Wisconsin solution

[CADsortaGUY]

I know this is about Wisconsin and the Union/Budget situation but the other threads are so muddy that I figure I'd start one that was only for offering solutions and debating each of the solutions.

Rules:
1. To offer a solution declare it by putting "solution #:" in front of it(where # is a number).
2. To reply to a solution in support of or against put the # you are replying to.
Please do one of the two above, keep other BS out.

I don't expect this thread to survive long as people won't want to follow the rules set forth...but I'm up for being surprised.


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Solution 1: Pull bargaining issue out of the bill and pass it as a stand alone bill. Once passed, vote on budget bill. Everyone wins!

 

[manimal]

Solution : Pull the language with collective bargaining in it and go with the cost savings that are already agreed to. Everyone wins~!

 

[dmcowen674]

Solution : Pull the language with collective bargaining in it and go with the cost savings that are already agreed to. Everyone wins~!

OP and his Republicans would never go for that.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Solution 2: Pull the language with collective bargaining in it and go with the cost savings that are already agreed to. Everyone wins~!

Reply to solution 2: The tax payers still lose in the long run and the county and municipal gov'ts don't get the flexibility they need and deserve to have.

 

[manimal]

Reply to solution 2: The tax payers still lose in the long run and the county and municipal gov'ts don't get the flexibility they need and deserve to have.

reply to reply to solution 2: As a few have already stated the pension system in that state is in pretty good shape. The short term budget flexibility Canards we keep hearing are irrelevent since these pensions are owed for services and performance already rendered. How would you like your employer going into your bank account or more accurately 401k and removeing funds and contributions you already earned?

 

[JSt0rm]

Solution 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-XYPJ3_YAY

 

[CADsortaGUY]

reply to reply to solution 2: As a few have already stated the pension system in that state is in pretty good shape. The short term budget flexibility Canards we keep hearing are irrelevent since these pensions are owed for services and performance already rendered. How would you like your employer going into your bank account or more accurately 401k and removeing funds and contributions you already earned?

reply to #2: budget flex is real and is no canard. This is about going forward from now and will not affect the past contributions so no, it's not even remotely close to my employer going into a bank account or 401K and removing funds.

 

[wuliheron]

Re-invent the guillotine!

It's a nonpartisan solution where we simply cut off everybody's head and start over. This will impress on their replacements the real desire for actually doing something constructive.

 

[Sinsear]

Solution: stop balancing budgets on the backs of the workers. They are not the ones who caused the economic downturn but are being made in to scapegoats.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Solution 4: stop balancing budgets on the backs of the workers. They are not the ones who caused the economic downturn but are being made in to scapegoats.

reply to #4: http://blog.cagle.com/2011/03/breaking-backs/ sure, it's not the only problem but it sure isn't the only thing being done to balance the budgets as is being suggested by certain folks.

 

[Jhhnn]

Reply to solution 2: The tax payers still lose in the long run and the county and municipal gov'ts don't get the flexibility they need and deserve to have.

In other words, your original question is an ontology, right?

What's the point of the question if there's only one answer you'll accept?

 

[glenn1]

Solution 5: Forget about it and do something else constructive until it passes basically as written. And it will pass, see what happened with Obamacare. It took over a year and much gnashing of teeth, but it passed - just like the Republicans couldn't stop that, Democrats won't be able to stop this either.

 

[Slew Foot]

#1 Give the unions everything they want

#2 raise taxes on everyone else to cover all the costs

#3 Laugh as the productive members of the state leave and the state goes into bankruptcy.

 

[Jhhnn]

Solution 5: Forget about it and do something else constructive until it passes basically as written. And it will pass, see what happened with Obamacare. It took over a year and much gnashing of teeth, but it passed - just like the Republicans couldn't stop that, Democrats won't be able to stop this either.

Opposition from repubs and corporate dems insured that healthcare reform wouldn't be what it should have been, at all, but you already knew that, right?

It remains to be seen if Walker's proposals will actually pass, and if they'll pass the test of federal judicial review, either.

 

[wuliheron]

Solution: stop balancing budgets on the backs of the workers. They are not the ones who caused the economic downturn but are being made in to scapegoats.

Quite yer whining. Shit rolls down hill and always has. This is America and the rich have always occupied the top of the hill. If Unions want some of the shit to stop hitting them they'll just have to fight like everyone else for a higher position on the hill.

 

[Patranus]

#1 Give the unions everything they want

#2 raise taxes on everyone else to cover all the costs

#3 Laugh as the productive members of the state leave and the state goes into bankruptcy.

#4 ???

#5 Profit

 

[alphatarget1]

I think a lower standard of living is a natural progression of things in a global economy- companies are trying to boost their profits by partly lowering their cost. US workers will suffer from the lack of jobs and those who have jobs will have stagnant wages.

It's a fact of life. In the same time people elsewhere in the world are having their standard of living improved as a result of companies' cost saving measures. It saddens me that America's most productive states in the Midwest are suffering and places where financial and law firms are still flourishing, they don't create anything tangible for our economy! Hell, iphone app programmers don't bring anything really useful to our economy either, yet I suppose a lot of the good ones aren't suffering.

Many of our fellow citizens lived way beyond their means when the times were good. I'm sure there are still plenty of improvements possible in various outsourced industries that companies who moved offshore have overlooked.

At a time when the average American taxpaying worker is suffering from either lack of work or stagnant wages, why isn't it fair to ask for concessions in the public sector whose salaries are paid by workers in the private sector? Do you really think getting rid of collective bargaining will mean that government workers will suffer? Aside from cops and firefighters who actually do things from time to time, a lot of public sector workers are lazy as hell and don't do crap to deserve the amount of pay they get.

I was an intern for a city and that's how it was, and I doubt anything has changed in the last 5 years.

 

[Xellos2099]

I say we give 3 day limit for teachers to return to school or fire all the teacher who are still protesting. After that, rehire as non union, problem solve.

 

[ProfJohn]

Solution: stop balancing budgets on the backs of the workers. They are not the ones who caused the economic downturn but are being made in to scapegoats.

So you are against raising taxes on the workers?

 

[Sinsear]

So you are against raising taxes on the workers?

Of course. But nice try to bait me. What i was referring to was the recent trend of public employees all of a sudden "have it too good" and are a "privileged class", we have to take from them. I never heard anyone complaining when business was booming and houses were being flipped, etc etc. Too much trying to make public employees scapegoats.

 

[wuliheron]

The simplest solution is to eat the poorest of the poor and then work our way up the food chain as necessary. They can be ground up and fed to cattle and chickens to prevent the spread of disease and avoid unnecessary costs such as funerals. It is natures way of efficiently weeding out the weak and just plain unlucky.

Let's face it, times are tough and Americans are no longer competitive despite getting all the welfare mothers off their lazy butts, our workforce being about as productive as anyone on the planet, only having 2% of the workforce unionized, and working longer hours then even the Japanese. We need new incentives to get people working harder so they can compete with third world countries paying people pennies a day. Since pay raises are out of the question, that means the stick and nothing inspires people to work harder then the fear of death.

 

[ProfJohn]

Of course. But nice try to bait me. What i was referring to was the recent trend of public employees all of a sudden "have it too good" and are a "privileged class", we have to take from them. I never heard anyone complaining when business was booming and houses were being flipped, etc etc. Too much trying to make public employees scapegoats.

In the last 4 year about 5% of American workers have lost their jobs. Nearly all of those are private sector employees. Meanwhile the public sector employees keep getting yearly raises and free healthcare and tons of other perks that many private sector employees can only dream about.

We have seen numerous reports and studies that indicate that public sector employees are now paid more in salary and benefits than private employees and on top of that the public employees have nearly 100% guaranteed job security.

That is a problem.

Our government is too big and takes too much money out of the economy and it needs to shrink. At the same time we cannot continue to pay public employees highly inflated salaries to go along with all the time off and free healthcare and other perks.

The steps taken in Wisconsin are a good start. Make them pay for healthcare like everyone else does and take away their ability to blackmail the public (via strikes) in order to control their pay and benefits.


BTW perhaps you missed the link I posted about the city of Milwaukee having to pay its teachers over $100,000 each (pay + benefits)?? Pretty good money for a 9 month a year job with great hours and great job security.

 

[Sinsear]

In the last 4 year about 5% of American workers have lost their jobs. Nearly all of those are private sector employees. Meanwhile the public sector employees keep getting yearly raises and free healthcare and tons of other perks that many private sector employees can only dream about.

We have seen numerous reports and studies that indicate that public sector employees are now paid more in salary and benefits than private employees and on top of that the public employees have nearly 100% guaranteed job security.

That is a problem.

Our government is too big and takes too much money out of the economy and it needs to shrink. At the same time we cannot continue to pay public employees highly inflated salaries to go along with all the time off and free healthcare and other perks.

The steps taken in Wisconsin are a good start. Make them pay for healthcare like everyone else does and take away their ability to blackmail the public (via strikes) in order to control their pay and benefits.


BTW perhaps you missed the link I posted about the city of Milwaukee having to pay its teachers over $100,000 each (pay + benefits)?? Pretty good money for a 9 month a year job with great hours and great job security.

You sound jealous. And not all public employees can strike.

 

[fskimospy]

Stripping the anti-union language out of the bill is the obvious reasonable compromise. The governor gets the fiscal concessions he wants, the unions get to continue to exist. If there are additional fiscal considerations that need to be taken into account, include them in the bill.

I think it's pretty clear that he has retreated to this nebulous concept of 'needing flexibility' (that as far as I am aware of no municipality has said they require) in order to avoid giving up and looking weak. This is not a complicated problem, and Gov Walker is just digging his own political grave. It would be funnier to watch the ultra-right self destruct if they weren't causing damage on their way down.

By the way, if things continue as they are going nationwide at this time, I'll be the first one to call a complete landslide for Obama in 2012, right now, and it will be largely due to people with ideologies similar to the OP.

 

[Craig234]

#1: I think the Dems offered this and got a 'no'.

#2: This is the reasonable solution. The unions have ALREADY conceded ALL the money.

This is about the Republicans pursuing a radical and immoral power grab policy to destroy the unions SIMPLY to try to remove funding from the Democracy.

The fact it also lowers wages for their rich donors doesn't hurt.

CAD's reply to #2 was really pathetic and defeated any 'suggestion discussion'.

Who hacked Sinsear? When I saw his post quoted I had to read the rest that were ignored and he is very reasonable in this thread.

PJ continues to put out misinformation and to parrot talking points as usual.

What is there really needed on suggestions, it's just a question who will win a power struggle, those pursuing a radical selfish power grab to attack the middle class or unions.