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Workers deserve secret vote for union election

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There is NOTHING THAT PREVENTS A UNION FROM HAVING A "MEMBER'S ONLY" BARGAINING UNIT.

Other than the Law. See the NLRA, section 9, sub. 159, (a)&(b), here-

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/legal/manuals/rules/act.asp

Taking tcsenter's pov that the law should be changed is one thing, repeatedly asserting that the law is something that it clearly is not reflects a level of programming that's utterly unfathomable. Just because you put it in caps and/or repeat it over and over again ad nauseum doesn't make it true, CkG....

As for the rest of it, anybody who signs a petition to have a union election better mean it, because hostile employers won't hesitate to bust your chops. As far as the employer is concerned, your name on that petition means you want to unionize, naive and/or outright lame assertions to the contrary notwithstanding... It's a public document, once filed with the NLRB, and you've still got a long way to go before actually having any collective bargaining protections... The cardcheck system actually offers greater privacy, as the signatories are known only to the union up until enough signatures are collected to assert bargaining rights... In voluntary unionization scenarios, the employer informs the employees that an agreement in principle has been reached to allow local xyz to organize the employees, and it's up to that local to convince the employees such is in their best interests. Anybody who signs a card under such circumstances either knows what they're doing, or is a complete moron....

Nor is that in any way a defense of some unscrupulous locals who use the cardcheck agreements to forge sweetheart deals with employers... Even then, rank and file employees need to see some improvements, or they'll toss the Union right back out...

Whether in a RTW state or not, bargaining unit members have the right to opt out of that portion of dues not used for administrative costs of the Union, but must still pay those administrative costs, typically over 90% of full dues...
 
quote:

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There is NOTHING THAT PREVENTS A UNION FROM HAVING A "MEMBER'S ONLY" BARGAINING UNIT.
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That's irrevelant to this discussion but anyways....
RTW work laws directly attack this Bargaining unit....by preventing a CHOICE between employees and the company to CHOOSE to have an agreement that keeps out freeloaders. What good is a "MEMBER'S ONLY" BARGAINING UNIT if the shop is infested with non-member freeloaders?



State RTW laws.

I'm curious about something.

Which of the 22 states with RTW laws allow employees and a company to mutually agree in CHOOSING to have what is often referred to a "closed" shop....which allows workers to keep out freeloaders.

I can't seem to find any.

Actually there are none.

RTW laws are nothing more than government interference to promote freeloadism(?) and thereby weaken and/or prevent the workers from acting with a strong collective voice.
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
More of the usual "I hate Unions" FUD from CkG.

CkG, I don't see why you care. Just like with the school vouchers issue, why do you bother... if those involved don't care to help themselves, why force them to? If these folks want to support craptacular public schools and bloated dinosaur unions and in so doing f** themselves, then let them. If you work in an industry with a strong union presence, then you're working in a mature/declining market sector in a job that could have been done by someone two hundred years ago.

I don't really give a sh!t what happens to some dumbass union worker working in a non-competitive industry that's going to get moved to Bangaladesh in a couple months anyway. I have even less pity when the news runs some sob story about a textile mill closing somewhere and the workers whining about it. If you expected a lifetime employment position with high wages in a job that could be done by a goat herder, than you deserve to be unemployed for being a MORON.
I don't know about Textile workers but one would have to be a Moron not to belong to a Union is they are in the building trades. I've worked both Union and Non Union and being in the Union is light years better than being a non Union Carpenter. Of course the quality of a Union Carpenter is usually light years better than a Non Union Carpenter mostly due to the training they receive in the Unions apprecticeship programs.
 
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.
 
Originally posted by: MadRat
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.

A Hack with a Hammer wouldn't last two days on a Union Job, at least not the jobs I worked on. You need to have some skill to go with that hammer. There are a lot of good carpenters who aren't union but for the most part they work for themselves as Contractors or are good enough to be paid what a Union Carpenter makes along with the same bennies. If he doesn't get it them he's crazy for not working a Union Job.
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: glenn1
More of the usual "I hate Unions" FUD from CkG.

CkG, I don't see why you care. Just like with the school vouchers issue, why do you bother... if those involved don't care to help themselves, why force them to? If these folks want to support craptacular public schools and bloated dinosaur unions and in so doing f** themselves, then let them. If you work in an industry with a strong union presence, then you're working in a mature/declining market sector in a job that could have been done by someone two hundred years ago.

I don't really give a sh!t what happens to some dumbass union worker working in a non-competitive industry that's going to get moved to Bangaladesh in a couple months anyway. I have even less pity when the news runs some sob story about a textile mill closing somewhere and the workers whining about it. If you expected a lifetime employment position with high wages in a job that could be done by a goat herder, than you deserve to be unemployed for being a MORON.
I don't know about Textile workers but one would have to be a Moron not to belong to a Union is they are in the building trades. I've worked both Union and Non Union and being in the Union is light years better than being a non Union Carpenter. Of course the quality of a Union Carpenter is usually light years better than a Non Union Carpenter mostly due to the training they receive in the Unions apprecticeship programs.

Oh here we go.. 'Union workers do better work'.. Ok..
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MadRat
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.

A Hack with a Hammer wouldn't last two days on a Union Job, at least not the jobs I worked on. You need to have some skill to go with that hammer. There are a lot of good carpenters who aren't union but for the most part they work for themselves as Contractors or are good enough to be paid what a Union Carpenter makes along with the same bennies. If he doesn't get it them he's crazy for not working a Union Job.

Ever think you MAY have an inflated view of your skills? Maybe the reason you are working is not your skill, but your unions ability to protect you? I find that people in Unions often think they are much better they they really are. Besides, isn't carpentry something we should have outsourced to India by now? 😉
 
I think Red Dawn recognizes that a successful craftsmen will either go union for consistent work, or run their own business. Skilled craftsmen are few and far between. Anyone that owns a hammer may try to pass themself off as a carpenter, but there is alot more to carpentry than pounding nails.
 
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MadRat
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.

A Hack with a Hammer wouldn't last two days on a Union Job, at least not the jobs I worked on. You need to have some skill to go with that hammer. There are a lot of good carpenters who aren't union but for the most part they work for themselves as Contractors or are good enough to be paid what a Union Carpenter makes along with the same bennies. If he doesn't get it them he's crazy for not working a Union Job.

Ever think you MAY have an inflated view of your skills?
Nope
Maybe the reason you are working is not your skill, but your unions ability to protect you?
Actually I haven't swung a hammer in 20 years due to a back injury. When I was a Union Carpenter though the Union couldn't make the Contractor keep you if we weren't any good.
I find that people in Unions often think they are much better they they really are.
Actually I think the only thing you have found lately are things lodged in your lower intestinal track
Besides, isn't carpentry something we should have outsourced to India by now? 😉
Yeah if they were building Mud Huts
 
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
There is NOTHING THAT PREVENTS A UNION FROM HAVING A "MEMBER'S ONLY" BARGAINING UNIT.

Other than the Law. See the NLRA, section 9, sub. 159, (a)&(b), here-

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/legal/manuals/rules/act.asp

Taking tcsenter's pov that the law should be changed is one thing, repeatedly asserting that the law is something that it clearly is not reflects a level of programming that's utterly unfathomable. Just because you put it in caps and/or repeat it over and over again ad nauseum doesn't make it true, CkG....

As for the rest of it, anybody who signs a petition to have a union election better mean it, because hostile employers won't hesitate to bust your chops. As far as the employer is concerned, your name on that petition means you want to unionize, naive and/or outright lame assertions to the contrary notwithstanding... It's a public document, once filed with the NLRB, and you've still got a long way to go before actually having any collective bargaining protections... The cardcheck system actually offers greater privacy, as the signatories are known only to the union up until enough signatures are collected to assert bargaining rights... In voluntary unionization scenarios, the employer informs the employees that an agreement in principle has been reached to allow local xyz to organize the employees, and it's up to that local to convince the employees such is in their best interests. Anybody who signs a card under such circumstances either knows what they're doing, or is a complete moron....

Nor is that in any way a defense of some unscrupulous locals who use the cardcheck agreements to forge sweetheart deals with employers... Even then, rank and file employees need to see some improvements, or they'll toss the Union right back out...

Whether in a RTW state or not, bargaining unit members have the right to opt out of that portion of dues not used for administrative costs of the Union, but must still pay those administrative costs, typically over 90% of full dues...

Ummm - nothing you have said(or linked to) disproves what I have said. That section does not state that unions have to be "exclusive" - it only says that a union must represent all those in the "unit". Now again that doesn't mean a "unit" has to be "exclusive"(in this case talking about only having one union in a workplace) There can be multiple unions in a workplace so that means the "unit" would be made up of those wanting to be in that particular union.(members only)

I don't see how people fail to grasp this concept except for the fact they've been indoctrinated so much by the "union message" they just fall in lockstep behind them.

Anyway, it's good you see that the card-check thing can be abused but "card-checks" aren't the way things are supposed work as far as forming a union and workers deserve the right to have a secret vote on this.

Ferocious - "members only" covers only those in the Union. That means - no "free-loaders". The union can "represent" their members and those who choose to be in a different union(often called minority unions) can represent theirs, and individuals can represent themselves. It's pretty simple really. If people want to join a union they should be allowed to, but those who don't want to join shouldn't be FORCED to. The fact that you can "opt out" of a tiny portion of the "dues" is no consolation to those who have "dues" directly taken from their checks.
Oh, and your question is silly. In RTW states no one has to join a union if they don't want to, so "closed shops" don't exist. Now if unions would just follow THIS ADVICE, I wouldn't take issue with them as much. Oh, and please attack the site/source...😉

CkG
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MadRat
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.

A Hack with a Hammer wouldn't last two days on a Union Job, at least not the jobs I worked on. You need to have some skill to go with that hammer. There are a lot of good carpenters who aren't union but for the most part they work for themselves as Contractors or are good enough to be paid what a Union Carpenter makes along with the same bennies. If he doesn't get it them he's crazy for not working a Union Job.

Ever think you MAY have an inflated view of your skills?
Nope
Maybe the reason you are working is not your skill, but your unions ability to protect you?
Actually I haven't swung a hammer in 20 years due to a back injury. When I was a Union Carpenter though the Union couldn't make the Contractor keep you if we weren't any good.
I find that people in Unions often think they are much better they they really are.
Actually I think the only thing you have found lately are things lodged in your lower intestinal track
Besides, isn't carpentry something we should have outsourced to India by now? 😉
Yeah if they were building Mud Huts

Oh, one of those people.. 'My back hurts.. I can't work!'.. That explains a lot.. thanks.. 😀 The reason a hack with a hammer wouldn't last 2 days on a union job is probably because the union workers would put a pair of concrete shoes on him and put him on river inspection duty for not being a member..
 
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MadRat
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.

A Hack with a Hammer wouldn't last two days on a Union Job, at least not the jobs I worked on. You need to have some skill to go with that hammer. There are a lot of good carpenters who aren't union but for the most part they work for themselves as Contractors or are good enough to be paid what a Union Carpenter makes along with the same bennies. If he doesn't get it them he's crazy for not working a Union Job.

Ever think you MAY have an inflated view of your skills?
Nope
Maybe the reason you are working is not your skill, but your unions ability to protect you?
Actually I haven't swung a hammer in 20 years due to a back injury. When I was a Union Carpenter though the Union couldn't make the Contractor keep you if we weren't any good.
I find that people in Unions often think they are much better they they really are.
Actually I think the only thing you have found lately are things lodged in your lower intestinal track
Besides, isn't carpentry something we should have outsourced to India by now? 😉
Yeah if they were building Mud Huts

Oh, one of those people.. 'My back hurts.. I can't work!'..
I had a ruptured disk and a subsequent operation to fix it. Things like that happen when you have to exert yourself physically, probably something you aren't familiar with.
That explains a lot.. thanks.. 😀
It explains that after I recovered from the operation I enrolled in College and upon completing my courses went to work for a Real Estate Firm as head of Property Manangement. I think what needs to be explained is why you are such an ignorant troll!
 
More of CkG's usual obfuscation of the point- The NLRA specifically states that "the board shall decide" which employees are included in a bargaining unit, and furthermore that the union will be obligated to represent all the employees in that unit that was determined by the board, not by the union...

The NLRB determines who is in the unit, and the union can take it or leave it... all or nothing. Win 51% of the votes in an election, or get 51% of the workers to sign up in a cardcheck scenario, and everybody's in, otherwise, everybody's out- a form of democracy...

CkG and the other union-haters around here will be glad to hear, however, that the fee-objectors actually receive preferential treatment. Why? Because if they don't get it, they'll whine, and sue the union for not representing them properly... In my local, a third hot drug test within the disciplinary period for the first two means we won't help you, if you're a member, but fee-objectors' cases go to arbitration, even though they're utterly hopeless... They've whined about the fees for years, stabbed the union in the back repeatedly, but now that they got their tit in the wringer, we've got to bend over backwards for 'em, one more time....
 
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
More of CkG's usual obfuscation of the point- The NLRA specifically states that "the board shall decide" which employees are included in a bargaining unit, and furthermore that the union will be obligated to represent all the employees in that unit that was determined by the board, not by the union...

The NLRB determines who is in the unit, and the union can take it or leave it... all or nothing. Win 51% of the votes in an election, or get 51% of the workers to sign up in a cardcheck scenario, and everybody's in, otherwise, everybody's out- a form of democracy...

CkG and the other union-haters around here will be glad to hear, however, that the fee-objectors actually receive preferential treatment. Why? Because if they don't get it, they'll whine, and sue the union for not representing them properly... In my local, a third hot drug test within the disciplinary period for the first two means we won't help you, if you're a member, but fee-objectors' cases go to arbitration, even though they're utterly hopeless... They've whined about the fees for years, stabbed the union in the back repeatedly, but now that they got their tit in the wringer, we've got to bend over backwards for 'em, one more time....

Still wrong. You might try actually READING it, and trying to understand it and what I say, instead of just believing what you've been fed over the years.

Yeah, keep whining about the "free-loaders" all you want but nothing says the Unions CAN'T have a member's only union. They seem to think that they won't get the membership if it's voluntary or something. People who do not want to be in unions and pay "dues" shouldn't have to do so.
The answer is simple to your "fee-objector" problem - don't force them to join the union. If unions would form as non-exclusive units(although the law allows them to do so) they would avoid "having to pay for the free-loaders" - so stop whining and start changing your union.

There is nothing wrong with being in a union, but to say they give people more choice is utter BS. True choice would be to allow those who wish to join - join, and those who don't - don't. Also you union apologists - please read the link I posted before - it may help you to open your eyes.
minority unions

CkG
 
There is no one that ever has to join a union.

If the company and workers have a negotiated agreement (only legal in non-RTW states) that requires members to join the union (to avoid free-loading) and you don't wish to be a part of that then......look elsewhere....there are plenty of non-union jobs out there....or apply for a non-union position at the company.


RTW laws eliminate a choice available to workers and companies in non-RTW states.
 
Don't like the rules, don't play the game. Only 15% of workers are union, find another job if you don't like it. That's freedom.
 
Read It, CkG? I'll do better, I'lll post it-

Sec. 9 [§ 159.] (a) [Exclusive representatives; employees' adjustment of grievances directly with employer] Representatives designated or selected for the purposes of collective bargaining by the majority of the employees in a unit appropriate for such purposes, shall be the exclusive representatives of all the employees in such unit for the purposes of collective bargaining in respect to rates of pay, wages, hours of employment, or other conditions of employment: Provided, That any individual employee or a group of employees shall have the right at any time to present grievances to their employer and to have such grievances adjusted, without the intervention of the bargaining representative, as long as the adjustment is not inconsistent with the terms of a collective-bargaining contract or agreement then in effect: Provided further, That the bargaining representative has been given opportunity to be present at such adjustment.

(b) [Determination of bargaining unit by Board] The Board shall decide in each case whether, in order to assure to employees the fullest freedom in exercising the rights guaranteed by this Act [subchapter], the unit appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining shall be the employer unit, craft unit, plant unit, or subdivision thereof: Provided, That the Board shall not (1) decide that any unit is appropriate for such purposes if such unit includes both professional employees and employees who are not professional employees unless a majority of such professional employees vote for inclusion in such unit; or (2) decide that any craft unit is inappropriate for such purposes on the ground that a different unit has been established by a prior Board determination, unless a majority of the employees in the proposed craft unit votes against separate representation or (3) decide that any unit is appropriate for such purposes if it includes, together with other employees, any individual employed as a guard to enforce against employees and other persons rules to protect property of the employer or to protect the safety of persons on the employer's premises; but no labor organization shall be certified as the representative of employees in a bargaining unit of guards if such organization admits to membership, or is affiliated directly or indirectly with an organization which admits to membership, employees other than guards.

Where does it say that the Union shall decide who is the bargaining unit? It doesn't- it says the Board (the NLRB) shall decide.

Where does it say that the Union can choose to represent only union members? It doesn't- it says that the union must represent all employees in the bargaining unit as designated by the Board.

Your contentions as to what the law allows are pure FUD and disinformation, clearly driven by anti-union ideology rather than through any practical experience in such matters. If you want to change the law, and argue for that, fine, have at it, but your ongoing contentions that "day is night", "war is peace" and "slavery is freedom" are best left to folks more persuasive, guys like Dick Cheney...

Nor have I ever referred to fee-objectors as "freeloaders"- I've pointed out, repeatedly, that the law requires them to pay administrative costs for the privilege of union representation, and that they're often the first to scream bloody murder if they think they're not getting it... I see them as self-centered and short-sighted, often lacking in any semblance of loyalty or self-examination, part of the "Me!Me!Me!" phenomenon made so prevalent by 30 years of uber-right propaganda visited upon us all by the so-called "Liberal Media"... Among my coworkers, there are a few who opted-out when the prospect of being forced to strike loomed large, but they're now the ones complaining the loudest about how we got screwed on the last contract- undercut the Union's bargaining position, then complain about the results achieved because of that weakness...

None of which has much to do with the blatant disinformation in your opening post. Privacy? Put your name on that Union vote petition, see what kind of privacy you've really got- a helluva lot less than in a cardcheck scenario, where the union organizers can protect the identities of their sympathizers until they've achieved the required majority, and immediately assert collective bargaining rights.... All kinds of stuff can happen between the filing of that petition and an actual vote, which management can often stall for years. By the time the vote actually happens, all the union sympathizers have been squeezed out, silenced, or fired, for one "legitimate" reason or another.... and everybody else is scared shitless...
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MadRat
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.

A Hack with a Hammer wouldn't last two days on a Union Job, at least not the jobs I worked on. You need to have some skill to go with that hammer. There are a lot of good carpenters who aren't union but for the most part they work for themselves as Contractors or are good enough to be paid what a Union Carpenter makes along with the same bennies. If he doesn't get it them he's crazy for not working a Union Job.

Ever think you MAY have an inflated view of your skills?
Nope
Maybe the reason you are working is not your skill, but your unions ability to protect you?
Actually I haven't swung a hammer in 20 years due to a back injury. When I was a Union Carpenter though the Union couldn't make the Contractor keep you if we weren't any good.
I find that people in Unions often think they are much better they they really are.
Actually I think the only thing you have found lately are things lodged in your lower intestinal track
Besides, isn't carpentry something we should have outsourced to India by now? 😉
Yeah if they were building Mud Huts

Oh, one of those people.. 'My back hurts.. I can't work!'..
I had a ruptured disk and a subsequent operation to fix it. Things like that happen when you have to exert yourself physically, probably something you aren't familiar with.
That explains a lot.. thanks.. 😀
It explains that after I recovered from the operation I enrolled in College and upon completing my courses went to work for a Real Estate Firm as head of Property Manangement. I think what needs to be explained is why you are such an ignorant troll!

Real estate? I figured you as used cars... But I guess even a step down to Real Estate isn't bad.. you shouldn't be ashamed of what you do.. granted, a shoe salesman is a better position than what you do.. but, we need real estate people! So keep your head up, eventually things will improve for you!
 
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MadRat
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.

A Hack with a Hammer wouldn't last two days on a Union Job, at least not the jobs I worked on. You need to have some skill to go with that hammer. There are a lot of good carpenters who aren't union but for the most part they work for themselves as Contractors or are good enough to be paid what a Union Carpenter makes along with the same bennies. If he doesn't get it them he's crazy for not working a Union Job.

Ever think you MAY have an inflated view of your skills?
Nope
Maybe the reason you are working is not your skill, but your unions ability to protect you?
Actually I haven't swung a hammer in 20 years due to a back injury. When I was a Union Carpenter though the Union couldn't make the Contractor keep you if we weren't any good.
I find that people in Unions often think they are much better they they really are.
Actually I think the only thing you have found lately are things lodged in your lower intestinal track
Besides, isn't carpentry something we should have outsourced to India by now? 😉
Yeah if they were building Mud Huts

Oh, one of those people.. 'My back hurts.. I can't work!'..
I had a ruptured disk and a subsequent operation to fix it. Things like that happen when you have to exert yourself physically, probably something you aren't familiar with.
That explains a lot.. thanks.. 😀
It explains that after I recovered from the operation I enrolled in College and upon completing my courses went to work for a Real Estate Firm as head of Property Manangement. I think what needs to be explained is why you are such an ignorant troll!

Real estate? I figured you as used cars... But I guess even a step down to Real Estate isn't bad.. you shouldn't be ashamed of what you do.. granted, a shoe salesman is a better position than what you do.. but, we need real estate people! So keep your head up, eventually things will improve for you!
Christ, Crimson, is this your retarded idea of witty one-upsmanship? Stop humping Red Dawn's leg. Everyone can see who's the poodle here.

Anyone else want to chip in for Crimson's vet appointment? I mean, we're all agreed this is one bitch who shouldn't breed, right? :|
 
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MadRat
I wouldn't go tooting horns about how unionized carpenters are better than non-union. Private carpenters are worthy of standing on their own work. Any hack with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter, but if they don't have the work to show for it then nobody would hire them. With the contracts that go to only unionized carpenters there isn't necessarily a choice between a good or bad carpenter.

A Hack with a Hammer wouldn't last two days on a Union Job, at least not the jobs I worked on. You need to have some skill to go with that hammer. There are a lot of good carpenters who aren't union but for the most part they work for themselves as Contractors or are good enough to be paid what a Union Carpenter makes along with the same bennies. If he doesn't get it them he's crazy for not working a Union Job.

Ever think you MAY have an inflated view of your skills?
Nope
Maybe the reason you are working is not your skill, but your unions ability to protect you?
Actually I haven't swung a hammer in 20 years due to a back injury. When I was a Union Carpenter though the Union couldn't make the Contractor keep you if we weren't any good.
I find that people in Unions often think they are much better they they really are.
Actually I think the only thing you have found lately are things lodged in your lower intestinal track
Besides, isn't carpentry something we should have outsourced to India by now? 😉
Yeah if they were building Mud Huts

Oh, one of those people.. 'My back hurts.. I can't work!'..
I had a ruptured disk and a subsequent operation to fix it. Things like that happen when you have to exert yourself physically, probably something you aren't familiar with.
That explains a lot.. thanks.. 😀
It explains that after I recovered from the operation I enrolled in College and upon completing my courses went to work for a Real Estate Firm as head of Property Manangement. I think what needs to be explained is why you are such an ignorant troll!

Real estate? I figured you as used cars... But I guess even a step down to Real Estate isn't bad.. you shouldn't be ashamed of what you do.. granted, a shoe salesman is a better position than what you do.. but, we need real estate people! So keep your head up, eventually things will improve for you!
Christ, Crimson, is this your retarded idea of witty one-upsmanship? Stop humping Red Dawn's leg. Everyone can see who's the poodle here.

Anyone else want to chip in for Crimson's vet appointment? I mean, we're all agreed this is one bitch who shouldn't breed, right? :|

You have me totally confused.. Who is the poodle? Me or Red? So is it a poodle humping Red's leg, or me humping a Poodle's leg? I'm not not smart enough to figure this all out, I'll hand over my life to you liberal intelectuals that have all the answers.
 
It was you, tcsenter, who represented greater choice as a free lunch for employees, failing to mention the downside, which is reduced leverage at the bargaining table for everybody involved.
Reduced bargaining leverage for whom, a union people wouldn't join if given the choice without fear of reprisal? That's precisely the kind of union that should have reduced bargaining leverage. Unions who can't sell it have no business existing if they have to force people to become members.

Is this what unions were supposed to be about? Becoming the counter-weight to coercive and unfair labor practices by using the exact same methods on employees that unions purport to be protecting? Oh, I see, unions only oppose coercion, intimidation, and unfair practices when unions aren't profiting from it. Yes, its all becoming so clear now...
your analogy to slavery is possibly one of the most twisted arguments against Unionism I've ever heard, and attempts to dismiss the conduct of employers in general prior to the legalization of Unions - and the conduct of some employers even today...
My analogy was not necessarily comparing slavery and unions directly, but to illustrate how giving more freedoms to the oppressed can reduce the freedoms of oppressors. Sad, ain't it?

You're right, unions are not 'enslaving' anyone by any reasonable analogy. The coercion, intimidation, and repressive methods employed by unions to protect their power is far more analogous to how Jim Crow laws and the Black Code tried to keep those uppity negroes from exercising their rights of conscience and freedom of association without fear of reprisal. Or analogous, perhaps, to certain ideologies where one was coerced to support certain omnipotent politicial parties, garnering such affectionate terms as the "Iron Curtain".

But slavery? That was way off, I mean totally. My bad.
Some of the rightwing commentary on the web is amazing- I wonder if people who actually work for a living honestly believe it, or if it's perpetrated by paid hacks...
lol! Have you seen the numbers on public support for unions these days? How about union roles? Let's just say that the numbers are, well, a little 'off' their historical peaks.

You know why? I'm going to let you in on a little secret, because that's the kind of guy I am. This is real hush-hush, so don't go telling any of your unionist pals, eh?

The reason support for unions is dwindling is because unions cling blindly to tired old worn-out bits that were a smash hit in the 1920s but don't float any more, things like dismissing reasonable criticisms of unions and calls to reign-in their abuses as the work of paid hacks and 'union busting'. Its 2004 and the union still talks, acts, and thinks like its 1920.

Solidarity, brother!
 
Originally posted by: Crimson
Real estate? I figured you as used cars... But I guess even a step down to Real Estate isn't bad.. you shouldn't be ashamed of what you do.. granted, a shoe salesman is a better position than what you do.. but, we need real estate people! So keep your head up, eventually things will improve for you!
LOL, I agree with you about R.E. Agents. However I was head of the Property Management Division which entailed overseeing Leasing Agents, Maintenance, dealing with the legal aspects (spent a lot of time in court) and in part Contractor. I prefered being a Carpenter though as it was a lot more enjoyable and I like the physical aspect of it (I'm a fitness nut). In addition I didn't have to deal with low life tenants, slum lords AKA Tiawanese Clients with R.E. Holdings in the States and scum of the earth R.E. Agents whom I always to to knock heads with when preparing a rental for sale (especially when I was squeezing them for part of their commision). I also wasn't on call 7/24 including Holidays "My oven doesn't work and I have all my family over for Thanksgiving..Help!!"

Anyway troll, that should give you more ammunition to continue to try and denigrate me like you constantly do to others, something that you seem to revel in from the anonymity of your keyboard.
 
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Read It, CkG? I'll do better, I'lll post it-

Sec. 9 [§ 159.] (a) [Exclusive representatives; employees' adjustment of grievances directly with employer] Representatives designated or selected for the purposes of collective bargaining by the majority of the employees in a unit appropriate for such purposes, shall be the exclusive representatives of all the employees in such unit for the purposes of collective bargaining in respect to rates of pay, wages, hours of employment, or other conditions of employment: Provided, That any individual employee or a group of employees shall have the right at any time to present grievances to their employer and to have such grievances adjusted, without the intervention of the bargaining representative, as long as the adjustment is not inconsistent with the terms of a collective-bargaining contract or agreement then in effect: Provided further, That the bargaining representative has been given opportunity to be present at such adjustment.

(b) [Determination of bargaining unit by Board] The Board shall decide in each case whether, in order to assure to employees the fullest freedom in exercising the rights guaranteed by this Act [subchapter], the unit appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining shall be the employer unit, craft unit, plant unit, or subdivision thereof: Provided, That the Board shall not (1) decide that any unit is appropriate for such purposes if such unit includes both professional employees and employees who are not professional employees unless a majority of such professional employees vote for inclusion in such unit; or (2) decide that any craft unit is inappropriate for such purposes on the ground that a different unit has been established by a prior Board determination, unless a majority of the employees in the proposed craft unit votes against separate representation or (3) decide that any unit is appropriate for such purposes if it includes, together with other employees, any individual employed as a guard to enforce against employees and other persons rules to protect property of the employer or to protect the safety of persons on the employer's premises; but no labor organization shall be certified as the representative of employees in a bargaining unit of guards if such organization admits to membership, or is affiliated directly or indirectly with an organization which admits to membership, employees other than guards.

Where does it say that the Union shall decide who is the bargaining unit? It doesn't- it says the Board (the NLRB) shall decide.

Where does it say that the Union can choose to represent only union members? It doesn't- it says that the union must represent all employees in the bargaining unit as designated by the Board.

Your contentions as to what the law allows are pure FUD and disinformation, clearly driven by anti-union ideology rather than through any practical experience in such matters. If you want to change the law, and argue for that, fine, have at it, but your ongoing contentions that "day is night", "war is peace" and "slavery is freedom" are best left to folks more persuasive, guys like Dick Cheney...

Nor have I ever referred to fee-objectors as "freeloaders"- I've pointed out, repeatedly, that the law requires them to pay administrative costs for the privilege of union representation, and that they're often the first to scream bloody murder if they think they're not getting it... I see them as self-centered and short-sighted, often lacking in any semblance of loyalty or self-examination, part of the "Me!Me!Me!" phenomenon made so prevalent by 30 years of uber-right propaganda visited upon us all by the so-called "Liberal Media"... Among my coworkers, there are a few who opted-out when the prospect of being forced to strike loomed large, but they're now the ones complaining the loudest about how we got screwed on the last contract- undercut the Union's bargaining position, then complain about the results achieved because of that weakness...

None of which has much to do with the blatant disinformation in your opening post. Privacy? Put your name on that Union vote petition, see what kind of privacy you've really got- a helluva lot less than in a cardcheck scenario, where the union organizers can protect the identities of their sympathizers until they've achieved the required majority, and immediately assert collective bargaining rights.... All kinds of stuff can happen between the filing of that petition and an actual vote, which management can often stall for years. By the time the vote actually happens, all the union sympathizers have been squeezed out, silenced, or fired, for one "legitimate" reason or another.... and everybody else is scared shitless...

Nope, I've read it many times and researched it thoroughly. Unions can infact be non-exclusive(member only). Are you really that ignorant to not understand that?
Now as to your asinine conclusion that the union can't decide what it's "unit" is defined as - go read about "bargaining units" - specifically "non-exclusive" types then come back here and tell me that a union can't put a clause in their formation that defines their "unit".
We've been over this all before and you're still wrong and you're still spewing that Union disinformation.

If you don't want the "fee-objectors" to whine - then don't let them in the Union. It really is that simple. Amend your damn union charter for cripes sakes. You can do it - it's right there in the law😉

Yeah, privacy during the main vote. Petitions don't require a majority....but you already knew that didn't you:roll: So even if the big bad evil corrupt company(that unions used to fight against) "pressured" those ~30% percent it still might not be everyone who may vote for the union during a secret ballot. On the other hand you have the "never seen a day of corruption and brow-beating(sometimes literally)" angelic Union who shoves a card infront of people and "asks" them to sign it instead of allowing them to vote in a secret vote. No thanks - I still think the secret vote is the way things should be done - it's the rules anyway.

Now again, read what I linked before, then go inform yourself on this issue so you don't have to look foolish when continually spreading your Union disinformation.

CkG
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Crimson
Real estate? I figured you as used cars... But I guess even a step down to Real Estate isn't bad.. you shouldn't be ashamed of what you do.. granted, a shoe salesman is a better position than what you do.. but, we need real estate people! So keep your head up, eventually things will improve for you!
LOL, I agree with you about R.E. Agents. However I was head of the Property Management Division which entailed overseeing Leasing Agents, Maintenance, dealing with the legal aspects (spent a lot of time in court) and in part Contractor. I prefered being a Carpenter though as it was a lot more enjoyable and I like the physical aspect of it (I'm a fitness nut). In addition I didn't have to deal with low life tenants, slum lords AKA Tiawanese Clients with R.E. Holdings in the States and scum of the earth R.E. Agents whom I always to to knock heads with when preparing a rental for sale (especially when I was squeezing them for part of their commision). I also wasn't on call 7/24 including Holidays "My oven doesn't work and I have all my family over for Thanksgiving..Help!!"

Anyway troll, that should give you more ammunition to continue to try and denigrate me like you constantly do to others, something that you seem to revel in from the anonymity of your keyboard.

Red, I am just joking with you.. seriously.. I don't really believe you are a step down for a used car salesman.. 🙂
 
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