting more databases than I described. Even if I stipulate that you are correct, that just adds complexity and failure points.

You might think it's a terrible comparison. I don't. In both cases you have all the same basic components of an ACID transaction: client, message, transport, protocol, DBMS, storage. What you can argue is that the individual messages are more complex, and the database state more complex, for WoW than for a banking system. I already conceded that with a caveat for trading systems.

The end goal, however, is the same: a high volume stream of ACID updates to a large database over a public/private network. If WoW is more complex, then the banking system serves a much higher volume of transactions.

Note that I am not criticising the game for bugs, or whatever other errors it manifests. I've built both credit card systems and gaming software, and I have a lot of respect for teams who do either. All I am saying is that at certain levels of volume and revenue generating potential, massive investment in availability is required. I doubt that Blizzard has made that investment, but I don't doubt they are working on it.
 
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: makoto00
a wow free life makes the air sweeter and the sun brighter.

I was curious how long it would take the antiMMO zealots to get here, you are late.

lol just to be clear, i played WoW for 120+ played DAYS. that is 120 * 24 hours. when i quit late last year I had a warrior with full might, purple crit set, and an ashkandi. i didn't mean to say it in any anti anything zealot fashion whatever. i'm just saying, literally, a wow free life, has made the air in my life sweeter, and the sun brighter - and i'm sure that of many other people as well.

wow is a great game. no doubt about that.
 
wow is a great game. no doubt about that.

Without question. I played a Horde Hunter to 60 before I got tired of it. I still think it is the pinnacle of mmorpg design in almost every way. Just sort of lacked something in the end game for me. Too much of the end-game population seemed to be into l33t raiding and all that loot whore crap.
 
Originally posted by: MarkbnjI still think it is the pinnacle of mmorpg design in almost every way...

Not to drag out the dead horse, but how? It's basically MMORPG-lite.

There's little to no innovation in combat - encounters still revolve around the ancient "holy trinity" with players outside of those roles desperately trying to shoehorn themselves into one of them. Completely linear progression at endgame - raid or quit. No meaningful crafting - even the high-end crafted items depend on loot drops for components. No player influence on the game world - in a year and half there's been one event that changed the game world, and player interaction isn't required for it to occur. Horrible PvP ranking system, and the slow destruction of PvP in general as mudflation drives the equipment of the raiders to a ridiculous level.

The spit-and-polish is definately there, and I love Blizzard's respect for lore (especially after SWG, which completely bastardized its liscense). The pre-60 experience is really the highlight of that game, but that post-60 loot-whoring you mentioned is really all that's left to do after you ding that last level.
 
got home last night and my internet connection was petty much dead. sprint was having issues in PA.

maybe these are signs that i shouldn't play again...
and the more i think about it and read, the more i am reminded of why i quit in the 1st place...
 
Originally posted by: DirthNader
Originally posted by: MarkbnjI still think it is the pinnacle of mmorpg design in almost every way...

Not to drag out the dead horse, but how? It's basically MMORPG-lite.

There's little to no innovation in combat - encounters still revolve around the ancient "holy trinity" with players outside of those roles desperately trying to shoehorn themselves into one of them. Completely linear progression at endgame - raid or quit. No meaningful crafting - even the high-end crafted items depend on loot drops for components. No player influence on the game world - in a year and half there's been one event that changed the game world, and player interaction isn't required for it to occur. Horrible PvP ranking system, and the slow destruction of PvP in general as mudflation drives the equipment of the raiders to a ridiculous level.

The spit-and-polish is definately there, and I love Blizzard's respect for lore (especially after SWG, which completely bastardized its liscense). The pre-60 experience is really the highlight of that game, but that post-60 loot-whoring you mentioned is really all that's left to do after you ding that last level.

I don't disagree with the in-depth analysis. I'm just looking at how it compares to its predecessors. Spit and polish is important. When WoW was released it had the most seamless game world, the best art and design, easily the best interface, etc. It doesn't have to hit some idealized standard to be "the pinnacle." It just has to beat what came before, and I think it did that.
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
The end goal, however, is the same: a high volume stream of ACID updates to a large database over a public/private network. If WoW is more complex, then the banking system serves a much higher volume of transactions.

I'm not sure that that is actually true. For making it fairly loosely analogous, if you consider every time someone kills something, or everytime someone loots something as a 'transaction', I think you might find that those 6 million customers make more 'transactions' per hour than the average person would make credit card transactions in several months.

One other thing to consider is timeliness - the criticality of response time is quite different - a 2 second delay would make WoW virtually unusable for an end user but would be mostly unnoticeable in credit card authorisation.


 
I think you might find that those 6 million customers make more 'transactions' per hour than the average person would make credit card transactions in several months.

I don't think it matters what the average person would do in terms of volume. There are a lot more people using the banking networks. The Visa/MC backbone handles nearly a trillion transactions a day.

But you have a good point with respect to tolerance of latency. However, I would point out that people have been having problems with the login servers, spawning instances, and other things that aren't latency-sensitive.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I think the basic point holds. 6 million users means you have to dump some serious dollars into infrastructure.
 
Originally posted by: DirthNader
Originally posted by: skaceAnd until I see another developer do 10 million people without any problem (and a similarly robust game), I have a hard time slamming Blizzard for their current predicament.

What does it matter what size the player base is when the game is divided up into shards that are no bigger than any other MMORPG's shards? Sure, they have more chances for something to go wrong by having more shards out there, but the problems described in the original article are systemic.

Game "shards" are a composition of different servers. Servers that run instances, servers that run the regular zones, servers that run battlegrounds, servers that run the databases. Shards share common servers like database or instance servers and sometimes it is these servers that do not scale well. Each shard is not just an individual wholey seperate server.

No gaming solution is perfectly scaleable from 1 person to 10 million outside of a game like Quake where servers are completely independant. And Blizzard did not have these problems when they started out (beyond the stress test). So yes, size matters.
 
And Blizzard did not have these problems when they started out (beyond the stress test). So yes, size matters.

Then you either weren't playing it when they started out, or you were on one of the few very low pop servers. Blizzard had huge problems at launch, from lag to login servers crashing, 45-min login queues, instances going down, you name it. It was bad enough that the press started following it.
 
OK, I'm being edumacated here, which is good (I'm an AT reader since '97, but not an IT pro)...

I understand that each shard isn't operating on its own server, and that there are different pieces of hardware which may handle zones, instaances, etc for multiple servers.

Where does scaling come in though? If they're limiting the number of shards that access a particular server for a particular function, aren't they effectively limiting the number of clients that are accessing a given piece of hardware? Wouldn't the increase in population, the resultant queing, and the subsequent release of new shards indicate that the cycle they've been running under since launch is "install hardware / open shard -> fill to capacity -> repeat"?

If that's the case, then the actual number of clients utilizing a given piece of hardware would stay relatively constant as new hardware is introduced to handle the increasing number of clients, correct?
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
Then you either weren't playing it when they started out, or you were on one of the few very low pop servers. Blizzard had huge problems at launch, from lag to login servers crashing, 45-min login queues, instances going down, you name it. It was bad enough that the press started following it.

I played from beta through launch and was in the first raids of UBRS on my server, Sargeras. First MC raids also. Only a few servers had problems, such as Archimonde because every person from beta had decided that would be THE pvp server and every guild tried to join it. Our guild originally started out there, realized it wasn't going to work and moved to Sargeras without a single problem past that.
 
Originally posted by: DirthNader
Where does scaling come in though? If they're limiting the number of shards that access a particular server for a particular function, aren't they effectively limiting the number of clients that are accessing a given piece of hardware? Wouldn't the increase in population, the resultant queing, and the subsequent release of new shards indicate that the cycle they've been running under since launch is "install hardware / open shard -> fill to capacity -> repeat"?

Shards all connect to similar item database servers. If these database servers become slow, how do they scale them? Scaling issue. Your "shards" are servers in a server room, if the switch, the core switch or the connection to the outside world becomes saturated, what do they do? Scaling issue. All servers require being backed up. If they continually add servers, how is their backup solution doing, scaling issue. Everything in an environment has to scale. If something isn't planned out properly, something could be overlooked, such as the item database server, and now you have a scaling issue. In other words, you built 90% of your environment around the fact that it could scale except for 1 component that you never thought would NEED to scale. You hit the limit on this 1 component and now you have a problem that could possibly take a reworking of your entire system.

I am not saying this is what is going on. I am saying that WE as gamers and not their server admins, do not know. It is not as simple as saying "hey plz put up new server thx". My point is that if there was a simple solution that could solve any of Blizzard's current issues, I'm pretty sure they, out of any developer out there, would have done it already.
 
Originally posted by: skace
Originally posted by: Markbnj
Then you either weren't playing it when they started out, or you were on one of the few very low pop servers. Blizzard had huge problems at launch, from lag to login servers crashing, 45-min login queues, instances going down, you name it. It was bad enough that the press started following it.

I played from beta through launch and was in the first raids of UBRS on my server, Sargeras. First MC raids also. Only a few servers had problems, such as Archimonde because every person from beta had decided that would be THE pvp server and every guild tried to join it. Our guild originally started out there, realized it wasn't going to work and moved to Sargeras without a single problem past that.

Server issues were well known and publicized in the first few months of WoW's life. You were very lucky and/or weren't paying attention to what was going on elsewhere.
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
I think you might find that those 6 million customers make more 'transactions' per hour than the average person would make credit card transactions in several months.

I don't think it matters what the average person would do in terms of volume. There are a lot more people using the banking networks. The Visa/MC backbone handles nearly a trillion transactions a day.

Yeah, that's what I meant - obviously without access to blizzard's numbers it's impossible to make 100% accurate comparisons - but just for a possible example :

If concurrency runs about 1.5 of the 6 mil, and these people kill 100 or so creatures per hour, loot 1 item off each and later sell that 1 item to a store, you have 100 * 3 * 1,500,000*24 or 1,080,000,000,000 transactions per day. Some of those numbers are probably off, but in terms of overall scale I suspect it's more comparable than you might first think.

But you have a good point with respect to tolerance of latency. However, I would point out that people have been having problems with the login servers, spawning instances, and other things that aren't latency-sensitive.

That's true, and I agree that this is clearly them dropping the ball on infrastructure.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I think the basic point holds. 6 million users means you have to dump some serious dollars into infrastructure.

Yeah, I have to agree, I'd strongly suspect that the proportion of their infrastructure cost to banking networks is vastly lower than their proportion of transaction volume to banking networks. That's partly understandable in that they make a lot less money from it though I guess.

 
Yeah, I have to agree, I'd strongly suspect that the proportion of their infrastructure cost to banking networks is vastly lower than their proportion of transaction volume to banking networks. That's partly understandable in that they make a lot less money from it though I guess.

That's an interesting question. Banks run on much lower margins than a lot of people suspect. The actual return on assets for large banks hover around 1.5%. But they get their 1.5% of a really big pie 🙂. It might very well be that Blizzard has to handle the same volume of transactions with much less revenue. If WoW is a billion dollar business, the banking industry puts a few times that much into systems every year.
 
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