Women's rights under Islam

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
My favorite part of this whole song and dance is that the Fundie Christian American Wingnuts invaded and destroyed one of a few secular regimes in the ME, to "protect" the Ultra-fundie Saudis and the Apartheid Israelis, and are now supporting the most Fundie Muslim faction, the Shia, in the Iraqi civil war, which they instigated...

Having established a complete cranio-rectal interface, progress is now defined as squeezing the shoulders in, too...

What? You used so much rhetoric and jargon I have idea what you said 🙁

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Craig234
About women who do sex work in the US:

But there is a big difference that should be pointed out, namely that in the west women really choose to dress/act sexy often in spite of family/community norms.

We have big economic pressures on the women to do so. Just as the economic opportunities for African Americans are so limited as to greatly incent their selling drugs, there's a many-billion dollar industry in porn, strip clubs, prostitution and more that is very compelling economically for many women.

The economics are also driving many Eastern European women into the online webcam market to get western dollars, and there are Asian women literally enslaved and shipped around the world in the sex trade, including probably thousands in the US, with the occassional arrest.

On the one hand, there's an element of 'freedom' to the women getting into the sex trade. But in my view, most of them are doing it for the money, not because they want to. That's not quite the same innocent explanation as the 'they just like to dress sexy' issue.

And remember, even on that issue, there's an issue of how our culture teaches women how to act, influenceing their 'free choice'. I like the freedom; but I don't think we're without room for critical observations about our sex behaviors.

Woah... theres a difference between women wearing skirts or posing for playboy and prostitution. My comments were addressing the idea that western culture somehow objectifies women by force in the same way that some muslim cultures force women into subservient second class roles.

Sure women here are influenced by media and scantily clad pop stars and even porn. But they are also influenced by their families, schools, and churches in usually the opposite direction. And all of these influencing factors are not backed up with the threat of violence (ideally, ignoring abusive fathers...).

I agree that probably a high percentage of women in the sex trade are victims of sexual abuse and their choice to go into prostitution wasn't exactly 'free'. But we are talking about an act that is illegal in most of the west. Also prostitution is not unique to the west obviously and the worst of the sex trade exists in muslim societies just as it does in the west.

I hope you did not miss the whole point of my post though by taking "choose to dress/act sexy" to mean engaging in 'sex work'.

I felt that your selection out of the broad behaviors in the west the muslims are critical of, of only 'dressing sexy', was too narrow and missed the real argument they have.

Even in your response, the discussion is restricted to the topics most in our favor to defend. We should look at the larger picture.

Take pornography, for example. It's perfectly legal that the countless thousands of women who perform 'sex work' - posing for sexual provocative nude photos and sexually explicit photos and movies on the web and the many billions of dollars porn industry are acting legally in being paid for sexual work. Prostitution has the prostitute take money for sexual service in private, illegally outside of parts of Nevada; a porn film has the the actress take money for sexual service on film to be available to millions, legally.

I'm not saying whether the sex work is good or bad, that's another debate with disagreement in the US; but I do think that it's unfair to the muslims' viewpoint to treat their concerns about the US sexual culture as just some girls dressing sexy as something they freely choose for fun, and dismissing the concerns breezily.

I also am not going into the rights and wrongs because it's easy in any discussion to get on to a soapbox and start condemning anything too easily. It's a complex issue.

Sometimes, harmfully misused freedom is still better than a lack of freedom for a society.

You also did not include the issue I raised of the economic pressures. The less there's a safety net, the more desperate people there are who will compromise themselves.

While some percent of sex workers are dealing with abuse issues and such, many, I'd say most, are compromising what they'd like to do for cash, because the incentives are high.

I think this plays a role in the high rate of drug use among sex workers, to 'dull' the problems this causes.

The Muslims have every right to their opinion on the balances our society has struck, just as we do about the balances they have struck, and they're not just 'girls dressing sexy'.

It's not at all as shallow as the burka versus sexy dress; if that were the issue, we'd be vulnerable to our making a big deal of breasts while Europe laughs at our culture for it.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
My favorite part of this whole song and dance is that the Fundie Christian American Wingnuts invaded and destroyed one of a few secular regimes in the ME, to "protect" the Ultra-fundie Saudis and the Apartheid Israelis, and are now supporting the most Fundie Muslim faction, the Shia, in the Iraqi civil war, which they instigated...

Having established a complete cranio-rectal interface, progress is now defined as squeezing the shoulders in, too...

What? You used so much rhetoric and jargon I have idea what you said 🙁

I'll attempt a translation.

His favorite part of the situation between the US and the Middle East is that the group of Americans who are fundamentalist right-wing Christians invaded Iraq, one of the few secular governments among all the fundamentalist Muslim nations, to protect the radically fundamentalist Muslim nation of Saudi Arabia from Saddam, and to protect the radical regime of Israel who practices apartheid against the Palastenians; and are allied with the fundamentalist Muslim group in Iraq, the Shia, who have taken over the government.

He's saying the policy is terrible, and they're going the wrong direction still.

I think a point he's making is that for all the concerns about the radical fundamentalist Muslim groups, the Iraq war has served to help them and remove a secular regime.

 

[firewall]

:roll:

Troll thread.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Craig234
About women who do sex work in the US:

But there is a big difference that should be pointed out, namely that in the west women really choose to dress/act sexy often in spite of family/community norms.

We have big economic pressures on the women to do so. Just as the economic opportunities for African Americans are so limited as to greatly incent their selling drugs, there's a many-billion dollar industry in porn, strip clubs, prostitution and more that is very compelling economically for many women.

The economics are also driving many Eastern European women into the online webcam market to get western dollars, and there are Asian women literally enslaved and shipped around the world in the sex trade, including probably thousands in the US, with the occassional arrest.

On the one hand, there's an element of 'freedom' to the women getting into the sex trade. But in my view, most of them are doing it for the money, not because they want to. That's not quite the same innocent explanation as the 'they just like to dress sexy' issue.

And remember, even on that issue, there's an issue of how our culture teaches women how to act, influenceing their 'free choice'. I like the freedom; but I don't think we're without room for critical observations about our sex behaviors.

Woah... theres a difference between women wearing skirts or posing for playboy and prostitution. My comments were addressing the idea that western culture somehow objectifies women by force in the same way that some muslim cultures force women into subservient second class roles.

Sure women here are influenced by media and scantily clad pop stars and even porn. But they are also influenced by their families, schools, and churches in usually the opposite direction. And all of these influencing factors are not backed up with the threat of violence (ideally, ignoring abusive fathers...).

I agree that probably a high percentage of women in the sex trade are victims of sexual abuse and their choice to go into prostitution wasn't exactly 'free'. But we are talking about an act that is illegal in most of the west. Also prostitution is not unique to the west obviously and the worst of the sex trade exists in muslim societies just as it does in the west.

I hope you did not miss the whole point of my post though by taking "choose to dress/act sexy" to mean engaging in 'sex work'.

I felt that your selection out of the broad behaviors in the west the muslims are critical of, of only 'dressing sexy', was too narrow and missed the real argument they have.

Even in your response, the discussion is restricted to the topics most in our favor to defend. We should look at the larger picture.

Take pornography, for example. It's perfectly legal that the countless thousands of women who perform 'sex work' - posing for sexual provocative nude photos and sexually explicit photos and movies on the web and the many billions of dollars porn industry are acting legally in being paid for sexual work. Prostitution has the prostitute take money for sexual service in private, illegally outside of parts of Nevada; a porn film has the the actress take money for sexual service on film to be available to millions, legally.

I'm not saying whether the sex work is good or bad, that's another debate with disagreement in the US; but I do think that it's unfair to the muslims' viewpoint to treat their concerns about the US sexual culture as just some girls dressing sexy as something they freely choose for fun, and dismissing the concerns breezily.

I also am not going into the rights and wrongs because it's easy in any discussion to get on to a soapbox and start condemning anything too easily. It's a complex issue.

Sometimes, harmfully misused freedom is still better than a lack of freedom for a society.

You also did not include the issue I raised of the economic pressures. The less there's a safety net, the more desperate people there are who will compromise themselves.

While some percent of sex workers are dealing with abuse issues and such, many, I'd say most, are compromising what they'd like to do for cash, because the incentives are high.

I think this plays a role in the high rate of drug use among sex workers, to 'dull' the problems this causes.

The Muslims have every right to their opinion on the balances our society has struck, just as we do about the balances they have struck, and they're not just 'girls dressing sexy'.

It's not at all as shallow as the burka versus sexy dress; if that were the issue, we'd be vulnerable to our making a big deal of breasts while Europe laughs at our culture for it.

You bring up valid criticisms, but I hope your not still missing the point. Imagine if a slave owner defended slavery by arguing that without it former slaves would engage in all kinds of scandalous behavior. What if they pointed to the US and the racist stereotypes of blacks here as a defense of enslaving them for their own good. What if they argued that without their abusive enslavement blacks would be forced into crime and drugs because white racists would leave them no other choice, does that somehow make it unfair to continue criticizing the slave-owners?

That is essentially what is happening in some of the fundamentalist islamic states. Women are treated as slaves who can't be trusted with freedom lest they turn into whores like western women (either by their own accord or 'influences',... doesn't matter).

There is plenty of time to criticize the way the sex trade works in the US but it would be a mistake to think that it means its unfair to criticize the M.E. in their oppressive treatment of women. Some of their points are valid but its no excuse for them to continue oppressing women.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: f95toli

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: yllus
Sorry guys, I'm as big a critic of religion as anyone, but little to none of that is accurate.

Those may be cultural values for regions in which Islam is popular, but they are not Islamic values as dictated by the Koran. And the Koran is law (literally).

If you feel beholden to consider Islam the enemy, remember that it's best to actually and literally know thy enemy. Not what you've heard about your enemy via e-mail chain letters.

Have you read the Koran?

?Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will? (2:223)

?Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge (beat) them? (4:34)

Have you read the bible? Or the Tora?
ALL the major religions are oppressive to women by modern standards, and -as I pointed out above- both the passages you quote are in agreement with the ways the laws in both the US and Europe up until just over 100 years ago. Moreover, that the wife should obey her husband was a part of the christian wedding wovs up until quite recently (and still is in some places).
So what you are refering to has nothing to do with Islam a such, it is just that the Koran was written 1300 years ago and back then these were accepted "truths" all over the world.

I can't speak to the Tora, but I can speak to the Bible.

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church."

IE, be willing to die for your wife.

The Old Testament is another story, but in the modern Christian culture the Old Testament is more of value as a historical and contextual document rather than a book of law. The coming of the Messiah changed things from the Old Testament culture. Do some Christians not follow this today? Yes, absolutely - same as the fact that 90% of Muslims to not commit jihad. The Inquisition-era Catholic Church's treatment of Jews was as bad in many ways as the Muslims' treatment of Ba'hai, Buddhist, Christian, and Jewish peoples. To that I will say this - there are some very big doctrinal differences between the Catholic and Protestant churches, so much so that one of the bloodiest wars in history was fought over it in the 17th century.

There has been no such reformation of Islam as there was of Judaism when Christ came. If nothing else, that is what Islam is lacking - a moderate voice to bring the Wahabs out of the stone age.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
That is essentially what is happening in some of the fundamentalist islamic states. Women are treated as slaves who can't be trusted with freedom lest they turn into whores like western women (either by their own accord or 'influences',... doesn't matter).

There is plenty of time to criticize the way the sex trade works in the US but it would be a mistake to think that it means its unfair to criticize the M.E. in their oppressive treatment of women. Some of their points are valid but its no excuse for them to continue oppressing women.

I explicitly said that we can criticize the poor treatment of women in the Middle East.

I hope you didn't miss the point that the context of this thread suggests not a concern for middle eastern women, but generating hate of muslims, in my opinion.

That practice is done by people to demonize other groups to keep 'useful enemies' around, to make violence against them less objectionable.

With any two major cultures, each might be able to find 100 objectionable things in the other. Whether some of those 100 are used to generate hate is the question.

I think a healthy reaction to the issue is to say "wow, they have a very different set of philosophies about the nature and role of women. I wonder what they are thinking? My starting view is that it appears like classic sexism, and the women are suffering from the situation. I'll try to learn more about their culture. I might become an activist for changing the situation; I would not presume to use force to make them change at gunpoint."

A more common reaction might be, "those evil bastards. If they act that way towards their own women, they can't be trusted with any power and are our enemy. We need to look for ways to defeat them and get rid of their bad policies and help them get our good policies."

The right wing has some remarkable blinders many wear which see no evil when our allies (or we) do something, but they become great humanitarians in attacking their enemies.

The issue I was directly raising was the dismissal of Muslims' critiisms of the west as being just about 'dressing sexy'.

 

[Craig234]

nm

 

[f95toli]

Originally posted by: XMan
Testament is more of value as a historical and contextual document rather than a book of law.

True, but the point is that many muslims feel the same way about the Koran; i.e. that is is possible to be a good muslim without taking everything in the text litteraly; i.e. they embrace a more "contemporary" interpretation which is better suited for the modern world.
The word "fundamentalist"means someone who does not agree with this and DOES claim that everything in the text MUST be understood litteraly; but as you yourself point out most muslims are not fundamentalist which is why sharia is NOT used as a legal system in most muslim countries.

Fundamentalism is incidently a very modern phenomena which was almost unheard of just 100 years ago, it is very much a reaction towards the secularisation which was the result of the western influence in muslim countries at the time; in many countries being a fundamentist became a (misguided) way supporting the freedom movements (by being "anti-western") after WWII. I.e. Egypt was much more secular just 40 years ago than it is today.
Hence, fundamentalism is in many ways a political phenomena which is why it is relatively rare in countries where the political system is stable as it tend to be in democracies.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: hscorpio
That is essentially what is happening in some of the fundamentalist islamic states. Women are treated as slaves who can't be trusted with freedom lest they turn into whores like western women (either by their own accord or 'influences',... doesn't matter).

There is plenty of time to criticize the way the sex trade works in the US but it would be a mistake to think that it means its unfair to criticize the M.E. in their oppressive treatment of women. Some of their points are valid but its no excuse for them to continue oppressing women.

I explicitly said that we can criticize the poor treatment of women in the Middle East.

I hope you didn't miss the point that the context of this thread suggests not a concern for middle eastern women, but generating hate of muslims, in my opinion.

That practice is done by people to demonize other groups to keep 'useful enemies' around, to make violence against them less objectionable.

With any two major cultures, each might be able to find 100 objectionable things in the other. Whether some of those 100 are used to generate hate is the question.

I think a healthy reaction to the issue is to say "wow, they have a very different set of philosophies about the nature and role of women. I wonder what they are thinking? My starting view is that it appears like classic sexism, and the women are suffering from the situation. I'll try to learn more about their culture. I might become an activist for changing the situation; I would not presume to use force to make them change at gunpoint."

A more common reaction might be, "those evil bastards. If they act that way towards their own women, they can't be trusted with any power and are our enemy. We need to look for ways to defeat them and get rid of their bad policies and help them get our good policies."

The right wing has some remarkable blinders many wear which see no evil when our allies (or we) do something, but they become great humanitarians in attacking their enemies.

The issue I was directly raising was the dismissal of Muslims' critiisms of the west as being just about 'dressing sexy'.

Some of the posters have ulterior motives in their criticisms and could care less about muslim women, but that doesn't mean their criticisms are not valid. If your concerned about generating hate, then say so and throw that out there since its certainly needed in a thread like this. I just hope your not clouded by your own blinders so much that you would dismiss an opportunity to say the way women are oppressed in parts of the M.E. is wrong, just because you don't like the politics & motives of the other guy making the same criticism.

"dressing and acting sexy" really is the what muslim rebuttals are about though, with regards to the thread topic. Its about the idea that westerners have no grounds to criticize slave like treatment of muslim women because we disrespect women by treating them as sex objects. They believe this because of playboy or even more so movies and tv (their prime exposure to western culture) where they see women dressing and acting inappropriately in a sexual manner... in other words sexy.

 

[Craig234]

hscorpio, you make me want to pull your hair out, and since I don't know you, the bit I have left is at risk, when you say:

I just hope your not clouded by your own blinders so much that you would dismiss an opportunity to say the way women are oppressed in parts of the M.E. is wrong, just because you don't like the politics & motives of the other guy making the same criticism.

Did I use an invisible font in my previous posts?

I not only said otherwise, I then repeated myself and said in more detail otherwise, in clear language.

I'll quote myself already repeating myself on this point:

I explicitly said that we can criticize the poor treatment of women in the Middle East.

What do I have to do, use all caps? I don't want to do that.

Your other points preceding that are fine. The one following it isn't. 'Sexy dress' is *part* of their concern, there's much more. Yes, they see TV and movies from the west, but they have a lot more info, too. They know we have high rates of drug use (heck, Afghanistan's economy is based on the opium they sell us now), and various sex industries and such.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Craig234
hscorpio, you make me want to pull your hair out, and since I don't know you, the bit I have left is at risk, when you say:

I just hope your not clouded by your own blinders so much that you would dismiss an opportunity to say the way women are oppressed in parts of the M.E. is wrong, just because you don't like the politics & motives of the other guy making the same criticism.

Did I use an invisible font in my previous posts?

I not only said otherwise, I then repeated myself and said in more detail otherwise, in clear language.

I'll quote myself already repeating myself on this point:

I explicitly said that we can criticize the poor treatment of women in the Middle East.

What do I have to do, use all caps? I don't want to do that.

No you just need to do it with the same spirit you use when looking inward at our own culture. So far you said oppressive treatment of muslim women 'is bad' and then went straight into a rant on why western culture is also bad in many ways with lots of talk of 'right wingers'. We all know the flaws in western societies and we get to discuss & debate them all the time.

However with all the political correctness & taboos about criticizing religion, it isn't often we get to engage in the topic of this thread. The oppressive treatment of women in islamic and many other cultures(our own up until just a few decades back) is one of those issues that truly disgusts me. Its not an issue that should be glanced over in a relativistic manner where people are afraid to say its wrong. I know your not saying that, but you don't help by turning this thread into another 'don't be so quick to judge, look whats wrong with the US' thread.

I made my statement that drives you crazy😉 because I noticed your one of those guys who uses labels like 'the right' often in your posts kinda like Limbaugh constantly uses 'the left'. In my experience people that overuse these labels are often just as blinded by the partisanship they see in their foes of 'the right/left'.

Your other points preceding that are fine. The one following it isn't. 'Sexy dress' is *part* of their concern, there's much more. Yes, they see TV and movies from the west, but they have a lot more info, too. They know we have high rates of drug use (heck, Afghanistan's economy is based on the opium they sell us now), and various sex industries and such.

Go back and read the post I originally quoted and you'll see why my original and main point is fine too. True there is much more to muslim criticism of the west than us 'letting' women dress & act sexy, but I was specifically adressing the issue of how women are treated. From the things I've read and from Steppinthrax post it is obvious that muslim criticism in this particular issue is for the most part all about their impression that western women are 'objectified' as sex objects because of the way they appear and act.