Wiser to "invest" in G3258 (and OC) or G4400 for budget builds?

[VirtualLarry]

This should be appealing to you VL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fXo2RRedvs

Reminds me of the "Onda M3" that I picked up, complete, for a little over $200. It had a Haswell Celeron CPU, 4GB DDR3 SO-DIMM, and a 128GB 2.5" SATA SSD, and wireless. (There is a spot for an mSATA drive too.)

Sadly, while quite attractive as well as functional, it died a week or two into deployment. Also, the chassis (all metal) was getting quite warm. I think that the fan had stopped working, and I hadn't noticed. Possibly due to me re-formatting and putting on Windows 7 64-bit, after removing the pre-installed Windows 10.

Edit: Oh, btw, I bought another G4400 on ebay, it was under $60 shipped. (Already had the micro-ATX H110 board. I took the G4400 out of that board to put into my ASRock DeskMini STX rig.)

 

[TidusZ]

I bought a G3258 for a netflix box, intending to overclock it. Still haven't bothered since there is no reason to though.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

I wouldn't buy an A8-7600 if I wanted to game on a budget (with a dGPU), single threaded performance just isn't there. I would get a G4500 and pair it with a decent dGPU. If I were looking to game on iGPU only, though, the AMD option may be the better one depending on what I planned to do with my system.

i3 6100 fits in my ASRock deskmini, FX-8320E doesn't allow for that, which makes the latter useless for my work system. I would also prefer a 6100 for a gaming system paired w/ dGPU.

What the haemorrhaging hell does gaming have to do with this? I wouldn't touch AMD for a modern gaming build. I said BUDGET BOX. Grandma Nora doesn't need a gaming machine to check her mail, but 2c/2t chips simply don't cut it any longer for the modern web.

 

[Arachnotronic]

What the haemorrhaging hell does gaming have to do with this? I wouldn't touch AMD for a modern gaming build. I said BUDGET BOX. Grandma Nora doesn't need a gaming machine to check her mail, but 2c/2t chips simply don't cut it any longer for the modern web.

People with budget boxes like to have fun, too...

 

[NTMBK]

People with budget boxes like to have fun, too...

Darn straight! My sister got a Llano box for Christmas a few years back- it did the job well enough for her to play Mass Effect 1-3 with a few settings turned down, so she was happy

 

[DrMrLordX]

That's a good point. Maybe I should start setting BIOS passwords, and then they can call me for the password, and their warranty is void if I give it to them.

There are a few things they might have legit cause to tweak in there, like if they have to boot from USB and secure boot being on or legacy mode USB support being off is stopping it from happening. Otherwise not a bad plan.

FWIW I game on this here 7870k (and until recently, did so on a 7700k) and it works out okay so long as expectations are kept low. It drives this old 1600x1200 monitor well enough, though on some titles I have to push settings down the 1024x768 or 800x600 to achieve acceptable framerates. I don't expect photorealism.

 

[poofyhairguy]

But I think we all want Larry to get a 6700k, some fast ram, a fat SSD, a gtx 1070+, and a 4k monitor, even if he wouldn't do anything other than surf the web. We can crowdfund this.

Nah, you will kill his hobby. Larry's thing is pushing low end hardware to get the most of it, to live the life of a budget computer buyer even if his total yearly PC part budget puts him in the top 2%. I respect that, and every i7 since Sandy has been boring as hell- just plug in and play. There is no reason to strive for more, even my stock clocked 2600k is still fine for most things. A 6700k is like a nuke from orbit, it just kills everything and the fun is gone.

On topic I think the only people that should be ever giving OCed G3258s going forward are ones who want to emulate Wii games.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

The main issue right now is there are a LOT of people that don't know what to buy. I think Larry is doing a great service by pointing under-privileged folks to systems he thinks will last. And he's asking the community for opinions to help, which is far better than what other system builders would do.

+1 big time. That's why I follow Larry's threads and try to give him some help if I can. I was there once.

FWIW I think the the G4400 is the way to go.....unless you start comparing it to used equipment. I've seen i5-2400's dropping into the same price bracket lately and think it makes a compelling choice. When you can get a Dell optiplex 790 with i5-2400, 4gb of ram, dvdrw, 500gb spinner, and win7 for around $150.- shipped to your door it's really hard to build at a better price than that.

 

[Spicedaddy]

Read the thread quickly, but here are a few tips:

1. Never overclock or run anything out of spec on a system you're selling to someone and doing support/providing warranty for. They won't see the difference, and you're just increasing the odds of something going wrong.
2. I have my own IT business, and I don't think I've sold an AMD system in the last 10 years. Intel CPU and Intel chipset have less bugs and perform better.
3. Charge more! (I don't know what you charge now, but just reading your posts I know it's not enough lol) You'll lose the cheap as f... clients, but you'll make more money in the end. Or worst case, you'll make the same money in less time.
4. Like others have mentioned, dual-core is probably enough for now, but if spending an extra 100$ for a quad-core means the computer will be usable for 2 extra years, it's worth it. (example: a Sandy Bridge dual-core I wouldn't touch these days, while a quad-core from the same gen is still decent) The cheapest desktop I'd sell today is an i5-6400 with an SSD.
5. Don't be afraid to tell someone their computer is just too old, and refuse to fix it. When a client calls me about a 5+ year-old computer, and I see it's going to cost half of what a new one would cost to fix it, I tell them it's time to replace it. Believe me, I've been there many times. It always takes more time than what you quoted to fix it, and they end up with the same out of warranty old computer that'll break again in 6 months.
6. Buy prebuilts. The margins are razor-thin and the OEMs pay much less than you do for Windows, so there's no saving trying to build cheap computers. (only exception would be gaming computers) Take into consideration the time it takes to build them, test, install all drivers, the odds that there'll be some incompatibility between parts, etc. Building computers used to be an alternative, but now it's a HOBBY.

Maybe you're doing this on the side for fun, but if you're serious about making a living out of it stop being nice and be professional. (people calling at 11:30pm and you offfering to fix it for 30$, that's what a 15 year-old kid would do) Part of the job is recommending what's best for a client in the long run, and 99% of the time, spending more now saves money later. And 99% of the time, clients don't understand that, so you have to convince them or tell them to find someone else to help them.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but I was like you when I started. Always trying to find the cheapest way to fix something, instead of doing it the right way the first time. And if your client is too poor to pay to have it done right, that's not your problem. If I go to a car dealership to buy a car and their cheapest model is 20,000$, but I only have 10,000$ to spend, they won't sell me half a car. They'll tell me to wait until I can afford it or go somewhere else.

 

[whm1974]

Read the thread quickly, but here are a few tips:

1. Never overclock or run anything out of spec on a system you're selling to someone and doing support/providing warranty for. They won't see the difference, and you're just increasing the odds of something going wrong.
2. I have my own IT business, and I don't think I've sold an AMD system in the last 10 years. Intel CPU and Intel chipset have less bugs and perform better.
3. Charge more! (I don't know what you charge now, but just reading your posts I know it's not enough lol) You'll lose the cheap as f... clients, but you'll make more money in the end. Or worst case, you'll make the same money in less time.
4. Like others have mentioned, dual-core is probably enough for now, but if spending an extra 100$ for a quad-core means the computer will be usable for 2 extra years, it's worth it. (example: a Sandy Bridge dual-core I wouldn't touch these days, while a quad-core from the same gen is still decent) The cheapest desktop I'd sell today is an i5-6400 with an SSD.
5. Don't be afraid to tell someone their computer is just too old, and refuse to fix it. When a client calls me about a 5+ year-old computer, and I see it's going to cost half of what a new one would cost to fix it, I tell them it's time to replace it. Believe me, I've been there many times. It always takes more time than what you quoted to fix it, and they end up with the same out of warranty old computer that'll break again in 6 months.
6. Buy prebuilts. The margins are razor-thin and the OEMs pay much less than you do for Windows, so there's no saving trying to build cheap computers. (only exception would be gaming computers) Take into consideration the time it takes to build them, test, install all drivers, the odds that there'll be some incompatibility between parts, etc. Building computers used to be an alternative, but now it's a HOBBY.

Maybe you're doing this on the side for fun, but if you're serious about making a living out of it stop being nice and be professional. (people calling at 11:30pm and you offfering to fix it for 30$, that's what a 15 year-old kid would do) Part of the job is recommending what's best for a client in the long run, and 99% of the time, spending more now saves money later. And 99% of the time, clients don't understand that, so you have to convince them or tell them to find someone else to help them.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but I was like you when I started. Always trying to find the cheapest way to fix something, instead of doing it the right way the first time. And if your client is too poor to pay to have it done right, that's not your problem. If I go to a car dealership to buy a car and their cheapest model is 20,000$, but I only have 10,000$ to spend, they won't sell me half a car. They'll tell me to wait until I can afford it or go somewhere else.

I agree with your points here Spicedaddy. At some point working on older low spec systems isn't worth it. I will only do it now if I owe someone a big flavor.

 

[daxzy]

Some points to consider

2. I have my own IT business, and I don't think I've sold an AMD system in the last 10 years. Intel CPU and Intel chipset have less bugs and perform better.

I haven't had a problem with Kaveri and later desktops. In fact, I've had better luck with GCN based dGPU's at launch (video encode/decode and light gaming) than Intel based ones.

3. Charge more! (I don't know what you charge now, but just reading your posts I know it's not enough lol) You'll lose the cheap as f... clients, but you'll make more money in the end. Or worst case, you'll make the same money in less time.
4. Like others have mentioned, dual-core is probably enough for now, but if spending an extra 100$ for a quad-core means the computer will be usable for 2 extra years, it's worth it. (example: a Sandy Bridge dual-core I wouldn't touch these days, while a quad-core from the same gen is still decent) The cheapest desktop I'd sell today is an i5-6400 with an SSD.

I don't think you've gotten the point of how under-privileged (does that make me sound too PC?) some of his clients are. Furthermore, CPU's are lasting longer than previously. A Sandy-Bridge i3-2xxx is still very much usable today for office tasks (with an SSD). A Skylake i3-6xxx (which is about a low end Ivy-Bridge i5) will easily perform well for office tasks for the next 10 years, IMO. The one thing I do agree on is the SSD. 256GB SSD's (research reliable models) can be had for around $40-50 on eBay. Users should appreciate how much more responsive their ordinary tasks are with an SSD.

6. Buy prebuilts. The margins are razor-thin and the OEMs pay much less than you do for Windows, so there's no saving trying to build cheap computers. (only exception would be gaming computers) Take into consideration the time it takes to build them, test, install all drivers, the odds that there'll be some incompatibility between parts, etc. Building computers used to be an alternative, but now it's a HOBBY.

This. Dell Outlet with coupons is my first choice. I'd go there for monitors too. I got 22" Professional P2217H's (1080p IPS) for $90 shipped. These are FAR better than the $100 crap LCD panels that most stores carry.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but I was like you when I started. Always trying to find the cheapest way to fix something, instead of doing it the right way the first time. And if your client is too poor to pay to have it done right, that's not your problem. If I go to a car dealership to buy a car and their cheapest model is 20,000$, but I only have 10,000$ to spend, they won't sell me half a car. They'll tell me to wait until I can afford it or go somewhere else.

A better analogy is having a $1000 clunker. Stuff breaks and you have to spend $hundreds to fix it every time. That person would be far better off saving for another used car. I don't want to turn this into P&N, but the big problem with cash-strapped folks is that everything just costs them more to do. They can't afford to do things right, so they end up paying to get some patch fixes done. It just ends up costing them more in the long run. Lots of folks here come from households that are much better off and don't comprehend that there are folks living paycheck to paycheck. Financial discipline helps, but isn't the end all solution.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Ok, besides getting a G4400 for my H110 mobo with an empty CPU socket, I also picked up some ASRock B150 K4/Hyper boards, and some G3900 CPUs... to overclock. For science, of course.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Ok, besides getting a G4400 for my H110 mobo with an empty CPU socket, I also picked up some ASRock B150 K4/Hyper boards, and some G3900 CPUs... to overclock. For science, of course.

*cringe*

 

[whm1974]

Ok, besides getting a G4400 for my H110 mobo with an empty CPU socket, I also picked up some ASRock B150 K4/Hyper boards, and some G3900 CPUs... to overclock. For science, of course.

So basically you are building "Walmart Specials instead of real computers.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

So basically you are building "Walmart Specials instead of real computers.

Nah. WalMart Special usually means an Atom CPU. He's building full size systems that have the potential to be upgraded to "real computer" status some day. Maybe. But probably won't. But at least they're cheap.

 

[crashtech]

*Any* new big core put out there is a victory for the PC, lol.

 

[jcwagers]

Well, OK, people - put yourself in my shoes for a second. Knowing the type of clientele I tend to have, how should I approach them, in trying to sell them a (Skylake) quad-core rig?

I mean, if I bring up the possibility of buying a higher-end quad-core rig, for say, $800 total., they're going to ask me, "Are you crazy??".

If I propose a $400 PC, they're like, "I'll have to think about that for a while. Maybe when I get my tax check back."

If I show them a $200 PC ($300 with Windows), they're more like, "OK, I'll save up, but is this one slow?" (Short answer, "Yes, most likely".)

Knowing that my PCs generally always come with SSDs, and generally adequate RAM, and thus are probably a better value than a store-bought PC. (But hard to "prove", unless the customer has an understanding of how much faster and smoother an SSD-based system is.)

Edit: I know (certain people) feel that desktops need a quad-core. But if the client is just a basic browser type, what am I supposed to suggest to them to justify a $200 quad-core i5 CPU? ("What if you want to edit videos?")

These are people that call me when they want to burn a DVD, and we spend an hour just getting the program running and recognizing the disc in the drive. (Because they don't know what drive letter corresponds to which physical drive.)

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and offer an opinion with this. You may agree, you may disagree but...here goes....

The first advantage to selling someone a quad-core system is longevity. They don't like to upgrade or mess with things so the cost is up-front but then it should be smooth sailing. Yes, a dual-core will suffice, FOR NOW. As has been mentioned, the internet is constantly changing and specs are going up even for basic tasks anymore. A quad-core system will give them a pleasant experience for a longer amount of time. Thus, it makes it easier on YOU because you don't have to constantly be dealing with providing cheap or free tech support to help them. The second advantage is flexibility. A quad-core system will likely be a bit more flexible in using productivity programs and games down the road. You'll have less of "well, that game won't run because the cpu isn't sufficient. We'll need to upgrade your system to get it to work."

However, I understand that things are tough for people and they can't always afford to have the best. However, there comes a point with your business where you have to try to have a baseline of what's expected. Not necessarily for the customer....but for YOU. It sounds like a lot of the work you are doing tends to be free or low cost so by continuing to buy and support lower end systems, you are making more work for yourself than is needed. In that situation, you don't want to constantly be shuffling around trying to come up with some build that *might* work. You want to set your standards for the best system for the money and stick with it. The constant shuffling and scrounging of parts to make a build is just more work and stress on you.

If you need to stick with a dual-core, that's fine. Come up with a solid, good for the money, build and stick with that. Don't go altering everything because people are unwilling to work with you. You are providing a service and it's YOUR name on the line. You provide the service that you know will be good. If they are unwilling to do that, that's unfortunate but they'll need to find someone else. That way you keep a good, solid reputation......but you also keep from being taken advantage of whenever they feel like it.

Just to have some options, I would recommend that you spec out a basic dual-core setup, and a basic quad-core setup. That way you have your foundation set and you can just tweak around some of the other options as needed (gpu, ram, ssd). People are all about having things NOW. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Usually if it's something that's worth saving up for, it's worth getting something that you'll be pleased with and something that will last for a long time.

The main thing I'm getting at here Larry, is that by doing the cheapest "budget" builds, you are making more work for yourself, with little return on your investment, other than for your own piece of mind. The people that you build for.....how would they characterize the products that you've sold them? I'm not talking about YOU or your service in supporting them, but the actual products. In some instances, a more expensive product is a better product and could lead to more recognition for you and less work doing support for things that are hardware limited based on the system.

I'm not directing this at you to be negative. I just want you to look at the big picture here. If you are happy with the services that you can provide and the clients are satisfied, that's what counts. I'm not a hard hearted person that has no remorse for people. Sometimes you just have to make the best of things however you can. As I mentioned, this is just my opinion, and you are more than welcome to disagree completely. I certainly had no bad intentions in mind while posting this. I wish you the best Larry!

 

[whm1974]

Nah. WalMart Special usually means an Atom CPU. He's building full size systems that have the potential to be upgraded to "real computer" status some day. Maybe. But probably won't. But at least they're cheap.

GAGH Walmart specials are that bad now? If I was building basic boxes for people I wouldn't go below the G4500 and I will strongly recommend the i3-6100.

 

[VirtualLarry]

So basically you are building "Walmart Specials instead of real computers.

Actually, this build is for escrow4, he wanted to know how fast a G3900 was, or something. I forget exactly, but I said I would get one and test it out for him. I figured I'd get the overclocking boards, to see how far I can push them. I might end up giving one of the builds to my friend with the Athlon II X4 rig. Depends if it performs any better, LOL.

Edit: I haven't, and probably won't, sell any "SKY OC" / Skylake BCLK OC rigs. Too "iffy". At least, the overclocked G3258 CPUs were MEANT to overclock, though not in H81 boards per se. The iGPU is still functional after an OC for the G3258. SKY OC, OTOH, disables the PCU, and you lose power-saving, full-speed AVX (if present), and lose the iGPU, which is pretty significant for a budget box.

 

[VirtualLarry]

He's building full size systems that have the potential to be upgraded to "real computer" status some day. Maybe. But probably won't. But at least they're cheap.

Well, I had my friend with the Athlon II X4 3.0Ghz in mind with this build, eventually, after I finished testing it out.
My hope is that the G3900 OCed to 4.5 (higher? pretty-please?), will be faster than the Athlon II X4 (ok, in ST, that should at least be true), and in the future, my friend can drop in a nice Skylake quad-core CPU, and get a REAL boost over his Athlon II X4 CPU.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Actually, this build is for escrow4, he wanted to know how fast a G3900 was, or something.

That's not BETTER.

edit: unless you're actually amazingly charismatic, photogenic, and have an "Adventures in low end overclocking" youtube channel with hundreds of thousands of hits a month, in which case there's some cost-of-doing-business arguments to be made.

But you're usually the one claiming poverty. I've gotten by on minimum wage, and I have sympathy, but I'm telling you dude; you're a smart guy. If you spent as much time tinkering with clustered databases* as you spend building and rebuilding the same desktop systems, you'd be making six figures and posting threads in ATOT about the $200 jeans you wore once and threw out because you didn't like the way they made your butt look.

*That software is friggin FREE, dude.

 

[Rifter]

People pay for Windows? Blargh.

I agree, if truly going super low budget windows is probably the biggest place you can save money on a build. Id much rather have a i5 and linux than a atom and windows.

 

[whm1974]

That's not BETTER.

edit: unless you're actually amazingly charismatic, photogenic, and have an "Adventures in low end overclocking" youtube channel with hundreds of thousands of hits a month, in which case there's some cost-of-doing-business arguments to be made.

But you're usually the one claiming poverty. I've gotten by on minimum wage, and I have sympathy, but I'm telling you dude; you're a smart guy. If you spent as much time tinkering with clustered databases* as you spend building and rebuilding the same desktop systems, you'd be making six figures and posting threads in ATOT about the $200 jeans you wore once and threw out because you didn't like the way they made your butt look.

*That software is friggin FREE, dude.

The money the OP spent on low spec hardware could have been use to buy a high end computer that last much longer.