Wiser to "invest" in G3258 (and OC) or G4400 for budget builds?

[VirtualLarry]

but I would never sell them an over-clocked PC or even talk about over-clocking when selling them a PC, because I am not a shady jerk. That's just me though, all moral and junk.

Is overclocking, immoral? I don't recall the bible saying anything about "thou shalt not overclock".

Do you refuse to set XMP mode for memory, when selling someone a PC? Leave it at stock DDR3-1333, and tell them that if they want the full speed of their RAM, they'll have to overclock it themselves? Because XMP RAM is overclocking.

 

[daxzy]

People pay for Windows? Blargh.

If you don't like it, then install Ubuntu or any relatively user friendly Debian derivative (like Mint). Libre-Office mostly suffices as an offline Office suite. Although if I were online, IMO, the the free version of Office 365 is better.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I deal with people that have to split an $85 bill for service (including an SSD and a wireless keyboard) over two months, because they simply can't afford things.

If I stopped building $200-300-400 boxes, and "only" sold i5/i7 boxes, for $800-1000, these people would be saving up for five years just to afford the PC.

I don't think any of you 1%'ers understand TRULY "budget" builds. Ones that are affordable, after six months of savings, rather than years, yet perform fairly well (but won't be top-end gamer boxes or video editors), that can still be upgraded to something better down the line.

I also wanted to put this here:

http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sam_Vimes_Theory_of_Economic_Injustice

By arguing in favor of putting people on a perpetual annual upgrade-to-just-barely-good-enough, you're basically arguing in favor of that.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Is overclocking, immoral? I don't recall the bible saying anything about "thou shalt not overclock".

Do you refuse to set XMP mode for memory, when selling someone a PC? Leave it at stock DDR3-1333, and tell them that if they want the full speed of their RAM, they'll have to overclock it themselves? Because XMP RAM is overclocking.

Selling a computer with a violated warranty is probably not "good."

Now, by all means, if you're backing it yourself as the seller, that's fine. But that's money out of your pocket.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Selling a computer with a violated warranty is probably not "good."

Now, by all means, if you're backing it yourself as the seller, that's fine. But that's money out of your pocket.

Well, honestly, I forgot about the voided mfg warranty on the CPU from overclocking (even though it is sold "unlocked"), when I made that comment. But I do offer a 1-year warranty on all of my new PCs that I sell, and generally, six months on refurb or used parts / systems.

Yes, I guess in theory I would just eat the cost, but thankfully, that hasn't been an issue yet. I don't go for over-the-top OCs, I'm very conservative on them.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I also wanted to put this here:

http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sam_Vimes_Theory_of_Economic_Injustice

By arguing in favor of putting people on a perpetual annual upgrade-to-just-barely-good-enough, you're basically arguing in favor of that.

What about RS's posts in the GPU forum, advocating upgrading every generation to a mid-range video card (and selling off the previous part), rather than buying high-end and sitting on it until it dies? I know I'm not the only one that thinks that way.

If people buy a PC from me, and then they want to upgrade within a few years, then I cut them a credit for whatever their old gear might be worth, in order to re-sell or give away. I mean, if it's 3-5 years old, it's not worth much, unless it's a higher-end part, but if my friend wanted to upgrade his Athlon II X4 3.0Ghz rig, I'd offer him some sort of credit for his CPU and RAM, at least in theory. (In reality, I already gave him those parts for free, so it would be a bit weird if I gave him some sort of fair-market-value for them, in addition to giving them to him for $0 initially.)

Not to mention, many of my friends and clients (well, myself included) have difficulty saving larger sums of money on a limited income. Is it really economic injustice, if they want to upgrade, NOW, with the month that they have, rather than "suffer" with their old rig for 5 years all along, while they attempt to save up?

Sure, if you can save up all the money for a new car, and buy it "with cash", you'll save money with the finance charges. But if you "need" a car, "now", and can only afford $200-300/mo, what are you going to do? That's life.

 

[escrow4]

I deal with people that have to split an $85 bill for service (including an SSD and a wireless keyboard) over two months, because they simply can't afford things.

If I stopped building $200-300-400 boxes, and "only" sold i5/i7 boxes, for $800-1000, these people would be saving up for five years just to afford the PC.

I don't think any of you 1%'ers understand TRULY "budget" builds. Ones that are affordable, after six months of savings, rather than years, yet perform fairly well (but won't be top-end gamer boxes or video editors), that can still be upgraded to something better down the line.

If it takes 5yrs to save up for a proper desktop, you have bigger issues and shouldn't be buying a PC in the first place. Use a tablet instead.

 

[whm1974]

@VirtualLarry:
How many of these people smoke? I'm living on a fixed income and in HUD housing and most of the other clients here smoke.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Some of them do. Some now "vape" rather than smoke, in which case, I think that their PC thanks them.

 

[whm1974]

Some of them do. Some now "vape" rather than smoke, in which case, I think that their PC thanks them.

Yeah I have worked on computers that died from their owners smoking too much around them before.

 

[imported_falacy]

Some of them do. Some now "vape" rather than smoke, in which case, I think that their PC thanks them.

Indeed. I've replaced my fair share of thoroughly disgusting power supplies from smoker's homes in my time. PCs do seem to make for decent air filters though...

 

[bystander36]

What about RS's posts in the GPU forum, advocating upgrading every generation to a mid-range video card (and selling off the previous part), rather than buying high-end and sitting on it until it dies? I know I'm not the only one that thinks that way.

If people buy a PC from me, and then they want to upgrade within a few years, then I cut them a credit for whatever their old gear might be worth, in order to re-sell or give away. I mean, if it's 3-5 years old, it's not worth much, unless it's a higher-end part, but if my friend wanted to upgrade his Athlon II X4 3.0Ghz rig, I'd offer him some sort of credit for his CPU and RAM, at least in theory. (In reality, I already gave him those parts for free, so it would be a bit weird if I gave him some sort of fair-market-value for them, in addition to giving them to him for $0 initially.)

Not to mention, many of my friends and clients (well, myself included) have difficulty saving larger sums of money on a limited income. Is it really economic injustice, if they want to upgrade, NOW, with the month that they have, rather than "suffer" with their old rig for 5 years all along, while they attempt to save up?

Sure, if you can save up all the money for a new car, and buy it "with cash", you'll save money with the finance charges. But if you "need" a car, "now", and can only afford $200-300/mo, what are you going to do? That's life.

With GPU's, upgrading often with mid ranged products make sense, because every generation brings a big increase in performance. However, when it comes to CPU's, an i5 from 5 years ago is better than a Pentium or i3 today for the most part. Spending a little extra on the CPU is a better investment.

Edit: I might argue that the reasoning only works with mid ranged products. Low end GPU's just suck from the get go, much like low end CPU's. You need to buy mid ranged for any value and if you go mid ranged with the CPU, it will last you a very long time. At least 2 GPU upgrades worth, if not more.

 

[whm1974]

@VirtualLarry:
How many of these people smoke? I'm living on a fixed income and in HUD housing and most of the other clients here smoke.

Drat, I forgot to make my point. Anyway my point here is that most people I've known who complained about not having the money to buy nice things also smoke and/or drink, among other costly habits.

I'm not saying that this is everyone, but most people can examen their budgets to find areas where they are wasting money

 

[AtenRa]

You know, your basic desktop / web browser builds. Maybe a Facebook game or two.

I've recently identified an H81 mobo that's available currently at Newegg for under $45 that will overclock a G3258 CPU to around 4.0-4.2Ghz.

Likewise, there's a similar Biostar H110 DDR3L mobo available for a similar price, although it can't overclock the CPU.

Both boards have HDMI and VGA.

I know that even the lower-end Skylake G4400 with HD 510, probably has a more powerful iGPU than that of a G3258. Gen9 to be exact.

For watching web videos, does the Gen9 GPU matter all that much?

Just use a Skylake Pentium and be done with it, they will never understand/feel the performance difference between the OC Haswell vs default Skylake, but they will have a better platform.

Also, Skylake Pentium has better iGPU.

 

[whm1974]

Just use a Skylake Pentium and be done with it, they will never understand/feel the performance difference between the OC Haswell vs default Skylake, but they will have a better platform.

Also, Skylake Pentium has better iGPU.

If the OP must use a Pentium, then I'll recommend the G4500. Otherwise for a budget build get the i3-6100.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

What about RS's posts in the GPU forum, advocating upgrading every generation to a mid-range video card (and selling off the previous part), rather than buying high-end and sitting on it until it dies? I know I'm not the only one that thinks that way.

If people buy a PC from me, and then they want to upgrade within a few years, then I cut them a credit for whatever their old gear might be worth, in order to re-sell or give away. I mean, if it's 3-5 years old, it's not worth much, unless it's a higher-end part, but if my friend wanted to upgrade his Athlon II X4 3.0Ghz rig, I'd offer him some sort of credit for his CPU and RAM, at least in theory. (In reality, I already gave him those parts for free, so it would be a bit weird if I gave him some sort of fair-market-value for them, in addition to giving them to him for $0 initially.)

Not to mention, many of my friends and clients (well, myself included) have difficulty saving larger sums of money on a limited income. Is it really economic injustice, if they want to upgrade, NOW, with the month that they have, rather than "suffer" with their old rig for 5 years all along, while they attempt to save up?

Sure, if you can save up all the money for a new car, and buy it "with cash", you'll save money with the finance charges. But if you "need" a car, "now", and can only afford $200-300/mo, what are you going to do? That's life.

Somebody else already explained the GPU thing. It also only makes sense if you play games that need the extra power. Nobody's upgrading their GPU to play LoL or the latest WoW expansion.

If you have an opportunity to save a lot of money by buying something more expensive up front (whether it's Terry Pratchett's boots, or a more expensive PC, or a more expensive but more reliable car that gets, say, higher gas mileage) that's when it actually may make sense to finance something. If a poor person has been responsible, they still probably have access to _some_ credit. Nobody's saying they need to do a $3k build, just spend an extra $150 or $200 up front so they don't have to spend $150 on upgrades next year, and the year after that, and the...

And if they're NOT responsible, maybe a desktop PC isn't right for them anyway. I seem to recall a recent discussion where I mentioned the benefits of laptop ownership in certain highly mobile situations?

 

[VirtualLarry]

And if they're NOT responsible, maybe a desktop PC isn't right for them anyway. I seem to recall a recent discussion where I mentioned the benefits of laptop ownership in certain highly mobile situations?

Well, I'm not really sure where "not responsible" aligns with "highly mobile", unless you are referring to people that are so poor that they find that they have to move often, because they're constantly getting kicked out. (Could happen.)

I have a friend, that is "poor". (On a relatively fixed income, section 8, etc.). But he works, part-time, at a nearby business. (I give him mad props for having a job, and being responsible about that.)

But he got one of his tax checks back, and you know what he wants to do with it? The same thing that he wants to do every time he gets a hold of a large sum of money: "Let's go to (a casino in a nearby state.)".

He doesn't think, "Pay my bills", or "invest in infrastructure" (car, computer, etc.).

And yet, his 2008-era PC is falling apart. He called me the other night at 11:30 at night, after he was getting "out of memory errors", and I told him to re-start. Well, it never did, he had to call me from a pay phone, because he couldn't use his MagicJack, because that requires his PC to use.

I told him I'd show up and fix it for him, for $30. Turned out, his 10-year-old HDD was dying / dead, and dragging down the rest of the PC. (His OS drive is an SSD, thanks to me.)

At what point do I refuse to fix his PC, to force him to get a new one? I've suggested multiple times to possibly consider getting a new one. Which, he doesn't bother, he thinks his is just fine. Until it breaks down at midnight (again), and calls me, "You gotta come over and fix this for me!".

I've been trying to push him to sign up for the $10/mo internet like I just got (unlimited 4G LTE data, at ~6Mbit/sec), but he... isn't interested. He's leaching internet off of a neighbor (with permission), instead of putting down the $195 up front for the MiFi and first year of service.

If he loses his internet, he's going to be dead in the water. If it wasn't for me, he wouldn't even have internet today. (I hooked him up with a "high-power" wireless N USB adapter, so he could reach his neighbor's router, two stories up.)

I'd love to build him a really decent i5-6500/6600K rig, with 16GB+ of DDR4-2400/3000, and a 240GB SSD, and maybe later, a gaming-grade video card. (He's expressed interest in playing KI on PC.) But he'd have to pay for it, I'm not buying him that class of rig.

Or even, buying one of my G3258 OC w/GTX950 rigs, 16GB, SSD, and I'd cut him a discount. (More like, I'd eat some of the cost, and sell it below my cost.)

But again, he'd rather go to the casino.

Edit: I've got another occasional client, that has a P4 rig with XP. Well, they got hit by the "Indian tech support scam", and I had to re-format that rig, and fix it back up for them. (This was just before XP was EOL.) I charged her probably $100 in labor on that job, which required three days of my time. (XP update issues...)

In hindsight, I should have told them that it was a total loss, that it wasn't worth fixing, but they were stubborn, and wanted it working, because they had paid so much for it initially, years and years ago. (Not from me, it was a branded OEM rig.)

I felt a little bad about that (even though I was just following their wishes), and bought them a refurb Windows 7 Core2-era PC for $100 and gave it to them, to replace the P4. Well, they gave the Windows 7 PC to one of their kids, and kept on using the P4. Shrug. I tried.

Edit: But that last anecdote illustrates why it might be "bad" to sell a too-expensive PC, because then they won't want to upgrade, ever, even when it's way past the time, because they have some sort of emotional connection / block due to the high price of the PC.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Well, I'm not really sure where "not responsible" aligns with "highly mobile", unless you are referring to people that are so poor that they find that they have to move often, because they're constantly getting kicked out. (Could happen.)

I have a friend, that is "poor". (On a relatively fixed income, section 8, etc.). But he works, part-time, at a nearby business. (I give him mad props for having a job, and being responsible about that.)

But he got one of his tax checks back, and you know what he wants to do with it? The same thing that he wants to do every time he gets a hold of a large sum of money: "Let's go to (a casino in a nearby state.)".

He doesn't think, "Pay my bills", or "invest in infrastructure" (car, computer, etc.).

And yet, his 2008-era PC is falling apart. He called me the other night at 11:30 at night, after he was getting "out of memory errors", and I told him to re-start. Well, it never did, he had to call me from a pay phone, because he couldn't use his MagicJack, because that requires his PC to use.

I told him I'd show up and fix it for him, for $30. Turned out, his 10-year-old HDD was dying / dead, and dragging down the rest of the PC. (His OS drive is an SSD, thanks to me.)

At what point do I refuse to fix his PC, to force him to get a new one? I've suggested multiple times to possibly consider getting a new one. Which, he doesn't bother, he thinks his is just fine. Until it breaks down at midnight (again), and calls me, "You gotta come over and fix this for me!".

I've been trying to push him to sign up for the $10/mo internet like I just got (unlimited 4G LTE data, at ~6Mbit/sec), but he... isn't interested. He's leaching internet off of a neighbor (with permission), instead of putting down the $195 up front for the MiFi and first year of service.

If he loses his internet, he's going to be dead in the water. If it wasn't for me, he wouldn't even have internet today. (I hooked him up with a "high-power" wireless N USB adapter, so he could reach his neighbor's router, two stories up.)

I'd love to build him a really decent i5-6500/6600K rig, with 16GB+ of DDR4-2400/3000, and a 240GB SSD, and maybe later, a gaming-grade video card. (He's expressed interest in playing KI on PC.) But he'd have to pay for it, I'm not buying him that class of rig.

Or even, buying one of my G3258 OC w/GTX950 rigs, 16GB, SSD, and I'd cut him a discount. (More like, I'd eat some of the cost, and sell it below my cost.)

But again, he'd rather go to the casino.

Edit: I've got another occasional client, that has a P4 rig with XP. Well, they got hit by the "Indian tech support scam", and I had to re-format that rig, and fix it back up for them. (This was just before XP was EOL.) I charged her probably $100 in labor on that job, which required three days of my time. (XP update issues...)

In hindsight, I should have told them that it was a total loss, that it wasn't worth fixing, but they were stubborn, and wanted it working, because they had paid so much for it initially, years and years ago. (Not from me, it was a branded OEM rig.)

I felt a little bad about that (even though I was just following their wishes), and bought them a refurb Windows 7 Core2-era PC for $100 and gave it to them, to replace the P4. Well, they gave the Windows 7 PC to one of their kids, and kept on using the P4. Shrug. I tried.

People who waste what little money they have at casinos when they have actual stuff they need to buy don't deserve a lick of sympathy, IMO.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Back on topic, what about getting an i3-6100, and BCLK OC it to 4.3+Ghz on an ASRock B150 "K4/Hyper" board? (Seems that their H170 "Hyper" board with M.2 slot was discontinued?)

ASRock's "Hyper" boards have the "Hyper BCLK adjust" feature.

Edit: Just checked Newegg and their ebay store, looks like the ASRock "Hyper" boards are no longer available.

 

[whm1974]

People who waste what little money they have at casinos when they have actual stuff they need to buy don't deserve a lick of sympathy, IMO.

I agree. Same thing with smoking and drinking.

 

[whm1974]

Edit: I've got another occasional client, that has a P4 rig with XP. Well, they got hit by the "Indian tech support scam", and I had to re-format that rig, and fix it back up for them. (This was just before XP was EOL.) I charged her probably $100 in labor on that job, which required three days of my time. (XP update issues...)

In hindsight, I should have told them that it was a total loss, that it wasn't worth fixing, but they were stubborn, and wanted it working, because they had paid so much for it initially, years and years ago. (Not from me, it was a branded OEM rig.)

I felt a little bad about that (even though I was just following their wishes), and bought them a refurb Windows 7 Core2-era PC for $100 and gave it to them, to replace the P4. Well, they gave the Windows 7 PC to one of their kids, and kept on using the P4. Shrug. I tried.

Edit: But that last anecdote illustrates why it might be "bad" to sell a too-expensive PC, because then they won't want to upgrade, ever, even when it's way past the time, because they have some sort of emotional connection / block due to the high price of the PC.

A while back ago I had a friend who ask me what is wrong with his computer that still "works". He kept looking at me funny after I told him "it's almost ten years old!!!"

I had to convince my dad to get a new system by building one and letting him make payments.

 

[BeauCharles]

For what you want to do it really doesn't matter. Haswell Refresh or Skylake Pentium, AMD FX or APU - they'll all serve that purpose. Go with what's cheapest.

 

[VirtualLarry]

For what you want to do it really doesn't matter. Haswell Refresh or Skylake Pentium, AMD FX or APU - they'll all serve that purpose. Go with what's cheapest.

See, that's how I feel. "Everyone" else on here seems to think that the only worthy CPU for a desktop is a quad-core.

That's like asking what kind of car should someone get for their daily commute, and "everyone" telling me that it should be a pickup truck. ("You never know when you might get a job hauling mulch." - "You never know when the user might find an avocation editing 4K videos.")

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Well, I'm not really sure where "not responsible" aligns with "highly mobile", unless you are referring to people that are so poor that they find that they have to move often, because they're constantly getting kicked out. (Could happen.)

I have a friend, that is "poor". (On a relatively fixed income, section 8, etc.). But he works, part-time, at a nearby business. (I give him mad props for having a job, and being responsible about that.)

But he got one of his tax checks back, and you know what he wants to do with it? The same thing that he wants to do every time he gets a hold of a large sum of money: "Let's go to (a casino in a nearby state.)".

He doesn't think, "Pay my bills", or "invest in infrastructure" (car, computer, etc.).

And yet, his 2008-era PC is falling apart. He called me the other night at 11:30 at night, after he was getting "out of memory errors", and I told him to re-start. Well, it never did, he had to call me from a pay phone, because he couldn't use his MagicJack, because that requires his PC to use.

I told him I'd show up and fix it for him, for $30. Turned out, his 10-year-old HDD was dying / dead, and dragging down the rest of the PC. (His OS drive is an SSD, thanks to me.)

At what point do I refuse to fix his PC, to force him to get a new one? I've suggested multiple times to possibly consider getting a new one. Which, he doesn't bother, he thinks his is just fine. Until it breaks down at midnight (again), and calls me, "You gotta come over and fix this for me!".

I've been trying to push him to sign up for the $10/mo internet like I just got (unlimited 4G LTE data, at ~6Mbit/sec), but he... isn't interested. He's leaching internet off of a neighbor (with permission), instead of putting down the $195 up front for the MiFi and first year of service.

If he loses his internet, he's going to be dead in the water. If it wasn't for me, he wouldn't even have internet today. (I hooked him up with a "high-power" wireless N USB adapter, so he could reach his neighbor's router, two stories up.)

I'd love to build him a really decent i5-6500/6600K rig, with 16GB+ of DDR4-2400/3000, and a 240GB SSD, and maybe later, a gaming-grade video card. (He's expressed interest in playing KI on PC.) But he'd have to pay for it, I'm not buying him that class of rig.

Or even, buying one of my G3258 OC w/GTX950 rigs, 16GB, SSD, and I'd cut him a discount. (More like, I'd eat some of the cost, and sell it below my cost.)

But again, he'd rather go to the casino.

Edit: I've got another occasional client, that has a P4 rig with XP. Well, they got hit by the "Indian tech support scam", and I had to re-format that rig, and fix it back up for them. (This was just before XP was EOL.) I charged her probably $100 in labor on that job, which required three days of my time. (XP update issues...)

In hindsight, I should have told them that it was a total loss, that it wasn't worth fixing, but they were stubborn, and wanted it working, because they had paid so much for it initially, years and years ago. (Not from me, it was a branded OEM rig.)

I felt a little bad about that (even though I was just following their wishes), and bought them a refurb Windows 7 Core2-era PC for $100 and gave it to them, to replace the P4. Well, they gave the Windows 7 PC to one of their kids, and kept on using the P4. Shrug. I tried.

Edit: But that last anecdote illustrates why it might be "bad" to sell a too-expensive PC, because then they won't want to upgrade, ever, even when it's way past the time, because they have some sort of emotional connection / block due to the high price of the PC.

You should probably stop giving free computers to gullible bums.

 

[Arachnotronic]

See, that's how I feel. "Everyone" else on here seems to think that the only worthy CPU for a desktop is a quad-core.

No. I have an i3-6320 in one of my desktops (not used for gaming; 100% for productivity/web surfing) and it's fine.

What people seem to have a problem with is that you buy, like, a ton of these super low end systems and none of them ever seems to be good enough for you (and you are quite vocal about it here; what PC parts one purchases and stays mum about is of no interest to anybody on this forum).

We watch in frustration knowing that if you just bought a 6700K or something with the money you keep burning on the lower end stuff, you would hand less of your money over to PC component makers and have a better computing experience, to boot.

That's like asking what kind of car should someone get for their daily commute, and "everyone" telling me that it should be a pickup truck. ("You never know when you might get a job hauling mulch." - "You never know when the user might find an avocation editing 4K videos.")

I would recommend that people buy the fastest/more feature rich product that they can reasonably afford for the system, especially when it comes to CPUs, which can have a very long useful life. I would have loved to get an i7 6700 for the aforementioned system of mine, but I already spend way too much on computer hardware as it is so it's what I could afford for it.