Woman, 44, Dies on Plane

[misle]

Since when is Oxygen the magic cure for heart disease?

 

[Mark R]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
The woman's death could have been prevented had the airline acted more appropriately. They denied the passenger oxygen, failed to deliver oxygen when it was finally approved, and didn't even land the plane when she allegedly died.

Not at all. Oxygen is a drug, and it should only be given under medical supervision, or where there is good reason - although side effects are few, oxygen given without appropriate control can be fatal to people with lung disease.

It sounds like the airline was absolutely correct. They can't expect crew to be doctors or nurses, and they have guidelines which they gave to staff. When the crew weren't sure, they went to check.

The thing is, that if the woman really did ask for oxygen 'because she had diabetes' then that is a totally inappropriate request, as diabetes isn't treated with oxygen. If she had, in fact, said that she had suddenly developed severe shortness of breath, then that's different - and oxygen might be appropriate in that circumstance.

 

[StageLeft]

It sounds, Mark R, that the airlines was not correct to have two empty oxygen tanks. That alone is what they will be fried for in this. The rest of it, I don't know...

 

[Lemon law]

I have to somewhat wonder about the medically unqualified people on this forum rushing to diagnosis. Especially when key facts are in dispute.

As for me, I will wait until the unbiased facts start coming in before forming any final conclusions.

 

[Wreckem]

If she died of cardiac problems, which is what happened, all the oxygen in the world wouldnt have mattered. She still would have died.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It sounds, Mark R, that the airlines was not correct to have two empty oxygen tanks. That alone is what they will be fried for in this. The rest of it, I don't know...

That is in dispute.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Wreckem
If she died of cardiac problems, which is what happened, all the oxygen in the world wouldnt have mattered. She still would have died.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That too is likely to be in dispute. A diminished capacity of the heart to pump blood through the lungs COULD lead to oxygen starvation of the already injured heart that MIGHT NOT have been as severe if oxygen was administered. In addition to contributing to shock, trauma, and panic.

Making a judgment like that will take more than the cursory autopsy already preformed. And if the case goes lawsuit,
even autopsy results will likely be hotly disputed by plaintiff and defendant expert witnesses.

I ask again, why should we rush to judgment ahead of the facts?

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: Mark R

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
The woman's death could have been prevented had the airline acted more appropriately. They denied the passenger oxygen, failed to deliver oxygen when it was finally approved, and didn't even land the plane when she allegedly died.

Not at all. Oxygen is a drug, and it should only be given under medical supervision, or where there is good reason - although side effects are few, oxygen given without appropriate control can be fatal to people with lung disease.

It sounds like the airline was absolutely correct. They can't expect crew to be doctors or nurses, and they have guidelines which they gave to staff. When the crew weren't sure, they went to check.

The thing is, that if the woman really did ask for oxygen 'because she had diabetes' then that is a totally inappropriate request, as diabetes isn't treated with oxygen. If she had, in fact, said that she had suddenly developed severe shortness of breath, then that's different - and oxygen might be appropriate in that circumstance.

Are you out of your mind?

She was COULDN'T BREATH AND ASKED FOR OXYGEN!!!

No time to run through bulls**t formalities. And besides, even after they got approval the oxygen tanks were empty!! And they DIDN'T LAND THE PLANE AFTER SHE SUPPOSEDLY DIED.

She was NEVER legally pronounced dead. You know when someone has heart attack, stops breathing, dies, but is still sent to the hospital for revival tactics?

Because you want to ensure that EVERYTHING was done to save the life. There's plenty of cases where people have survived under extreme conditions which is exactly why all methods are exhausted before the d word is laid out.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic

Originally posted by: Mark R

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
The woman's death could have been prevented had the airline acted more appropriately. They denied the passenger oxygen, failed to deliver oxygen when it was finally approved, and didn't even land the plane when she allegedly died.

Not at all. Oxygen is a drug, and it should only be given under medical supervision, or where there is good reason - although side effects are few, oxygen given without appropriate control can be fatal to people with lung disease.

It sounds like the airline was absolutely correct. They can't expect crew to be doctors or nurses, and they have guidelines which they gave to staff. When the crew weren't sure, they went to check.

The thing is, that if the woman really did ask for oxygen 'because she had diabetes' then that is a totally inappropriate request, as diabetes isn't treated with oxygen. If she had, in fact, said that she had suddenly developed severe shortness of breath, then that's different - and oxygen might be appropriate in that circumstance.

Are you out of your mind?

She was COULDN'T BREATH AND ASKED FOR OXYGEN!!!

No time to run through bulls**t formalities. And besides, even after they got approval the oxygen tanks were empty!! And they DIDN'T LAND THE PLANE AFTER SHE SUPPOSEDLY DIED.

She was NEVER legally pronounced dead. You know when someone has heart attack, stops breathing, dies, but is still sent to the hospital for revival tactics?

Because you want to ensure that EVERYTHING was done to save the life. There's plenty of cases where people have survived under extreme conditions which is exactly why all methods are exhausted before the d word is laid out.

1. There is ****ing red tape around things like Oxygen. They don't just give it to you if you ask for it. The Article states that the guy stated she had diabetes and asked for oxygen. then Flight Attendant rightfully knew that Oxygen isn't given to diabetes patients. But she Still asked anyway. She denied the oxygen because diabetes isn't a reason to give oxygen. She couldn't breathe. Yes, that sucks. but thats not the primary cause of death.

She didn't die because she lacked oxygen. most likely, it was a symptom of her getting a heart attack or something.

2. Several Doctors on the plane said her heart stopped. oh sure, she wasn't legally pronounced dead. but considering she was still on a plane, and touchdown would take at least 10 minutes, she would be brain dead all to hell anyway.

3. They actually did divert, but when pronounced dead, they found no use in trying to get her to a hospital, so they went to JFK

4. There are conflicting stories about the oxygen tanks. For all we know, they might actually have been working

5. What "everything" is there on a ****ing plane? Its not like they have a pharmacy. They have...tynenol and asprin. Unles they could figure out how to make several expensive and bulky medical machines to just appear on the plane and diagnose her, or even give her something other than asprin, I'm not sure where you are going with this.

And Those extreme conditions? Those extreme conditions are usually followed by a quick trip to a well stocked hospital. A plane at 30,000 feet is not one of those places.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
The airline is responsible for their passengers. If a passenger can't breath and requests oxygen, YOU GIVE THAT PASSENGER OXYGEN. There is no evidence to suggest she had a pre-existing condition, and even if she did I sincerely doubt an airline would allow someone to carry on a friggin oxygen tank.

In addition, the airline did NOT have a working defibrillator, and even after she died they moved the body to first class and continued the scheduled flight.

WTF?!

They are going to get sued up the @ss and I can't wait.

Airlines are not flying hospitals. American oddly enough was one of the first to carry a variety of medical kits. And you are right airlines do not allow personal oxygen tanks... but just like kosher meals and other needs... Oxygen can be available to patients during a flight if they request in advance.

But anyway don't be so happy that a company will have to possibly pay out the ass It is generally a good company and U.S. airlines struggle as it is. A lot more people die in flight than you realize. We should wait till the real story comes out before reserving total judgement. I guess at this point we don't know if she was denied oxygen or if the tanks were indeed empty. Right now its he said/she said.

An uncle of mine died in a similarway (on the ground though). Laying in bed with his wife he leaned over and told her he could not breathe. Minutes later he was dead because of a torn aorta from years of smoking. Had the paramedics been next door... he still would have died.

Best case scenerio flying directly over the airport... it will still take some to get the plane on the ground. If you are over the ocean forget it. Moral: don't fly if your ill.

 

[JD50]

Noobtastic, read the thread, you were proven wrong before your first post.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic

Originally posted by: Mark R

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
The woman's death could have been prevented had the airline acted more appropriately. They denied the passenger oxygen, failed to deliver oxygen when it was finally approved, and didn't even land the plane when she allegedly died.

Not at all. Oxygen is a drug, and it should only be given under medical supervision, or where there is good reason - although side effects are few, oxygen given without appropriate control can be fatal to people with lung disease.

It sounds like the airline was absolutely correct. They can't expect crew to be doctors or nurses, and they have guidelines which they gave to staff. When the crew weren't sure, they went to check.

The thing is, that if the woman really did ask for oxygen 'because she had diabetes' then that is a totally inappropriate request, as diabetes isn't treated with oxygen. If she had, in fact, said that she had suddenly developed severe shortness of breath, then that's different - and oxygen might be appropriate in that circumstance.

Are you out of your mind?

She was COULDN'T BREATH AND ASKED FOR OXYGEN!!!

No time to run through bulls**t formalities. And besides, even after they got approval the oxygen tanks were empty!! "By that time the situation was worsening, and they immediately began administering oxygen,"

And they DIDN'T LAND THE PLANE AFTER SHE SUPPOSEDLY DIED.

She was NEVER legally pronounced dead. "Carine Desir, 44, was pronounced dead Friday on a nearly full Haiti-to-New York flight by a pediatrician" You know when someone has heart attack, stops breathing, dies, but is still sent to the hospital for revival tactics?

"...that two emergency medical technicians performed CPR on Desir, a diabetic."

Because you want to ensure that EVERYTHING was done to save the life. There's plenty of cases where people have survived under extreme conditions which is exactly why all methods are exhausted before the d word is laid out.

...In addition, the airline did NOT have a working defibrillator "Wilson and Shulkin said the defibrillator indicated Desir's heartbeat was too weak for the unit to work. Shulkin declined to provide additional detail, out of concern for Desir's family."

Stop jumping to conclusions, there is more than one side to every story.

 

[Thump553]

So many people are rushing to judgment here based on partial, probably inaccurate evidence it is pathetic. This is for certain going to end up in court, the real deciders should hear all the evidence.

So far I've hard two diameterically opposed stories. One says the airline refused treatment, that both the oxygen bottles on the plane were empty and the defibulator didn't work.

The other story (from the airline) says there were twelve oxygen bottles on the plane, all worked and the defibulator worked.

The news reports say she was treated by one or two doctors and one or two nurses (I don't remember the exact numbers). It shouldn't be hard to determine which story is actually true, but it's outriight silly to rush to judgment at this point based on scanty (and probably sensationalistic) reports.

There's probably a good stock play in selling American Airlines short until the cable news channels find another story to run.

 

[LTC8K6]

Once again, it's pretty unlikely that an airliner took off with any empty oxygen bottles. The flight attendants need these oxygen bottles in the event of a decompression so they can breathe and walk around assisting the passengers and any children, etc., with their emergency masks. The bottles are checked and you can't fly without the required number in good working order. The bottles also have gauges right on them.

A defibrillator will not shock a person with a stopped heart or with normal but weak heartbeat. It's only a defibrillator.

I very much doubt the relative's story.

It sounds like the oxygen didn't help, and the automatic defibrillator decided a shock was not necessary or would not help.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: misle
Since when is Oxygen the magic cure for heart disease?

It is not, it is a help keep them alive until they can get to proper medical attention.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: misle
Since when is Oxygen the magic cure for heart disease?

It is not, it is a help keep them alive until they can get to proper medical attention.

No it wouldn't. Oxygen isn't going to keep her heart going if she had a heart.

 

[Mark R]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic
Are you out of your mind?

She was COULDN'T BREATH AND ASKED FOR OXYGEN!!!

No time to run through bulls**t formalities. And besides, even after they got approval the oxygen tanks were empty!! And they DIDN'T LAND THE PLANE AFTER SHE SUPPOSEDLY DIED.

She was NEVER legally pronounced dead. You know when someone has heart attack, stops breathing, dies, but is still sent to the hospital for revival tactics?

Because you want to ensure that EVERYTHING was done to save the life. There's plenty of cases where people have survived under extreme conditions which is exactly why all methods are exhausted before the d word is laid out.

The point is that oxygen is classed as a prescription medication. You can't expect someone who isn't medically trained to dispense oxygen to anyone who asks for it, just because they're short of breath without a known reason to oxygen.

It's slightly different if you pitch up to the ER, or a paramedic ambulance attends, and they give oxygen - they at least know how to monitor its use, and to provide associated treatment, including assessment by someone who can try to determine the underlying diagnosis.

It was absolutely appropriate for the cabin crew to seek further advice before simply giving the oxygen, as it's administration really needs to be supervised, unless there is a recognised pre-existing condition for which instructions are available (either in a doctor's letter, or in pre-agreed guidelines).

It's also perfectly reasonable not to land the plane after she died. Diverting a plane is extremely expensive and inconvenient. If she was pronounced dead, then there is no longer any urgency to seek medical treatment - it avoids inconveniencing hundreds (or even thousands) of passengers and scheduled passengers, and the hundreds of $k in costs to the airline. By all means try to land the plane, if the person is still alive and in need of medical care, and it's reasonable to incur whatever costs are involved, as there is a life that may be saved.

It says in the article that there were 2 doctors present. Any doctor can legally pronounce death, if they have examined the body.

It's all well and good doing 'everything' but every doctor knows that there are times when you have to stop. If someone has no pulse, then if the pulse can't be restored with treatment (including shock, if appropriate - and it wasn't in this case, because the AED didn't fire), and CPR has gone on for a good period, then every passing minute makes it less and less likely that the pulse will be restored (especially, if no treatment for the underlying cause was available). Considering how long it would take to land the plane, and get an ambulance to take her to hospital, I can't see why the decision to pronounce was unreasonable.

This is a tragic case, but I really don't see that anything was done incorrectly. It sounds as if this lady had diabetes, and had unknown severe heart disease, and she died from a massive heart attack.

 

[LTC8K6]

The F/A's are in fact trained to use the oxygen bottles and the medical kits in the event of illness or injury. Airlines have specific procedures on when to administer oxygen to an ill passenger.