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With all the threads about hard to start vehicles.......

mrblotto

mrblotto

Golden Member
Thought I'd toss some more into the soup lol

Vehicle is a 2001 Jeep Cherokee 4WD
About 130k miles

Lately (the last month of so), it's been taking a bit longer to start:
-get in
-key in ignition
-turn key
-goes 'whirrr...whirrrr...whirrrrr' really slow
-panic, turn key back to off
-try again, goes 'whirr' slow for a second, then cranks normally and starts

I was out on a delivery the other day, and of course they were timed deliveries, so no time to do anything else lol. Get out of the jeep, make delivery, get back in, and the above described 'whirrrrrr....whirrrrr....whirrrrrr' happened like 3 times that time. I was like 'oh hell......gonna have to get some jumper cables or something', but on the 4th try, it went 'whirr' slowly for a second, then cranked normally and started right up

I got no CEL's, so I decide to stop by the local advance/pep boys/whatever shop on the way back from my last delivery (I kept the vehicle running during deliveries after that lol)

The dude wheels out his diagnostic-cart-thingee, hooks up some cables, then tells me to turn the car off, then back on. After that, he says 'turn on the AC, crank the fan, and turn on the highbeams'

Afterwards, the little machine spits out a piece of paper that pretty much said 'your battery and alternator are good'. It has some values on it, but naturally, it's still in the car (at home). 12.9 seems to stick out in my mind *shrugs*

Seeing that the brakes were also on the way out, I drop it off to my local mechanic dude and ask him to take a look-see at the 'lectrical system after he replaces the master cylinder and a leaking wheel cylinder that had shit the bed (causing said master cylinder to fail as well)

He calls back and says the battery and alternator both tested out fine....it may be the starter going. I was like 'wha?' Granted, the thing is 12 years old, and I'm not a professional mechanic, but I'm guessing the starter might just be getting old/stiff/stuck at times,right? He kinda could sense my hesitance, so about an hour later he called back and said 'Man, I dont want you to have to get a new starter if you dont have to. How old is your battery. Try replacing that first since it's under warranty'. He's good like that, haven't had a problem with him at all. He used to work at a 'stealership' then went off on his own, and uses OEM parts too boot 🙂

First thing I'm gonna do tho is replace the battery. It has a 3 yr warranty, and it's barely a year old (if that). I figure I'd rather get a free battery and see if anything else changes first, rather than monkey with a new starter.

Any info from the motorhead crowd that could be useful?

TL ; DR-
-car cranks slowly, then cranks normal and starts
-happened 3 times in a row ------> me panicing
-take car to auto parts store - batt/alt test fine
-take car to mechanic - batt/alt passes. Suggests starter may be failing
-will replace battery under warranty first to look for changes
 
Clean the battery terminals and posts first. Less than a 1 year old batt is unlikely to be bad unless the alternator is bad and took it out. Also take a look at the battery cables, sort of bend them a little bit and make sure there's no 'crunching'. Sounds like you live in a snow/salt area, that gunk can weep down the sheath and corrode cables causing these weird intermittent issues.

Those diag machines, in my experience, are just about total bunk. I don't know if it's miscalibration over time or what, but I've seen them test known bad batts as good, and known good batts as bad.

Even the on-the-bench alt testers aren't super reliable. Last time I bought an alternator I had them test the new one before I left... "bad".. pull another one... "bad".... get another brand... "bad".....
 
I'd suspect the cables as well well. Usually a failing starter will simply not work sometimes and work perfectly otherwise. This can be narrowed down by tapping a starter that is not working to make it work. This temporarily fixes the commutator/brush connection.

If it is the starter, there will probably be high current flow even when it is cranking slow. A failing cable should impede current flow until it cranks full speed.

Not sure how the warranty is handled on your battery, but they might want to load test it before honoring it. I am not as cynical about diagnostic tests as SA is, seeing as the circuitry to load test a battery is actually very simple, so I would trust the results. An intermittent dead cell is another story, but a drop of 2.1v while under load should be pretty easy to detect.

If your mechanic is set up to do electrical testing, then pinpointing where and why the voltage is dropping. It should be pretty easy to rule out the cables, but I would look at them first.
 
Thanx all for your insight and suggestions
-I'll go ahead and check the cables for 'crunchiness' lol
-While I'm there I'll see if the terminals are nasty and wire brush them if needed
-Not quite sure where the 'starter solenoid is' TBH
-Already took it to Autozone - said battery and alt passed. I'm thinking I may need to take that info with a grain of salt tho 😉
-I don't live in a high salt area (NC). Hell, they practically shut down the state when even the slightest hint of snow/ice is forecast lol

Maybe I should take some photos as well, and maybe even a video. I'll need to figure out how/where to upload them to

Thx again all!
 
Given the testing that's already been done, it's probably the starter. The solenoid is probably built into the starter.
 
I went through a bunch of starters on my truck before I finally changed the battery cables and have had no issues since. Funny thing was these starters never gave any indication of laboring to start the truck before the starter died. Crunchy cables can be a hidden issue.
 
Starters are almost always go or no go.

I'm sure it's technically possible, I've just never seen a starter fail like the op describes. They simply don't work at all, or they do the click click and can't engage, or the pinion gets stuck and they scream, or you have to bump the key a bunch to get it to finally turn over, or they turn over slowly making goofy noises, ......but the starter starting out with a strong WHIR then dying down is either battery or cables or some other lack of amperage issue... IMO




I'd put money on bad cables, specifically bad battery terminal connections. Check the cable connection to the terminal clamp first, wiggle everything and look for play and crunchiness right where the cable goes into the clamp. It's very normal to have to cut the clamps off and replace it with new ones.

Follow the negative cable and make sure it's secured well on the other end from the battery.

All that being said, these are things any small time mechanic should see from a mile away, so it could be something else since your mechanic friend said all looks good. But don't take his word for it, go check this stuff yourself. Pics would be fantastic.
 
Ok,
I finally was able to get some pictures, and I think I figured out photobucket lol.

The one terminal looked pretty crusty, as does the 'holder bracket thingee'.

I loosened the crusty terminal and moved it around some, then tapped it with a hammer as well to get more crust off. The wires didn't feel 'crunchy' to me. The red one had the crusty stuff on it. I guess it wouldn't hurt to replace both of 'em anyhow.

After I did the above, I jumped in, and it seemed to start normally. So, go figure, eh?
Oh, and I snapped some more crappy cell phone pics of the 'stang that was in the mechanics garage when the Jeep was getting worked on beside it.

http://s977.photobucket.com/user/mrblotto67/library/
 
mrblotto, my suggestion to you is to clean up the major electrical grounds in your engine bay. Start by removing the battery and start at the battery terminal end of the negative/ground cable and follow it to the part where it mounts onto the body. Unbolt it and thoroughly scrub the bolt, eyelit and any washers until they're all absolutely shiny. You should also look for some massive grounds for the transmission and engine block that attach to the body, clean up BOTH ends of those ground cables as well until shiny. You can measure the ohms with a multimeter by setting it to its most sensitive reading and attaching probes from the battery negative cable to various exposed metal parts in the engine bay which SHOULD be grounded. It should read exactly 0 ohms. Don't use the beep continuity tester function as readings with that will give an artificially low reading. Any reading higher than 0 ohms indicates a dirty ground or even worse a broken/frayed/damaged ground connection, somewhere...

After you've done all of this, the only thing I can suggest is charging up the battery with a battery charger and hope that now you've cleaned up your electrical grounds, your battery will stay more fully charged, therefore lead to better cranking.
 
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It looks like I should be replacing at least the positive cable. I'll have to figure out where both ends of it go before I start disassembly. It finally stopped raining here as well....sheesh.....2 weeks of rain/drizzle blows! On the plus side, the wife can't drive for a couple more weeeks (hip surgery), so I've got some time to do it lol

Thanks again all *salute*
 
I had a 1999 Cherokee Sport about 13 years ago....

Replacing the battery fixed my issue with sluggish starts/no starts. It was a weird symptom in the Cherokee because the computer required battery power for it to choke/idle correctly when it was cold. (meaning, 70 degrees)

The cables look fine to me.
 
Ooopss.....sorry about the 'spider' lol.

I went ahead and disc'd the terminals from the battery itself and gave them a thorough scrubbing. Connected them back, and was greeted to a MUCH better starting sequence! I didn't follow the cables into the bowels of the engine compartment.....mostly because I didn't want to crawl under the thing, poke around, and potentially break something else lol.

I reckon I should get some of that wacky electro-blah-blah-blah grease and do a proper slathering as well......

Sorry about not updating sooner. I had a gentle reminder PM....

thanx for the tap on the shoulder 🙂
 
Well you're just delaying the inevitable. Assuming your gas mileage hasn't taken a hit from the dirty grounds it will eventually, causing the vehicle to run rich, therefore sub-optimally leading to more fuel contaminating the oil which will plug up the PCV system quicker which if it gets clogged as well and isn't addressed will lead to further degradation in fuel economy and excessive crank case pressure causing oil leaks and oil burning due to the pressure pushing past the piston rings leading to the eventual destruction of the engine. Because you drive a gas guzzling vehicle, any small improvement in fuel economy should be very worthwhile.

No need to rush, just take a bright flash light, take your time and look around the engine bay, trying to trace where the grounds go. If you learn where they all go, next time you visit, you'll know what to tackle.

Every car I have ever worked on that was 10+ years old, regardless of whether or not it passed smog or was driving relatively normally, every time I cleaned up all the electrical grounds, the fuel consumption dropped and it idled/ran better. Then again I do have OBD-II instrumentation I use so I'm more perceptive of changes in operating conditions of vehicles than most people are aware of.
 
tortillasoup said:
Well you're just delaying the inevitable. Assuming your gas mileage hasn't taken a hit from the dirty grounds it will eventually, causing the vehicle to run rich, therefore sub-optimally leading to more fuel contaminating the oil which will plug up the PCV system quicker which if it gets clogged as well and isn't addressed will lead to further degradation in fuel economy and excessive crank case pressure causing oil leaks and oil burning due to the pressure pushing past the piston rings leading to the eventual destruction of the engine. Because you drive a gas guzzling vehicle, any small improvement in fuel economy should be very worthwhile.

No need to rush, just take a bright flash light, take your time and look around the engine bay, trying to trace where the grounds go. If you learn where they all go, next time you visit, you'll know what to tackle.

Every car I have ever worked on that was 10+ years old, regardless of whether or not it passed smog or was driving relatively normally, every time I cleaned up all the electrical grounds, the fuel consumption dropped and it idled/ran better. Then again I do have OBD-II instrumentation I use so I'm more perceptive of changes in operating conditions of vehicles than most people are aware of.
Click to expand...

😵

What kind of speaker cables do you use?
 
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