Wisconsin court upholds voter ID law

[Jhhnn]

Both of yall are short term thinkers.

People who wish to vote will learn about the new laws and adjust their behaviors as such.

Just as someone has to go through a background check to buy a gun, so voters will have to get an id. There is no difference between the two.

And now the shotgun approach to false equivalency.

You simply fail to show cause for strict voter ID. After that, it's all bullshit & obfuscation.

 

[thraashman]

And now the shotgun approach to false equivalency.

You simply fail to show cause for strict voter ID. After that, it's all bullshit & obfuscation.

His argument is that "it will eventually no longer massively cause disenfranchisement so it's ok". Which is like saying that it would be ok to spread malaria across the US because sure some people will die, probably even tens of thousands, but eventually we'll all develop an immunity to it.

 

[Texashiker]

And now the shotgun approach to false equivalency.

You simply fail to show cause for strict voter ID. After that, it's all bullshit & obfuscation.

His argument is that "it will eventually no longer massively cause disenfranchisement so it's ok". Which is like saying that it would be ok to spread malaria across the US because sure some people will die, probably even tens of thousands, but eventually we'll all develop an immunity to it.

Requiring an id to vote will only disenfranchise voters for a short period of time, and then only the ones who do not keep up on current changes to the voting laws.

Just like getting a job or buying a firearm, people will learn the new laws and adjust.

 

[Jhhnn]

His argument is that "it will eventually no longer massively cause disenfranchisement so it's ok". Which is like saying that it would be ok to spread malaria across the US because sure some people will die, probably even tens of thousands, but eventually we'll all develop an immunity to it.

It's that inner authoritarian thing shining through. All Righties have it, even those with Libertopian delusions.

Eventually, it could all end up like N Korea (except with guns, of course) because people would get used to it. It ends up in a lot of places I find rather unattractive.

 

[Texashiker]

Eventually, it could all end up like N Korea (except with guns, of course) because people would get used to it. It ends up in a lot of places I find rather unattractive.

Did you get used to providing a SS to your employer?

Did you get used to providing id and background check to buy a gun?

Then you will get used to providing id to vote.

This is the new way of doing things, deal with it.

 

[Bowfinger]

"This is the new way of doing things, deal with it."

I encourage everyone to remember that line, and to throw it back in TH's face every time you see him crying about abortion, or immigration, or welfare, or any of the long list of ridiculous things he constantly rages about. He apparently doesn't care about right or wrong at all, but rather what is legal. (This is richly hypocritical given his recent thread where he claimed conservatives cared about right and wrong while liberals only cared about legality.)

And now that there is growing factual evidence that the only thing these voter ID laws accomplish is suppressing certain demographics, I expect we'll see more and more of these laws overturned. When TH starts whining about that, remember, "This is the new way of doing things, deal with it"

 

[Texashiker]

I encourage everyone to remember that line, and to throw it back in TH's face every time you see him crying about abortion, or immigration, or welfare, or any of the long list of ridiculous things he constantly rages about.

He apparently doesn't care about right or wrong at all, but rather what is legal. (This is richly hypocritical given his recent thread where he claimed conservatives cared about right and wrong while liberals only cared about legality.)

Thank you, I needed the lulz.

Requiring an id to vote is neither right nor wrong, at least not in the same sense as murdering an unborn child.

Getting an id takes just a few minutes. Get an id, get registered, then go vote.

 

[Brainonska511]

Getting an id takes just a few minutes.

All evidence says that you are wrong.

 

[Bowfinger]

Thank you, I needed the lulz.

You need far more than that.

Requiring an id to vote is neither right nor wrong,

For any thinking person, something that does more harm than good is wrong. For any fair-minded person, laws intended solely to help one party subvert democracy are wrong. YMMV.

at least not in the same sense as murdering an unborn child.

"This is the new way of doing things, deal with it."

Getting an id takes just a few minutes. Get an id, get registered, then go vote.

You've been repeatedly shown this is false. You can therefore no longer claim willful ignorance as your defense. Instead, it is willful, purely partisan dishonesty. FYI, that is also a wrong (since you seem a little foggy on the right vs. wrong thing).

 

[Texashiker]

You need far more than that.

My wife told me I need to increase my medicine; not sure what I should do.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Lets be honest for a second here. When other countries including UN election monitors look at our elections, they're shocked there's zero ID checking.

In many countries, you show your ID and you vote. Now I'll admit that its likely easier to do that when you have a national ID card. Here in the US we have a freaking paper SS card that looks like its from the 1800s, and we have broken state systems that issue drivers licenses/state IDs that are supposed to be used across the nation.

Now as broken as that may be, it is really easy to get an ID. We really need to move to a national ID card or some sort of standard across the states. Maybe have all of them have EMV chips or some sort of standardized info across all of the state IDs if we want to avoid a national ID.

But the other thing is we need to focus on getting people IDs. You need an ID to do a lot of things in this country. Rather than focusing on moving people into the 21st century--look at the modernized nations in Europe and Asia. Life moves fast. Everyone gets with the system. Instead, in the US, we spend all our time squabbling about people getting left behind and rather than helping them get forward, we never improve our systems and we continue to fund a broken system. So get people IDs. Upgrade the ID standard, and you know what? After the old fogies die off, there's no excuse for millenials now to not have IDs.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Lets be honest for a second here. When other countries including UN election monitors look at our elections, they're shocked there's zero ID checking.

In many countries, you show your ID and you vote. Now I'll admit that its likely easier to do that when you have a national ID card. Here in the US we have a freaking paper SS card that looks like its from the 1800s, and we have broken state systems that issue drivers licenses/state IDs that are supposed to be used across the nation.

Now as broken as that may be, it is really easy to get an ID. We really need to move to a national ID card or some sort of standard across the states. Maybe have all of them have EMV chips or some sort of standardized info across all of the state IDs if we want to avoid a national ID.

But the other thing is we need to focus on getting people IDs. You need an ID to do a lot of things in this country. Rather than focusing on moving people into the 21st century--look at the modernized nations in Europe and Asia. Life moves fast. Everyone gets with the system. Instead, in the US, we spend all our time squabbling about people getting left behind and rather than helping them get forward, we never improve our systems and we continue to fund a broken system. So get people IDs. Upgrade the ID standard, and you know what? After the old fogies die off, there's no excuse for millenials now to not have IDs.

When European countries look at us they're also shocked that we allow citizens to buy all manner of guns for seemingly any reason, or that so many people own huge trucks and SUVs, or that we allow people to say all manner of flat-out lies about celebrities without being guilty of slander. So what? We aren't Europe; the same laws that work in any random European country aren't necessarily going to fly over here in a country with 100 times the landmass and 20 times the population. Could voter ID? Probably. But it would be nice if the people who were trying to institute it could sort out all the logistics well beforehand, not try to get it instituted at the eleventh hour to disenfranchise voters who won't elect the people they want. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and proponents of it are misrepresenting their reasoning for attempting to pass it so hastily.

 

[Jhhnn]

Getting an id takes just a few minutes. Get an id, get registered, then go vote.

Except that's not true for everybody- Jim Cramer's father, for example.

Show us cause to make it a hassle for anybody- show us the fraud. Show us a reason other than suppression of votes you'd rather weren't cast.

It's all about making the votes of right wing zealots more potent. They vote like punching the time clock at work. If they were 10% of eligible voters & everybody else stayed away, they'd claim an overwhelming mandate when they won, govern accordingly. It goes back for decades-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsl_TuFdes

 

[feralkid]

This is the new way of doing things, deal with it.

Yes, allowing marriage equality truly is. So what the hell is your problem?

 

[glenn1]

Lets be honest for a second here. When other countries including UN election monitors look at our elections, they're shocked there's zero ID checking.

In many countries, you show your ID and you vote. Now I'll admit that its likely easier to do that when you have a national ID card. Here in the US we have a freaking paper SS card that looks like its from the 1800s, and we have broken state systems that issue drivers licenses/state IDs that are supposed to be used across the nation.

Now as broken as that may be, it is really easy to get an ID. We really need to move to a national ID card or some sort of standard across the states. Maybe have all of them have EMV chips or some sort of standardized info across all of the state IDs if we want to avoid a national ID.

But the other thing is we need to focus on getting people IDs. You need an ID to do a lot of things in this country. Rather than focusing on moving people into the 21st century--look at the modernized nations in Europe and Asia. Life moves fast. Everyone gets with the system. Instead, in the US, we spend all our time squabbling about people getting left behind and rather than helping them get forward, we never improve our systems and we continue to fund a broken system. So get people IDs. Upgrade the ID standard, and you know what? After the old fogies die off, there's no excuse for millenials now to not have IDs.

Because it's only a position of expediency for one side rather than a matter of principle. At least if they were consistent and honest in their motives (say, advocating for an outright end to all government fees on documents as a public good) I could respect them. Combine free IDs and government docs with even slightly more robust alternative identification protocol (voter PIN, checking non-public info against a government database) and you'd increase election security by orders of magnitude at a trivial cost. instead they just roll with being willfully blind to pathetically easy means of voter fraud just because they think it's their voting base.

 

[fskimospy]

Because it's only a position of expediency for one side rather than a matter of principle. At least if they were consistent and honest in their motives (say, advocating for an outright end to all government fees on documents as a public good) I could respect them. Combine free IDs and government docs with even slightly more robust alternative identification protocol (voter PIN, checking non-public info against a government database) and you'd increase election security by orders of magnitude at a trivial cost. instead they just roll with being willfully blind to pathetically easy means of voter fraud just because they think it's their voting base.

We're still waiting for you to provide any evidence whatsoever of this 'pathetically easy voter fraud' taking place.

Additionally, where did you get the idea that free government IDs and documents along with voter PIN numbers and info checks could be accomplished at a trivial cost? That is almost certainly completely untrue.

What kind of ID/PIN mechanisms were you looking to implement? What sort of databases are we setting up in all states to check them? Who is paying for the infrastructure, support services, training, security, and troubleshooting for these systems? Etc, etc.

I would say I get the feeling you haven't thought this through, but let's face it, you want voter ID to 'get' the other political sports team, not for any merit it has. Because of this you will search for endless justifications just like Texashiker.

 

[Bowfinger]

Lets be honest for a second here. When other countries including UN election monitors look at our elections, they're shocked there's zero ID checking.

In many countries, you show your ID and you vote. Now I'll admit that its likely easier to do that when you have a national ID card. Here in the US we have a freaking paper SS card that looks like its from the 1800s, and we have broken state systems that issue drivers licenses/state IDs that are supposed to be used across the nation.

Now as broken as that may be, it is really easy to get an ID. We really need to move to a national ID card or some sort of standard across the states. Maybe have all of them have EMV chips or some sort of standardized info across all of the state IDs if we want to avoid a national ID.

But the other thing is we need to focus on getting people IDs. You need an ID to do a lot of things in this country. Rather than focusing on moving people into the 21st century--look at the modernized nations in Europe and Asia. Life moves fast. Everyone gets with the system. Instead, in the US, we spend all our time squabbling about people getting left behind and rather than helping them get forward, we never improve our systems and we continue to fund a broken system. So get people IDs. Upgrade the ID standard, and you know what? After the old fogies die off, there's no excuse for millenials now to not have IDs.

Because it's only a position of expediency for one side rather than a matter of principle. At least if they were consistent and honest in their motives (say, advocating for an outright end to all government fees on documents as a public good) I could respect them. Combine free IDs and government docs with even slightly more robust alternative identification protocol (voter PIN, checking non-public info against a government database) and you'd increase election security by orders of magnitude at a trivial cost. instead they just roll with being willfully blind to pathetically easy means of voter fraud just because they think it's their voting base.

No, because we live in the real world. While ensuring every single eligible voter has an ID may be a laudable goal, it's not the reality today. The reality today is we have Republican states enacting laws designed to disenfranchise certain demographics, demographics that tend to lean left. That's a fact today. As far as I know, none of these Republican states have implemented the solutions you suggest. Indeed, none have even tried. Until your proposed ideals are actually in place, the current voter suppression laws do far more harm than good.

And Eskimospy is absolutely right: such programs will not be cheap to implement. That's another reality we face today. Unless Republicans believe money is no object, the cost of any such universal ID far, far outweighs the benefits of stopping a handful of in-person voter impersonations each election.

 

[glenn1]

We're still waiting for you to provide any evidence whatsoever of this 'pathetically easy voter fraud' taking place.

Additionally, where did you get the idea that free government IDs and documents along with voter PIN numbers and info checks could be accomplished at a trivial cost? That is almost certainly completely untrue.

What kind of ID/PIN mechanisms were you looking to implement? What sort of databases are we setting up in all states to check them? Who is paying for the infrastructure, support services, training, security, and troubleshooting for these systems? Etc, etc.

I would say I get the feeling you haven't thought this through, but let's face it, you want voter ID to 'get' the other political sports team, not for any merit it has. Because of this you will search for endless justifications just like Texashiker.

Like I said, completely uninterested because you prefer willful blindness. Even when I suggest making all government documents free (a service which would disproportionately benefit the poor) you suddenly become a guardian of fiscal restraint because you think it benefits your political side. And yet you'd be the first in line to demand ID when it's for others exercising rights you disapprove of, like firearms purchases. Enjoy your supreme hypocrisy.

 

[glenn1]

No, because we live in the real world. While ensuring every single eligible voter has an ID may be a laudable goal, it's not the reality today. The reality today is we have Republican states enacting laws designed to disenfranchise certain demographics, demographics that tend to lean left. That's a fact today. As far as I know, none of these Republican states have implemented the solutions you suggest. Indeed, none have even tried. Until your proposed ideals are actually in place, the current voter suppression laws do far more harm than good.

And Eskimospy is absolutely right: such programs will not be cheap to implement. That's another reality we face today. Unless Republicans believe money is no object, the cost of any such universal ID far, far outweighs the benefits of stopping a handful of in-person voter impersonations each election.

Yeah, because progressives are just the models of fiscal restraint. Couple trillion for unions and solar power boondoggles and you cream your pants, a couple million in complementary birth certs and photo IDs and you scream it's a waste of money. This from the side who literally wishes for a fake alien invasion just to spend money in "stimulus."

 

[fskimospy]

Like I said, completely uninterested because you prefer willful blindness. Even when I suggest making all government documents free (a service which would disproportionately benefit the poor) you suddenly become a guardian of fiscal restraint because you think it benefits your political side. And yet you'd be the first in line to demand ID when it's for others exercising rights you disapprove of, like firearms purchases. Enjoy your supreme hypocrisy.

That was a really long way of saying "I can't support my bullshit statements".

 

[glenn1]

That was a really long way of saying "I can't support my bullshit statements".

And like I said earlier, I don't have to when Crawford v. Marion County Election Board has already been decided and allows Voter ID. You're on the losing side and need to make the convincing argument, not me.

 

[glenn1]

That was a really long way of saying "I can't support my bullshit statements".

Like I said, you're the one who needs the better argument, not me. This just came out earlier today, and Voter ID is back on in Texas.

5th Circuit Puts TX GOP's 'Discriminatory' and 'Unconstitutional' Photo ID Law Back in Effect

 

[Bowfinger]

Yeah, because progressives are just the models of fiscal restraint. Couple trillion for unions and solar power boondoggles and you cream your pants, a couple million in complementary birth certs and photo IDs and you scream it's a waste of money. This from the side who literally wishes for a fake alien invasion just to spend money in "stimulus."

You're ignoring the point. First, I'm fine with the expense of such a universal ID program ... if it accomplishes something worthwhile. Based on all the evidence found so far, however, it does not, at least not related to vote fraud. If there are other valuable benefits to such a program and it can be used as a voter ID too, I'm fine with it.

More importantly, the fact remains your universal ID does not exist today, nor are Republican states enacting these voter suppression laws trying to implement one. Your suggestion is therefore moot to today's reality. It is unacceptable to disenfranchise millions of legitimate voters today with the hope that maybe, someday, someone will implement your universal ID idea.

 

[glenn1]

You're ignoring the point. First, I'm fine with the expense of such a universal ID program ... if it accomplishes something worthwhile. Based on all the evidence found so far, however, it does not, at least not related to vote fraud. If there are other valuable benefits to such a program and it can be used as a voter ID too, I'm fine with it.

More importantly, the fact remains your universal ID does not exist today, nor are Republican states enacting these voter suppression laws trying to implement one. Your suggestion is therefore moot to today's reality. It is unacceptable to disenfranchise millions of legitimate voters today with the hope that maybe, someday, someone will implement your universal ID idea.

It's just as unacceptable to continue with completely inadequate or even no controls on voter identity. And if you don't agree with that then we really do have nothing more to discuss and this will again come down to an exercise in pure political power.

 

[Bowfinger]

Like I said, you're the one who needs the better argument, not me. This just came out earlier today, and Voter ID is back on in Texas.

5th Circuit Puts TX GOP's 'Discriminatory' and 'Unconstitutional' Photo ID Law Back in Effect

Note that the 5th Circuit did not state that Texas was right, or likely to prevail, but only that it was too close to the election to change the rules again. The case will continue.