Woah, a brawl at Sox-Yanks game

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: wkabel23

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous
Text

:thumbsup:

What was their payroll again?

Boston? ~130 mill, second highest in the majors, iirc.

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Kind of funny that ThePresence is the only true NYY fan who sticks around in this thread to take the verbal assault. *hats off to ya man* The rest are licking their wounds hiding behind their Derek Jeter desktop wallpaper, reliving the past.

Or sleeping :roll: A few games mid-season really don't matter, I don't know why sux fans are gloating so much. I guess this is as good as it gets in Boston. And how could anyone call Rodriguez the biggest primadonna in baseball? You know of Pedro Martinez, yes?

Um Pedro is 3rd in the league in K/9, and 4th in WHIP (one behind Schill). He's in the top 3 in total K's (one behind Schill), he has shown no sign on fatigue or injury like years past. And this is supposed to be an off year for Pedro. Also, Pedro has had the best 2 years regarding dominance (ERA+) of any pitcher in history. No, he's not a prima donna.

ARod, on the other hand, is [a prima donna]. And I don't just say that b/c he's a hothead who can't get over himself b/c he thought Arroyo, a pitcher leading the majors in hit batters/game%, hit him intentionally b/c he had an RBI single off Foulke the night before. Please, GET OVER YOURSELF already! Sox pitchers don't give a fck about you!

But don't take it from me, take it from ESPN.com: "Rodriguez still gets a bit too anxious to do great things with every at-bat, as evidenced by his pedestrian .276 average with runners in scoring position. Pitchers are willing to take their chances against him in key situations because he's averaged a strikeout every 4.8 at-bats the last four seasons. " or "As a baserunner, A-Rod probably never again will be a 40-40 player, but he's a smart runner who rarely makes mistakes."

So let me get this straight, Texas was paying 25mil/year for a guy who will never be a 40/40 player again (he actually only did it once lol), and only bats .276 with RISP?? A guy who strikes out almost once every 4.8 ABs (21%) of the time? For a guy who traditionally does not hit good pitching well and "pads" his stats against sht teams/pitching (i.e. in the past 3 years from 2002-present he hit .337 in 101AB vs Baltimore, .386/101AB vs Cleveland, .333/108AB vs Detroit, and .369/111AB vs Toronto)??

Furthermore, he goes to NY and: 1)currently has a .968 fielding percentage with 8 errors (as many as he made ALL YEAR at SS with TX, yes he's playing a new position but so fcking what he's the highest paid player in baseball DEAL WITH IT and adjust like the greats did), 2)He's tied for 8th in the league in K's (he has more than Eckstein/Vlad COMBINED or Palmeiro/Tejada COMBINED) and only batting .280 (lowest of his career), 3)only bats .267 career off righties, and .264 from 2002-present(past 3 years) with 66 of his 82 K's against righties this year, 4) batting .231 with RISP this year, .167 at Fenway(which is why he brought to NY, to beat Boston) the past 3 years and .222 this year!

Boston has mostly a right handed rotation which could be what makes him so bad at Fenway...

This all equates to a PRIMA DONNA WHO SHOULD NOT BE THE HIGHEST PAID PLAYER IN BASEBALL. Period.

Edit: For the salary of ARod you could have Prior (3mil)/Wood (8mil) /Schilling (12 mil). And you would still have 2 mil to spare, maybe make a deal for Lidge of the Stros who makes only 360K but has 83K's in 53 innings! 25 Mil goes a LONG way. Sht you could get Big Unit/Wood or Big Unit/Prior/5mil for closer for the price of prima donna ARod.

Stats have nothing to do with status as a primadonna. Pedro can't get enough of himself and I believe he might not quite be playing with a full deck anymore. You see his antics with the crowd last series (~month back) in the Stadium? Not to mention acting like the world's dumbest thug, beaning people all the time... The only thing missing from the WWF wrestler image is screaming when interviewed :roll: He really hurts the game acting the way he does.

As far as who deserves what salary and has what skills - Pedro, being a starting pitcher, plays in one out of every five games. Not that he should play more, that's what starting pitchers do, but still... Rodriguez does it all exquisitely; hits for average, hits for power, can run/steal, is a ball-magnet wherever you put him defensively, and gives every play his all unlike many American players, Manny being the best example. (is anyone else still in shock that Boston has trouble getting rid of not just a consistent 300 hitter, but a consistent *330s and up* hitter who hits for massive power as well? Ramirez's picture is next to "dick" in the dictionary...) Yes, Rodriguez had an adjustment period in April & May. It will color his stats for the year, though he's evening it out admirably. He's without a doubt the best player in baseball. As good as he is though, I'd rather see the money going toward starting pitching. But Steinbrenner is a fool.

Quick comment on Manny... Way to ignore virtually every article written on him this year. He is not near an asshole at this point, and apparently to his teammates he never was, he just used to shut out the press. Besides that, he has made some good plays defensively and has hustled alot more. He failed to run out a single fly ball at Fenway this weekend, I know this, don't bring it up, it means nothing. He's the best hitter in the AL, and an average fielder. And, yeah, the reason nobody bit during the offseason was, as previously mentioned, his salary.

ALLOW ME TO REITERATE... MANNY IS NOT A MEAN PERSON. THERE IS NOT A PLAYER IN BASEBALL WHO WOULD BE LIKELY TO AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT. MOST OF HIS TEAMMATES HAVE LOVED HIM.

Boston? ~130 mill, second highest in the majors, iirc.

The two aren't even close. Boston is second, but a distant second, alot closer to the more 'down to earth' payrolls in the sport.

Martinez could have dodged Zimmer, he could have just grabbed & held him, tried to calm him down a bit, could have handled it better in any number of ways. Instead he threw him down to the ground. He's an elderly man. No different than if he did it to a woman or a child. Let's not forget that Zim charged in the first place because he felt so strongly about it due to having been nearly killed by being beaned. Pedro, ever the idiotic thug, was egging everyone on by gesturing that his intentions were to bean Posada.

Sure, he could be a woman or a child... But that woman or child easily outweighs Pedro. Let's not forget, Pedro isn't a big guy. Sure, he was wrong to go as far as tossing Zimmer to the ground, but IMO Zimmer outweighed this by charging in the first place. So, Zimmer is a big fat asshole idiot thuggish manwhore. There.

And, yea, Sp33Demon won the debate .




As far as ARod, Bonds is clearly better at this point in time. Before this season, I would have said ARod was right up there with Guerrero and Bonds, but I think him struggling (I use this word lightly) in the spotlight has really taken away from his past achievements. Sure, he can come back and finish the season well, but right now I can't see having him up there. IMO Vlad is the best in the AL overall (Manny/Ortiz is still MVP though ).

 

[Gurck]

sp33d won nothing, I refuse to argue anymore with someone so out of touch with reality. Likely a 15 year old too, judging by his substitution of e's with 3's. U no wut i meen??//?/

 

[ThePresence]

Okay, this discussion is going downhill fast. Here it is in a nutshell from a diehard Yankee fan:
1. The Sox beat us this weekend. Yes, they even got to Mariano.
2. We got to Foulke.
3. We are 7.5 games ahead.
4. Arod is a damn good baseball player, one of the best in the game, and one that Boston was trying really hard to get. And when they didn't get him their fans were really down on Henry and Epstein, so quit dissing Arod, you wanted him just as bad.
5. Boston cannot play defense.
6. Hope to see you guys in the playoffs, should be fun.
7. Sit down and have a :beer: to chill out.

 

[DoctorCarta]

anyone know where i can download a video clip of this fight?

Thx

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by: DoctorCarta
anyone know where i can download a video clip of this fight?

Thx

It was on the Red Sox website Saturday night and Sunday, but it may be down now.

 

[Brule]

Originally posted by: DoctorCarta
anyone know where i can download a video clip of this fight?

Thx

If you google the Boston dirt dogs you may find it, I have it somewhere here....

Originally posted by: Argo
Brule: here's the reason why I think A-rod is the best player in baseball, he:

1) Bats .300, although right now it's only .280 take out miserable month of april and he's .300
2) He hits 50+ home runs per season
3) He plays gold glove defense at one of the games most demanding positions SS. Now he switched to the 2nd most demanding position, for the first time in his career and he's still solid defensively.
4) He has a great arm, one of the best in the game
5) He steals bases, 19 so far this season (thrown out only once), was 40-40 man earlier in his career.

If this isn't the best player in baseball, then I don't know who is.

Well, I previously mentioned Bonds, who I can't imagine putting anyone next to no matter my personal opinon of the man. I still don't understand the A-Rod hype though, and I was one Boston fan who was very much against getting him the entire offseason. Mostly because I think Manny is overlooked for his pure production and numbers.

Counting out Manny, Bonds, and Pujols and there are still several players that are very good more similar to A-Rod. Ichiero (or however he is spelled) has a cannon for an arm, great fielding, fast fast and fast, and he can hit just about any pitch. A-Rod seems to be more of a fastball hitter, but I have not seen enough Yankee games this year to say anything for sure. Even the man they traded, Soriano, is a 40-40 guy who will be an all star for some time if he improves his offensive a tad. The real test will be when the stretch and then the playoffs come. On paper the Yankee's team doesn't even look good, but they're monster big game players. If your third baseman turns it on then, maybe he deserves a name on the ballot for AL MVP. Do you expect him to hit 50 homers and bat .320 next year, along with completely adjusting to third?

 

[Argo]

Bonds isn't as good defensively as A-rod, doesn't have the same speed anymore and plays less imprtant defensive position: LF.
Manny is a defensive liability (com'n, admit it we've all manny drop routine fly-balls), doesn't have speed.
Pujols - doesn't have speed. Isn't as good a defender as A-rod and plays less important defensive position - 1st base.
Ichiro - doesn't have nearly as much power as A-rod.

The only player that for a while had a chance to be like A-rod was Soriano. However, he has defensive lapses and never learned to take a walk. He has also leveled off the last 2 years and is 28 years old, so chances are he won't get much better. Hope that explains my point

To answer your last question, I think it's very likely a-rod will hit 50hr this and next seasons if he stays healthy. I doubt he'll bat .320, but .300 is very likely.

 

[stickybytes]

Originally posted by: Argo
Bonds isn't as good defensively as A-rod, doesn't have the same speed anymore and plays less imprtant defensive position: LF.
Manny is a defensive liability (com'n, admit it we've all manny drop routine fly-balls), doesn't have speed.
Pujols - doesn't have speed. Isn't as good a defender as A-rod and plays less important defensive position - 1st base.
Ichiro - doesn't have nearly as much power as A-rod.

The only player that for a while had a chance to be like A-rod was Soriano. However, he has defensive lapses and never learned to take a walk. He has also leveled off the last 2 years and is 28 years old, so chances are he won't get much better. Hope that explains my point

To answer your last question, I think it's very likely a-rod will hit 50hr this and next seasons if he stays healthy. I doubt he'll bat .320, but .300 is very likely.

Very true point about soriano. He had true potential to be a 40/40 guy, only became a 30/30 but imo, he has the skills to be a 50/50 guy. But its too late for that now, he's no longer a 25 year old and GM's will not let a guy with the potential of 40 hr's to risk his career by stealing bases and hurting some part of his body. His defense was horrendous during his few years as a yankee 2nd basemen but he has improved tremendously recently. He still however does not walk much and he strikes out way too much. Plus, you never what soriano shows up during the playoffs. You don't have to ask me, just look at his performance last october. That becomes a major liability for a team that is a contender.

 

[RedPickle]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Okay, this discussion is going downhill fast. Here it is in a nutshell from a diehard Yankee fan:
1. The Sox beat us this weekend. Yes, they even got to Mariano.
2. We got to Foulke.
3. We are 7.5 games ahead.
4. Arod is a damn good baseball player, one of the best in the game, and one that Boston was trying really hard to get. And when they didn't get him their fans were really down on Henry and Epstein, so quit dissing Arod, you wanted him just as bad.
5. Boston cannot play defense.
6. Hope to see you guys in the playoffs, should be fun.
7. Sit down and have a :beer: to chill out.

You forgot a couple of things:

2. We also got Schilling.
4. Boston wanted Jose Contreras as well.
5. Boston's bullpen can not hold a lead.
6. As a wild card team at best.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Argo
Bonds isn't as good defensively as A-rod, doesn't have the same speed anymore and plays less imprtant defensive position: LF.
Manny is a defensive liability (com'n, admit it we've all manny drop routine fly-balls), doesn't have speed.

I disagree. Manny may not be the best defensive OF'er in the game, but he is not a liability. I've watched many Sox games this season. He plays a pretty solid LF, has an occasional mental lapse, but also has an occasional awesome play.

Pujols - doesn't have speed. Isn't as good a defender as A-rod and plays less important defensive position - 1st base.
Ichiro - doesn't have nearly as much power as A-rod.

The only player that for a while had a chance to be like A-rod was Soriano. However, he has defensive lapses and never learned to take a walk. He has also leveled off the last 2 years and is 28 years old, so chances are he won't get much better. Hope that explains my point

Please, leveling off the last two years? His first full season was 2001. He has to learn to play some defense, and to lay off the high fastball. He will only get better.

To answer your last question, I think it's very likely a-rod will hit 50hr this and next seasons if he stays healthy. I doubt he'll bat .320, but .300 is very likely.

Agreed.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

To answer your last question, I think it's very likely a-rod will hit 50hr this and next seasons if he stays healthy.

Arod has hit 50 homers only twice. In 8 full seasons (11 total).

Bonds isn't as good defensively as A-rod, doesn't have the same speed anymore and plays less imprtant defensive position: LF.
Manny is a defensive liability (com'n, admit it we've all manny drop routine fly-balls), doesn't have speed.
Pujols - doesn't have speed. Isn't as good a defender as A-rod and plays less important defensive position - 1st base.

Do you think speed can make up for Arod's lack of hitting prowess? Ok, Arod has 20 more stolen bases. He is so far behind in slugging percentage compared to the above 3. Bonds does everything he does with 2/3 the atbats of everyone else in the MLB.

How many flyballs has manny dropped in this year? 3 or 4 at most? That hardly makes a difference. In the AL there is even a DH position for extremely poor fielders.

The only player that for a while had a chance to be like A-rod was Soriano.

Probably. But just because Arod is unique doesn't mean that he is better than the above 3. Nobody in the MLB should/can be put on the same level as Bonds.

 

[Argo]

Once again you're only looking at hitting. Look at fielding, importance of defensive position played and arm strength. There's no doubt Bonds is heads above everybody else in hitting. Pujols is close second, but a complete player is somebody who's very good at everything. Remember Sox-Yanks game in June when A-rod saved 2 runs with an amazing play in 12th inning with bases loaded?

To whoever said that Manny only dropped 3 or 4 fly balls this far, that's 3-4 fly balls too many. Good OF don't drop any fly balls, in addition to making amazing plays, look at Edmonds, etc.

Yes, soriano could get better, however his last 3 years have been pretty identical (less SB this year, as accurately predicated by somebody else). When a player has 3 equal seasons that's a sign he's leveling off. Actually, each of Soriano's 3 seasons was slightly worse that the previous (don't feel like looking up stats, but trust me on this, I'm a yankee fan and I had soriano on my fantasy baseball team all 3 years ). This tells me that the league is catching up to him, or just not throwing him any strikes . That being said he's still an amazing player, probably top 10, however, chances are against him in becoming the best ever.

 

[Gurck]

You know how many ~250 hitting infielders there are? ss/3b isn't easy to play, the ball's coming at you at damn near the speed of light, and on top of the pure physical reaction of getting to it, if men are on, you have to decide where it's going in a fraction of a second depending on what pitch was thrown, who's on what base, how fast they are, what kind of lead they had, etc... Rodriguez does all that with the best of them - and hits for average. And for power. And can run. About the only thing he doesn't do (and do extraordinarily well, at that) is switch-hit.

 

[wkabel23]

No mention of Scott Rolen in all of this?

Sorry Yankees fans Arod is verry good but he is NOT the best player in baseball.

 

[jaydee]

Originally posted by: Gurck
sp33d won nothing, I refuse to argue anymore with someone so out of touch with reality. Likely a 15 year old too, judging by his substitution of e's with 3's. U no wut i meen??//?/

Duh, whoever types the most wins the debate obviously. He is 1337 b@53b@11 f4n u m0r0n!!!


sp33d's logic is so rediculously flawed at this point in his (prepubescent?) life, that I'll take one more shot at his irrationality and then as far as I'm concerned, he no longer exists.


Newsflash: Curt Schilling is 4th in the AL in ERA. He's tied for second for lowest BAA at .288. He's third in the AL in WHIP, and Pedro is 4th in WHIP and 13th in ERA. Pedro is 3rd in K/9, and Schilling 4th. They are 2-3 in cumulative K's in the league (Schill's only ahead by 1). But guess what? There isn't a Yankee in the top 15 in ERA! Ok I'll give you top 20 in ERA, Vazquez at 16th. But Wakefield is 17th and Arroyo 19th. Yes, 4 Red Sox starters in the top 20 in ERA. 1 Yankee. Let's face it, Pedro has better numbers than any Yankee this year, and he's not even Boston's best pitcher!

You say that with authority, as if someone in this thread really cares that Wakefield has the 17th best ERA in the AL. If you look hard enough (and it appears only you have the time to do this amount of stat tracking), you can find any stat to support virtually anything you want. If I cared, I'd dig out something that proves that Boston right now probably has one of the worst defenses in the last 20 years of baseball (as far as unearned runs), but it's meaningless. By pointing out Boston has a better ERA proves one of two things (given that the Yankees have an 8-game advantage heading into tonight):
a. Yankees have better hitting and defense
b. Boston (on average) wins big but can't win close games
Which do you prefer?



Pedro has only been lit up by one teamX2 this year, and that's the O's. The O's are the prime reason his ERA is higher than normal.

Well geez 1337 b@5eb@11 f4n, you pick out the 2 worst games of any decent pitcher's half-season and it would make him look great. He also got hit up pretty good by the Angels IIRC. But I'm sure you have a convinient excuse for that game too that will make you warm and fuzzy inside, believing that he is still one of the top 3 pitchers in the AL TODAY. Just as long as you know that no one outside of Boston agrees with you.



)currently has a .968 fielding percentage with 8 errors (as many as he made ALL YEAR at SS with TX, yes he's playing a new position but so fcking what he's the highest paid player in baseball DEAL WITH IT and adjust like the greats did)

It's not about adjusting to a new position, it's about playing a position with much less reaction time. If you ever played baseball before, I wouldn't have to point out the fact that 3B is a much harder position to field than SS. It's a common mistake by someone so bent on stats and doesn't really know the game. If you really want to look at something comparable, why don't you tell us how many MLB SS's have a better fielding pct than say... .980 and then look up how many 3B's do. Oh wait, that won't support your argument, my bad.



Yes but Pedro is still top 3 in the league in K's, K/9, 4th in WHIP, and 13th in ERA (which should improve). He is still an extremely dominant pitcher even without the 96mph heater, and has changed the way he pitches. Not many players can change the way they pitch toward the end of their career and remain dominant. He's still easily a top 3 power pitcher behind Schilling and maybe J.Santana(having monster year) in the AL.

Very convenient that you keep bringing up Pedro's ERA as the main reason he was the best pitcher years ago, and now when his ERA is over 4.00, you disregard that fact, find other stats that supports your argument and declare him still "top 3 power pitcher in the AL".



Last, Pedro is not a prima donna because he isn't conceited, he doesn't think that he is higher than his teammates. He takes advice from Schilling humbly b/c he knows he can get better by listening to one of the best, this is fact. A conceited man would not take advice from others. Is he tempermental? Yes, at times he is a hothead. But part of being a primadonna is also backing up your temper with your play, and Pedro is a shoe in for the HOF.

Good grief, you talk about these guys like you know them personally. Face it, you know nothing about Pedro. You see him on TV, read about him in the paper, maybe once in awhile 200 ft away from your seat at a ballpark actually see him in person. Perhaps you even went to a private signing, got his autograph for $20 and saw the top of his head up-close. Maybe he is a prima donna, maybe he isn't. This could go for any baseball player in the league be it Yankee, Red Sock, Twin, Cardinal, ect.



He has better numbers in the same amount of seasons that Koufax played, go look it up. He had the 2 most dominant ERA+ seasons in the history of baseball, go look it up. I'll even add in a link to the website: www.baseball-reference.com

And you're talking about Yankee fans living in the past?



NY doesn't have anyone that's good on the DL. They are in big trouble, not to mention they have a 50 year old in the lineup (Sierra) who could get hurt at any time, as well as old man Bernie who is due for a trip to the DL. Giambi (lol) hasn't been the same since he got laser eye surgery, and stopped pumping steroids into his gluteus maximus. Aside from the virus he caught from dirty Yankee stadium that his weakass immune system can't handle

Kevin Brown and Mike Mussina are the Yankees best 2 starters (and for the love of God, don't post all the negative stats about these guys, and rationalize to yourself and other boston fans that they suck. It's a matter of opinion (some may prefer Vaquez), but I'm willing to bet most Yankee fans will agree, that these are the two guys we want on the mound in the big games in October). They are both on the DL, so there's a flat out lie. FYI, Giambi probably got the parasite from Japan, but no one knows. There are reports that it may be life threatening and while the majority of the human race can look beyond sports allegiances in circumstances like these, you decide to rub it his face. That's just terrific.



In this entire thread, you've proven one thing 1337 b@5eb@11 f4n: you have more time on your hands than anyone else in this forum for looking up all those pointless stats. You should buy yourself an e-trophy right next to your other ones for bench pressing and look in the mirror proudly as the man with nothing better to do, than look up any and all statistics that Boston has against the Yankees. We all envy your espn stat tracker skills. If I was half the stats guy you are, I could find all stats in the world that prove the red sox can't field a groundball and throw it to first base consistently. Then if a Red Sox player becomes critically ill, boy I could have a lot of fun with that. But alas, U R teh 1337 b@5eb@11 f4n!! W00t!!!!

I'm done now, which in your book probably means that I lost the debate, but that's ok because everyone here with an once of logic has already realized that you have totally lost touch with reality when it comes to sports 1337 b@53b@11 f4n. Now go ahead and tell all your e-friends how you beat me in a debate and tell them again that you can bench twice your weight. Everyone here is really, really impressed.


BTW, A-Rod is not the best player in the MLB right now, I'd probably have to say Ivan Rodriguez.

 

[stickybytes]

Originally posted by: wkabel23
No mention of Scott Rolen in all of this?

Sorry Yankees fans Arod is verry good but he is NOT the best player in baseball.

I did mention him. Look at my earlier post.

In any 3rd basemen discussion, his name must be brought up. He has the most rbi's in this league and he is a gold glove quality third basemen. Of course it doesn't hurt when your hitting in the cardinals lineup .

 

[SP33Demon]

Just got back from the O's/Bosox game, I left in the 7th inning b/c it was pouring rain and Boston was up 12-2. Total asswhipping they laid on the O's, and Pedro was dominant and back to regular form. Who were the morons that were saying he has lost his stuff? You didn't watch the game tonight, to quote ESPN.com: The right-hander came in 0-2 with a 8.66 ERA in three starts against Baltimore this season, but in this game he looked every bit like a three-time Cy Young Award winner -- until the rain came.

"A game like that, I didn't want to leave him out there longer than I thought he needed to be out there," Boston manager Terry Francona said. "I thought he pitched great."

After six innings Pedro had only given up a Tejada HR, and should have been taken out with the score 12-2 by Francona after 6 innings (right about when I left). Of course Francona leaves him in for the 7th, when he should have pulled him out for protection, wtf? He gave up 3 in the 7th and felt a little pain, wtg Francona (or should we say Grady Little lol)?

The highlights of the night was Manny making an insane running backhand catch on the run to rob someone Mora of a double, the ridiculous clubbing the Bosox dished out (13 hits/12runs), and when Lee Mazzili walked the bases loaded by intentionally walking Nomar to get to the scorching red hot Kevin Millar. Of course Millar walked in another run b/c the pitcher was scared to put one over the plate (he had doubled the AB before). And the O's wonder why they have the worst record at home?

Other notes from today: RIVER BLEW HIS SECOND SAVE IN A ROW at Toronto... he's lucky one of his old fogey friends (Clark, not Sierra or Bernie or Enrique or El Duque) bailed him out in the 10th. Are you sweatin' yet Wankee fans?

Even better from ESPN.com about the game, this is a perfect summary of the typical asswipe Wankee fan: "A Yankees fan was ejected from SkyDome after stealing a foul popup from first baseman Delgado in the second. Delgado and the fan both reached up for a foul fly down the first-base line at the same time, with the fan snaring it clean. Delgado then angrily slapped the ball out of the fan's glove with his own glove, knocking the ball loose. He glared at the fan before throwing the ball to the crowd. Spectators in Yankee jerseys high-fived the fan and applauded him when he was escorted out." If I was at the game and was a Jays fan, I would have smacked the btch silly when he got up to go get a beer (if he had gotten away with it and wasn't ejected). There's no place for sht like that in baseball no matter what team you root for.

Last but not least, I'm glad to see I ruffled alot of Wankee feathers with my astute statistical analysis. The facts are the facts, you can't argue with statistics (i.e. Pedro doubling Hudson's K/9, and having 2.x more K/9 than Mulder) . If they make you mad, then you should do your own research and counter my arguments, i.e. Wankers like jaydee say things like "If I was half the stats guy you are, I could find all stats in the world that prove the red sox can't field a groundball and throw it to first base consistently." Wankee fans talk a big talk, but are too lazy to walk the walk! Also, the ranting immature soliliquoys really don't add anything intelligent to the debate, i.e. "U R teh 1337 b@5eb@11 f4n w00t!!". It's analogous to a gangster thug talking in ebonics at a nuclear fusion presentation, "huh?".

The highlight of these posts has to be Argo arguing that ARod is the best player in the league. *snicker* Or the twits that think Hudson is a better "power pitcher" (and I use that term loosely with him) with a 4.31K/9 ratio (Pedro and Schilling are around double that!) and a fastball that tops out at 92 (I saw Pedro hit 93/94 on the radar consistently tonight). The best power pitcher on the A's staff is Rich Harden, he throws 96mph (like Pedro in his glory days) consistently and I've seen him hit 98/99 against Boston last year in the playoffs. He's only 22, and will be scary in a couple of years, already averaging 8.42 K/9 (Pedro and Schilling type numbers). That is the true def of a POWER PITCHER, blowing hitters away with a good fastball and fooling them with good stuff to complement it which equates to a high amount of K's. Good examples of a power pitcher would be Wood, Prior, Unit, Clemens, Flash Gordon, Rivera, Gagne, Harden, Pedro, Schill, and Santana just to name a few. Greg Maddux is not a prototypical power pitcher, neither is Jamie Moyer. Hudson I wouldn't put in that category b/c of his low K/9 and total K's, Mulder as well.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: stickybytes

Originally posted by: wkabel23
No mention of Scott Rolen in all of this?

Sorry Yankees fans Arod is verry good but he is NOT the best player in baseball.

I did mention him. Look at my earlier post.

In any 3rd basemen discussion, his name must be brought up. He has the most rbi's in this league and he is a gold glove quality third basemen. Of course it doesn't hurt when your hitting in the cardinals lineup .

Don't forget GayRod's .968 fielding % this year at third, which can only drop from here. Rolen has a superb .983%, 20+ more RBIs, and is batting 48 pts higher in average. Rolen is clearly the best 3rd baseman in the majors, and you could make a strong case for him as best player in the league along with Bonds and Pujols. Pudge is probably up there as well, as someone else mentioned. GayRod wouldn't even finish top 5 with Vlad in there as well. His career avg will drop as he ages below .300, mark my words. So much for highest paid player = best in the league!

 

[Argo]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: stickybytes

Originally posted by: wkabel23
No mention of Scott Rolen in all of this?

Sorry Yankees fans Arod is verry good but he is NOT the best player in baseball.

I did mention him. Look at my earlier post.

In any 3rd basemen discussion, his name must be brought up. He has the most rbi's in this league and he is a gold glove quality third basemen. Of course it doesn't hurt when your hitting in the cardinals lineup .

Don't forget GayRod's .968 fielding % this year at third, which can only drop from here. Rolen has a superb .983%, 20+ more RBIs, and is batting 48 pts higher in average. Rolen is clearly the best 3rd baseman in the majors, and you could make a strong case for him as best player in the league along with Bonds and Pujols. Pudge is probably up there as well, as someone else mentioned. GayRod wouldn't even finish top 5 with Vlad in there as well. His career avg will drop as he ages below .300, mark my words. So much for highest paid player = best in the league!

What do you mean which can only drop from there? You say it with such certainty as if you've seen the future. If anything, it should get higher because he's adjusting to a new position. What makes you think his career average is going to drop? You're just full of assumtions.

jaydee, awesome post, but don't spend your energy on sp33d. He's too bent on his flawed logic to see past whatever he wants to see. Let's just agree with him that A-rod is an average player, in fact, entire Yankees team is made out of average players. All the more joy in us being 8 games up in the loss column.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: Argo
Bonds isn't as good defensively as A-rod, doesn't have the same speed anymore and plays less imprtant defensive position: LF.
Manny is a defensive liability (com'n, admit it we've all manny drop routine fly-balls), doesn't have speed.
Pujols - doesn't have speed. Isn't as good a defender as A-rod and plays less important defensive position - 1st base.
Ichiro - doesn't have nearly as much power as A-rod.

The only player that for a while had a chance to be like A-rod was Soriano. However, he has defensive lapses and never learned to take a walk. He has also leveled off the last 2 years and is 28 years old, so chances are he won't get much better. Hope that explains my point

To answer your last question, I think it's very likely a-rod will hit 50hr this and next seasons if he stays healthy. I doubt he'll bat .320, but .300 is very likely.

I just want to point out that while Manny has dropped the ball once or twice this year, he has also stolen hits from people (surprisingly). He is, at this point in his career, no longer a defensive liabilty. I'm certainly not saying he's a "good OF," but he sure as hell isn't 'bad' anymore. He's certainly not the best player in baseball, IMO you need speed for that, but a lot of people sell his defense short because of the tenth of a season they get to see him, or the media.

Also-ARod has struck out more this year than Soriano, in fewer AB's . And unless ARod gets hot he's not hitting 50 this year. Bonds is easily the best in baseball right now. I don't care if he doesn't steal bases... The guy is putting up inhuman numbers, year after year. It's like something right out of a video game.

a. Yankees have better hitting and defense

They sure as hell do. Their offense is a fricking All-Star team minus 2B.

Well geez 1337 b@5eb@11 f4n, you pick out the 2 worst games of any decent pitcher's half-season and it would make him look great. He also got hit up pretty good by the Angels IIRC. But I'm sure you have a convinient excuse for that game too that will make you warm and fuzzy inside, believing that he is still one of the top 3 pitchers in the AL TODAY. Just as long as you know that no one outside of Boston agrees with you.

He's top 5, for sure. There have been a few times where, in the colder weather, he hasn't gotten his fastball above 90-92 until the middle innings, and those are the games where he gets hammered. He pitched extremely well last night, 93+ from the start, and if it weren't for a couple of dribblers and a pop-up his line in the Box Score would look alot nicer than it does. He even blew away a couple of hitters.

Very convenient that you keep bringing up Pedro's ERA as the main reason he was the best pitcher years ago, and now when his ERA is over 4.00, you disregard that fact, find other stats that supports your argument and declare him still "top 3 power pitcher in the AL".

And I still say top 5. He isn't the best anymore, for sure (he used to put up closer like numbers), but he's up there. IMO, it all comes down to the fact that he's been trying to 'conserve' himself too much this year.

Good grief, you talk about these guys like you know them personally. Face it, you know nothing about Pedro. You see him on TV, read about him in the paper, maybe once in awhile 200 ft away from your seat at a ballpark actually see him in person. Perhaps you even went to a private signing, got his autograph for $20 and saw the top of his head up-close. Maybe he is a prima donna, maybe he isn't. This could go for any baseball player in the league be it Yankee, Red Sock, Twin, Cardinal, ect.

And that argument works against the person he was arguing with as well.

Also note; looking up stats is not hard at all, nor does it take a lot of time.

Even better from ESPN.com about the game, this is a perfect summary of the typical asswipe Wankee fan: "A Yankees fan was ejected from SkyDome after stealing a foul popup from first baseman Delgado in the second. Delgado and the fan both reached up for a foul fly down the first-base line at the same time, with the fan snaring it clean. Delgado then angrily slapped the ball out of the fan's glove with his own glove, knocking the ball loose. He glared at the fan before throwing the ball to the crowd. Spectators in Yankee jerseys high-fived the fan and applauded him when he was escorted out." If I was at the game and was a Jays fan, I would have smacked the btch silly when he got up to go get a beer (if he had gotten away with it and wasn't ejected). There's no place for sht like that in baseball no matter what team you root for.

Yea, I was watching that. I swear, when you're at a baseball game, all logic escapes you and you do stupid sh!t like that.

What do you mean which can only drop from there? You say it with such certainty as if you've seen the future. If anything, it should get higher because he's adjusting to a new position. What makes you think his career average is going to drop? You're just full of assumtions.

In this case, his assumption goes along with something called mother nature. As players get older, their BA typically drops, so it's safe to assume that unless ARod starts batting above .300 now, that career average will drop below .300 when all is said and done (although a few percentage points don't make him any less of a player).

 

[Argo]

Even better from ESPN.com about the game, this is a perfect summary of the typical asswipe Wankee fan: "A Yankees fan was ejected from SkyDome after stealing a foul popup from first baseman Delgado in the second. Delgado and the fan both reached up for a foul fly down the first-base line at the same time, with the fan snaring it clean. Delgado then angrily slapped the ball out of the fan's glove with his own glove, knocking the ball loose. He glared at the fan before throwing the ball to the crowd. Spectators in Yankee jerseys high-fived the fan and applauded him when he was escorted out." If I was at the game and was a Jays fan, I would have smacked the btch silly when he got up to go get a beer (if he had gotten away with it and wasn't ejected). There's no place for sht like that in baseball no matter what team you root for.

I saw that moment, the ball was in the stands so it was fair play for the fan. Plus, the fan wasn't a yankee fan, at least he wasn't wearing any yankee gear. Thirdly, nobody applauded him, at least not that I saw. In fact, the fan seemed pretty scared becaue Delgado punched the ball out of his hand.

In this case, his assumption goes along with something called mother nature. As players get older, their BA typically drops, so it's safe to assume that unless ARod starts batting above .300 now, that career average will drop below .300 when all is said and done (although a few percentage points don't make him any less of a player).

Quite a few players raised their batting averages when they hit 30. Pudge and Bonds are 2 good examples. All I was saying is that you can't use assumptions in an argument. You either support your points with facts, or don't say anythign at all.

 

[Thump553]

I'm a reformed Red Sox fan, and a lifelong Yankee hater. I've been to Red Sox-Yankee games at both Fenway and Yankee Stadium. Fenway was a lot more enjoyable and civilized.

Personally I think these sport rivalries are 95% hookum designed to generate interest and ticket sales.

 

[Argo]

Originally posted by: Thump553
I'm a reformed Red Sox fan, and a lifelong Yankee hater. I've been to Red Sox-Yankee games at both Fenway and Yankee Stadium. Fenway was a lot more enjoyable and civilized.

Personally I think these sport rivalries are 95% hookum designed to generate interest and ticket sales.

As a yankee fan I've also been to both Fenway and Yankee stadium and I can also claim that Yankee stadium was a lot more civilized than Fenway. Maybe, just maybe, it depends on what uniform you're wearing

 

[Soccer55]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Good examples of a power pitcher would be Wood, Prior, Unit, Clemens, Flash Gordon, Rivera, Gagne, Harden, Pedro, Schill, and Santana just to name a few. Greg Maddux is not a prototypical power pitcher, neither is Jamie Moyer. Hudson I wouldn't put in that category b/c of his low K/9 and total K's, Mulder as well.

You just named at least 5 power pitchers that are better than Pedro: Wood, Prior, Randy Johnson, Clemens, and Gagne. So how can Pedro be in the top 3 this year? Here are some stats that will make your rebuttal difficult.

K/9 = 9*(K/IP) found on MLB.com

Wood: 61.2 IP, 2.48 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 71 K, 10.36 K/9
Prior: 43.2 IP, 3.92 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 49 K, 10.10 K/9
Johnson: 151.1 IP, 2.68 ERA, 0.89 WHIP, 174 K, 10.15 K/9
Clemens: 129.1 IP, 2.85 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 133 K, 9.26 K/9
Gagne: 46.2 IP, 1.54 ERA, 0.75 WHIP, 70 K, 13.5 K/9
Pedro: 136.2 IP, 4.15 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 132 K, 8.69 K/9

So using 5 pitchers that you named as good examples of power pitchers, Pedro's numbers this year do not stack up. Pedro has the highest ERA, 2nd highest WHIP (Prior is higher by 0.03), and the lowest K/9. In fact, aside from Clemens, he's not really that close to any of the other 4 in terms of K/9 which you deem so important for a power pitcher. Comments?

-Tom

EDIT: If you don't like the fact that Prior and Wood have been injured this year and consequently haven't pitched many innings, I could always use their numbers from last year to illustrate my point even further.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: Thump553
I'm a reformed Red Sox fan, and a lifelong Yankee hater. I've been to Red Sox-Yankee games at both Fenway and Yankee Stadium. Fenway was a lot more enjoyable and civilized.

Personally I think these sport rivalries are 95% hookum designed to generate interest and ticket sales.

I doubt MLB is unhappy about the NY/Boston rivalry... but it's not engineered.