Woah, a brawl at Sox-Yanks game

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: Thump553
I'm a reformed Red Sox fan, and a lifelong Yankee hater. I've been to Red Sox-Yankee games at both Fenway and Yankee Stadium. Fenway was a lot more enjoyable and civilized.

Personally I think these sport rivalries are 95% hookum designed to generate interest and ticket sales.

As a yankee fan I've also been to both Fenway and Yankee stadium and I can also claim that Yankee stadium was a lot more civilized than Fenway. Maybe, just maybe, it depends on what uniform you're wearing

Same here, been to both. Yankee Stadium>Fenway. But then again, I'm a Yankee fan. However, Fenway does have a certain charm (for lack of a better word) that I did not experience in any other stadium (I've been to quite a few).

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Soccer55

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Good examples of a power pitcher would be Wood, Prior, Unit, Clemens, Flash Gordon, Rivera, Gagne, Harden, Pedro, Schill, and Santana just to name a few. Greg Maddux is not a prototypical power pitcher, neither is Jamie Moyer. Hudson I wouldn't put in that category b/c of his low K/9 and total K's, Mulder as well.

You just named at least 5 power pitchers that are better than Pedro: Wood, Prior, Randy Johnson, Clemens, and Gagne. So how can Pedro be in the top 3 this year? Here are some stats that will make your rebuttal difficult.

K/9 = 9*(K/IP) found on MLB.com

Wood: 61.2 IP, 2.48 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 71 K, 10.36 K/9
Prior: 43.2 IP, 3.92 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 49 K, 10.10 K/9
Johnson: 151.1 IP, 2.68 ERA, 0.89 WHIP, 174 K, 10.15 K/9
Clemens: 129.1 IP, 2.85 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 133 K, 9.26 K/9
Gagne: 46.2 IP, 1.54 ERA, 0.75 WHIP, 70 K, 13.5 K/9
Pedro: 136.2 IP, 4.15 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 132 K, 8.69 K/9

So using 5 pitchers that you named as good examples of power pitchers, Pedro's numbers this year do not stack up. Pedro has the highest ERA, 2nd highest WHIP (Prior is higher by 0.03), and the lowest K/9. In fact, aside from Clemens, he's not really that close to any of the other 4 in terms of K/9 which you deem so important for a power pitcher. Comments?

-Tom

EDIT: If you don't like the fact that Prior and Wood have been injured this year and consequently haven't pitched many innings, I could always use their numbers from last year to illustrate my point even further.

Were we talking about the AL? Reading is an important skill in life. That's why I said:

"Yes but Pedro is still top 3 in the league in K's, K/9, 4th in WHIP, and 13th in ERA (which should improve). He is still an extremely dominant pitcher even without the 96mph heater, and has changed the way he pitches. Not many players can change the way they pitch toward the end of their career and remain dominant. He's still easily a top 3 power pitcher behind Schilling and maybe J.Santana(having monster year) in the AL.

I even said AL at the end just to make sure you understood that the stats I was quoting from were from the AL. All of the stats I quoted above were in comparison to other pitchers in the AL, of course the NL has many better power pitchers. The list I compiled of power pitchers above were just to give you an example of what a prototypical power pitcher is, mainly somone who strikes out alot of batters with a good fastball (at least 92/93+) and other good stuff to go along with it. Hudson and Mulder are arguably NOT power pitchers b/c of their lower than avg K/9 ratio, and are more like an Andy Pettite type who pitches with finesse but still has a decent fastball.

 

[Soccer55]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Soccer55

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Good examples of a power pitcher would be Wood, Prior, Unit, Clemens, Flash Gordon, Rivera, Gagne, Harden, Pedro, Schill, and Santana just to name a few. Greg Maddux is not a prototypical power pitcher, neither is Jamie Moyer. Hudson I wouldn't put in that category b/c of his low K/9 and total K's, Mulder as well.

You just named at least 5 power pitchers that are better than Pedro: Wood, Prior, Randy Johnson, Clemens, and Gagne. So how can Pedro be in the top 3 this year? Here are some stats that will make your rebuttal difficult.

K/9 = 9*(K/IP) found on MLB.com

Wood: 61.2 IP, 2.48 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 71 K, 10.36 K/9
Prior: 43.2 IP, 3.92 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 49 K, 10.10 K/9
Johnson: 151.1 IP, 2.68 ERA, 0.89 WHIP, 174 K, 10.15 K/9
Clemens: 129.1 IP, 2.85 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 133 K, 9.26 K/9
Gagne: 46.2 IP, 1.54 ERA, 0.75 WHIP, 70 K, 13.5 K/9
Pedro: 136.2 IP, 4.15 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 132 K, 8.69 K/9

So using 5 pitchers that you named as good examples of power pitchers, Pedro's numbers this year do not stack up. Pedro has the highest ERA, 2nd highest WHIP (Prior is higher by 0.03), and the lowest K/9. In fact, aside from Clemens, he's not really that close to any of the other 4 in terms of K/9 which you deem so important for a power pitcher. Comments?

-Tom

EDIT: If you don't like the fact that Prior and Wood have been injured this year and consequently haven't pitched many innings, I could always use their numbers from last year to illustrate my point even further.

Were we talking about the AL? Reading is an important skill in life. That's why I said:

"Yes but Pedro is still top 3 in the league in K's, K/9, 4th in WHIP, and 13th in ERA (which should improve). He is still an extremely dominant pitcher even without the 96mph heater, and has changed the way he pitches. Not many players can change the way they pitch toward the end of their career and remain dominant. He's still easily a top 3 power pitcher behind Schilling and maybe J.Santana(having monster year) in the AL.

I even said AL at the end just to make sure you understood that the stats I was quoting from were from the AL. All of the stats I quoted above were in comparison to other pitchers in the AL, of course the NL has many better power pitchers. The list I compiled of power pitchers above were just to give you an example of what a prototypical power pitcher is, mainly somone who strikes out alot of batters with a good fastball (at least 92/93+) and other good stuff to go along with it. Hudson and Mulder are arguably NOT power pitchers b/c of their lower than avg K/9 ratio, and are more like an Andy Pettite type who pitches with finesse but still has a decent fastball.

So where exactly in the following post did you put the letters AL?

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Just got back from the O's/Bosox game, I left in the 7th inning b/c it was pouring rain and Boston was up 12-2. Total asswhipping they laid on the O's, and Pedro was dominant and back to regular form. Who were the morons that were saying he has lost his stuff? You didn't watch the game tonight, to quote ESPN.com: The right-hander came in 0-2 with a 8.66 ERA in three starts against Baltimore this season, but in this game he looked every bit like a three-time Cy Young Award winner -- until the rain came.

"A game like that, I didn't want to leave him out there longer than I thought he needed to be out there," Boston manager Terry Francona said. "I thought he pitched great."

After six innings Pedro had only given up a Tejada HR, and should have been taken out with the score 12-2 by Francona after 6 innings (right about when I left). Of course Francona leaves him in for the 7th, when he should have pulled him out for protection, wtf? He gave up 3 in the 7th and felt a little pain, wtg Francona (or should we say Grady Little lol)?

The highlights of the night was Manny making an insane running backhand catch on the run to rob someone Mora of a double, the ridiculous clubbing the Bosox dished out (13 hits/12runs), and when Lee Mazzili walked the bases loaded by intentionally walking Nomar to get to the scorching red hot Kevin Millar. Of course Millar walked in another run b/c the pitcher was scared to put one over the plate (he had doubled the AB before). And the O's wonder why they have the worst record at home?

Other notes from today: RIVER BLEW HIS SECOND SAVE IN A ROW at Toronto... he's lucky one of his old fogey friends (Clark, not Sierra or Bernie or Enrique or El Duque) bailed him out in the 10th. Are you sweatin' yet Wankee fans?

Even better from ESPN.com about the game, this is a perfect summary of the typical asswipe Wankee fan: "A Yankees fan was ejected from SkyDome after stealing a foul popup from first baseman Delgado in the second. Delgado and the fan both reached up for a foul fly down the first-base line at the same time, with the fan snaring it clean. Delgado then angrily slapped the ball out of the fan's glove with his own glove, knocking the ball loose. He glared at the fan before throwing the ball to the crowd. Spectators in Yankee jerseys high-fived the fan and applauded him when he was escorted out." If I was at the game and was a Jays fan, I would have smacked the btch silly when he got up to go get a beer (if he had gotten away with it and wasn't ejected). There's no place for sht like that in baseball no matter what team you root for.

Last but not least, I'm glad to see I ruffled alot of Wankee feathers with my astute statistical analysis. The facts are the facts, you can't argue with statistics (i.e. Pedro doubling Hudson's K/9, and having 2.x more K/9 than Mulder) . If they make you mad, then you should do your own research and counter my arguments, i.e. Wankers like jaydee say things like "If I was half the stats guy you are, I could find all stats in the world that prove the red sox can't field a groundball and throw it to first base consistently." Wankee fans talk a big talk, but are too lazy to walk the walk! Also, the ranting immature soliliquoys really don't add anything intelligent to the debate, i.e. "U R teh 1337 b@5eb@11 f4n w00t!!". It's analogous to a gangster thug talking in ebonics at a nuclear fusion presentation, "huh?".

The highlight of these posts has to be Argo arguing that ARod is the best player in the league. *snicker* Or the twits that think Hudson is a better "power pitcher" (and I use that term loosely with him) with a 4.31K/9 ratio (Pedro and Schilling are around double that!) and a fastball that tops out at 92 (I saw Pedro hit 93/94 on the radar consistently tonight). The best power pitcher on the A's staff is Rich Harden, he throws 96mph (like Pedro in his glory days) consistently and I've seen him hit 98/99 against Boston last year in the playoffs. He's only 22, and will be scary in a couple of years, already averaging 8.42 K/9 (Pedro and Schilling type numbers). That is the true def of a POWER PITCHER, blowing hitters away with a good fastball and fooling them with good stuff to complement it which equates to a high amount of K's. Good examples of a power pitcher would be Wood, Prior, Unit, Clemens, Flash Gordon, Rivera, Gagne, Harden, Pedro, Schill, and Santana just to name a few. Greg Maddux is not a prototypical power pitcher, neither is Jamie Moyer. Hudson I wouldn't put in that category b/c of his low K/9 and total K's, Mulder as well.

Nowhere in this post did you talk about Pedro being top 3 in the AL only. Then you give a bunch of examples of power pitchers from the NL. Besides, Schilling, Harden, and Santana are better power pitchers in the AL than Pedro.....let me know if you want those stats.

-Tom

 

[Soccer55]

Ya know what? Screw it.....here are the stats:

Pedro: 136.2 IP, 4.15 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 132 K, 8.69 K/9
Schilling: 138.2 IP, 3.37 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 128 K, 8.31 K/9
Santana: 138.2 IP, 3.44 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 155 K, 10.06 K/9
Harden: 113.1 IP, 3.97 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 106 K, 8.42 K/9

So let's see.....Santana blows everyone away in K/9, but Pedro has a higher WHIP than Schilling or Santana and the highest ERA of the 4 pitchers. The only pitcher here that Pedro could compare to stats-wise is Harden, and I'd probably take Harden over Pedro due to Harden having a fastball that is a few mph faster and lower ERA. For the record, out of these 4 pitchers Pedro has also given up the most R this year (total R, not ER as ER is obvious from the ERA) and throws the 2nd most pitches/IP (which usually means fewer IP in a given game).

-Tom

EDIT: Here are some more facts: Of these 4 pitchers, Pedro also has the 3rd most hits/9 (Schilling being higher), 3rd most BB/9 (Harden being higher), the 3rd highest BAA (Schilling being higher), and he's hit the most batters (almost double the next closest)

Here is a link to the page on MLB.com that I got these stats from. I also added in Mark Mulder for Argo (couldn't add Hudson and Garcia too as it only lets you compare 5 players)

 

[Argo]

Originally posted by: Soccer55
Ya know what? Screw it.....here are the stats:

Pedro: 136.2 IP, 4.15 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 132 K, 8.69 K/9
Schilling: 138.2 IP, 3.37 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 128 K, 8.31 K/9
Santana: 138.2 IP, 3.44 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 155 K, 10.06 K/9
Harden: 113.1 IP, 3.97 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 106 K, 8.42 K/9

So let's see.....Santana blows everyone away in K/9, but Pedro has a higher WHIP than Schilling or Santana and the highest ERA of the 4 pitchers. The only pitcher here that Pedro could compare to stats-wise is Harden, and I'd probably take Harden over Pedro due to Harden having a fastball that is a few mph faster and lower ERA. For the record, out of these 4 pitchers Pedro has also given up the most R this year (total R, not ER as ER is obvious from the ERA) and throws the 2nd most pitches/IP (which usually means fewer IP in a given game).

-Tom

I'd also add Mulder and Hundson to this list. Both are power pitchers, although they don't strike out quite as many guys because they throw mostly sinkers. Freddy Garcia also belongs on that list. In my opinion, K's don't mean jack. Some pitchers are strikeout pitchers, while others aren't. ERA and BAA are the only 2 significant stats for a pitcher.

 

[Soccer55]

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: Soccer55
Ya know what? Screw it.....here are the stats:

Pedro: 136.2 IP, 4.15 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 132 K, 8.69 K/9
Schilling: 138.2 IP, 3.37 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 128 K, 8.31 K/9
Santana: 138.2 IP, 3.44 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 155 K, 10.06 K/9
Harden: 113.1 IP, 3.97 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 106 K, 8.42 K/9

So let's see.....Santana blows everyone away in K/9, but Pedro has a higher WHIP than Schilling or Santana and the highest ERA of the 4 pitchers. The only pitcher here that Pedro could compare to stats-wise is Harden, and I'd probably take Harden over Pedro due to Harden having a fastball that is a few mph faster and lower ERA. For the record, out of these 4 pitchers Pedro has also given up the most R this year (total R, not ER as ER is obvious from the ERA) and throws the 2nd most pitches/IP (which usually means fewer IP in a given game).

-Tom

I'd also add Mulder and Hundson to this list. Both are power pitchers, although they don't strike out quite as many guys because they throw mostly sinkers. Freddy Garcia also belongs on that list. In my opinion, K's don't mean jack. Some pitchers are strikeout pitchers, while others aren't. ERA and BAA are the only 2 significant stats for a pitcher.

See my edit then.....I added BAA and a couple of others.

-Tom

 

[NYHoustonman]

Pedro is one of the better power pitchers in the AL. It's funny how everyone forgets how good he is. There have been a few starts where he has (dare I say experimented) pitched slower, and those are the games where he get's lit up. Otherwise, he's the same old pitcher, slightly less 'power,' more 'finesse,'Mulder and Hudson aren't really power pitchers. They pitch hard stuff, but I would consider them more finesse.

 

[Soccer55]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Pedro is one of the better power pitchers in the AL. It's funny how everyone forgets how good he is. There have been a few starts where he has (dare I say experimented) pitched slower, and those are the games where he get's lit up. Otherwise, he's the same old pitcher, slightly less 'power,' more 'finesse,'Mulder and Hudson aren't really power pitchers. They pitch hard stuff, but I would consider them more finesse.

I don't disagree, he's still one of the better pitchers in the AL and I'm glad that I have him on my fantasy team.....but I don't think he's one of the top 3 power pitchers in the AL anymore. Without a doubt, top 10 in the AL, possibly top 5.

-Tom

 

[user1234]

go yankees !

 

[RedPickle]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Even better from ESPN.com about the game, this is a perfect summary of the typical asswipe Wankee fan: "A Yankees fan was ejected from SkyDome after stealing a foul popup from first baseman Delgado in the second. Delgado and the fan both reached up for a foul fly down the first-base line at the same time, with the fan snaring it clean. Delgado then angrily slapped the ball out of the fan's glove with his own glove, knocking the ball loose. He glared at the fan before throwing the ball to the crowd. Spectators in Yankee jerseys high-fived the fan and applauded him when he was escorted out." If I was at the game and was a Jays fan, I would have smacked the btch silly when he got up to go get a beer (if he had gotten away with it and wasn't ejected). There's no place for sht like that in baseball no matter what team you root for.

Wow. If you were a fan of sports and you went to a baseball game, sat in the front row and was looking up in the air while a foul was heading toward you, are you going to look and see if maybe a player is going to reach in and grab it? Ball in foul territory is fair game. Go cry more.

 

[stickybytes]

Pedro is a finese pitcher now. He doesn't need to blow by people to be succesful. I don't know how many times broadcasters use the word "artist" to describe his pitching style now. I've even heard some of them say he is a even better "pitcher" now because he relies on strategies and pitches rather than plainly trying to blow past people.

If you look at how pedro pitches, you notice he mixes things up, inside out, high and low. After some hard stuff, he throws a breaking ball. Then he strikes you out with imo, the best changeup in baseball.

 

[Brule]

Originally posted by: stickybytes
Pedro is a finese pitcher now. He doesn't need to blow by people to be succesful. I don't know how many times broadcasters use the word "artist" to describe his pitching style now. I've even heard some of them say he is a even better "pitcher" now because he relies on strategies and pitches rather than plainly trying to blow past people.

If you look at how pedro pitches, you notice he mixes things up, inside out, high and low. After some hard stuff, he throws a breaking ball. Then he strikes you out with imo, the best changeup in baseball.

I somewhat agree with you, but at times he forgets that he has a fastball. He's at his best when his pitch selection is a roll of a die. When he has his pinpoint control, and is getting the calls on the corners, he doesn't need anything but his fastball and changeup. What amazed me was when he could pitch just breaking balls and strike people out, which he did for a few games last year. It seems like you know how well Pedro will do based on the speed of his fastball in the first inning. If it is too fast, he's trying to hard and will get lit up. Too slow and he's being conservitive. In the perfect middle, .

 

[Ynog]

Ignoring all the comments about Pedro vs A-Rod, whose the bigger primadona, etc. etc. etc.

What do you think of the suspensions/discipliine?

Yankees:

Alex Rodriguez 4 Games, $2000 Fine
Tanyon Sturtze 3 Games, $1000 Fine
Kenny Lofton $500 Fine


Boston:

Jason Varitek 4 Games, $2000 Fine
Gabe Kapler 3 Games, $1000 Fine
Trot Nixon 3 Games, $1000 Fine
David Ortiz $500 Fine
Curt Schilling $500 Fine

Personally I think the suspensions should be minus 1 game for each player. But I guess MLB
is trying to make a stand with this one.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: stickybytes
Pedro is a finese pitcher now. He doesn't need to blow by people to be succesful. I don't know how many times broadcasters use the word "artist" to describe his pitching style now. I've even heard some of them say he is a even better "pitcher" now because he relies on strategies and pitches rather than plainly trying to blow past people.

If you look at how pedro pitches, you notice he mixes things up, inside out, high and low. After some hard stuff, he throws a breaking ball. Then he strikes you out with imo, the best changeup in baseball.

The best changeup in baseball belongs to Gagne.

 

[purbeast0]

baseball sucks ... but anyways, where is the video of this?!?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Ynog
Ignoring all the comments about Pedro vs A-Rod, whose the bigger primadona, etc. etc. etc.

What do you think of the suspensions/discipliine?

Yankees:

Alex Rodriguez 4 Games, $2000 Fine
Tanyon Sturtze 3 Games, $1000 Fine
Kenny Lofton $500 Fine


Boston:

Jason Varitek 4 Games, $2000 Fine
Gabe Kapler 3 Games, $1000 Fine
Trot Nixon 3 Games, $1000 Fine
David Ortiz $500 Fine
Curt Schilling $500 Fine

Personally I think the suspensions should be minus 1 game for each player. But I guess MLB
is trying to make a stand with this one.

I think they're appropriate except Kapler should have gotten less, he was really just defending himself. Trot got the appropriate fine since he jumped in swinging, and Ortiz swung. Schilling should not have been fined, he was no more guilty than any of the other players trying to pull each other off. Didn't see what Loften did so can't comment on it.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Ynog
Ignoring all the comments about Pedro vs A-Rod, whose the bigger primadona, etc. etc. etc.

What do you think of the suspensions/discipliine?

Yankees:

Alex Rodriguez 4 Games, $2000 Fine
Tanyon Sturtze 3 Games, $1000 Fine
Kenny Lofton $500 Fine


Boston:

Jason Varitek 4 Games, $2000 Fine
Gabe Kapler 3 Games, $1000 Fine
Trot Nixon 3 Games, $1000 Fine
David Ortiz $500 Fine
Curt Schilling $500 Fine

Personally I think the suspensions should be minus 1 game for each player. But I guess MLB
is trying to make a stand with this one.

I think they're appropriate except Kapler should have gotten less, he was really just defending himself. Trot got the appropriate fine since he jumped in swinging, and Ortiz swung. Schilling should not have been fined, he was no more guilty than any of the other players trying to pull each other off. Didn't see what Loften did so can't comment on it.

I don't think Kapler should have gotten anything.
Trot should've gotten double what he actually did get.
Schilling was in the thick of it, he only started pulling people apart at the end.

 

[Brule]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
I don't think Kapler should have gotten anything.
Trot should've gotten double what he actually did get.
Schilling was in the thick of it, he only started pulling people apart at the end.

What did Trot do to deserve more than the two big guns? I may have missed something but I saw him ripping an arm from around Kapler's neck. Kapler should get nothing, I was somewhat shocked when he was included. Schilling did about as much as 1/2 of each team, him and Lofton shouldn't have had anything. Nixon won't be playing in the outfield for awhile, maybe the rest of the year so his suspension won't mean much. Kapler is playing well but still isn't a daily starter, or deserves to be in my book. Four games for A-Rod and Varitek was expected but still a bit heavy. Does anyone on either team really want huge suspensions from this?