Wireless repeaters? Cheap alternative?

[StealthX32]

Alright, so here's the deal. Our school has wireless capabilities throughout the entire campus, and even off campus in the school-owned-off-campus apartments. The thing is, I'm living in a house that's across the street from the apartment, that's not owned by the school. The wireless can reach the front window of the house, but not the back, so I thinking I need some sort of repeating solution.

My initial thought was to have a computer sitting at the window with a wireless card, and then basically make that computer into a router. That's probably my last resort, since I need to dedicate a whole computer just for that. Also, since our school provides free static IPs, I'd like to take advantage of that and not use NAT (or is there a way to bridge the two networks w/o using NAT?).

I hear that some WAPs have bridging capabilities, but they can only bridge between another WAP set in bridge mode? Linksys has a consumer Wireless bridge, that's here. According to this diagram, I can take the wireless bridge, hook it into the LAN port of a WAP and do it that way, correct? That'll total out to around $250, which is gonna be about the same as setting a up a computer w/ a PCI wireless card ($75), another WAP ($125), and a cheap old Pentium III computer ($50). Even with the bridge, would I be able to avoid using NAT? It seems like the bridge itself has an IP...soooo, I'm lost.

Other than that, I can't really think of something to do... If there's any simpler/cheaper solutions that you know of, please feel free to share. Thanks!

Edited for typos.

 

[JackMDS]

The Network?s Entry level hardware producer took lessons from the writers of the small letter attachments in insurance policies, they never write clearly what their gizmos can or can not do.

I am not sure that the Linksys WAP that you mentioned is different then other WAPs that can be configured like a bridge, it looks like it is connected to the Router with a cable.

Your source is the school Network; you need a Client Wireless card on the front window to be able to receive the signal. If you don?t want to put a computer you need a WAP thta can be configured as an independent client card (I think that D-Link, and Netgear have such WAPs), from that point on you can use a CAT5 to connect between the front, and the back.

If you want to go to the back wireless, and you don?t want to buy 3 WAPs.

Get a cheap simple computer with PCI Wireless Client, and USB Client. Do the same with the computer in the back. The front PCI NIC will receive the school signal. The USB cards should be configured AD-Hoc, and will transfer the signal to the back.

Could be a pain to configure the routing, but I think it should work.

 

[StealthX32]

Hmmm, do you think the AdHoc has the range to go cross-house? I thought AdHoc only had a range of a couple feet, almost bluetooth range since it's not externally powered. Also, setting up another computer in the back w/o a WAP...I'd still need a WAP to distribute to multiple people, no? We have 1 computer in the front, and about 5 in the back... I figure if I get at least one WAP (in the front), it should be able to reach the back of the house.

 

[StealthX32]

So I found a deal...a D-Link wireless access point + a PCI wireless card, all for $126 + shipping. So I'm kinda heading towards making one dedicated computer in the front. Is it possible it bridge the networks, without using NAT? (I think win2k had a "bridge connections" options, but I'd have to check up on how to use it). All I've had experience with is NAT...so I wouldn't know how to do the other without guidance. I might still consider the network bridge from Linksys (if it's actually what I need) since computer = fans = noise, and the computer will be in a bedroom.

 

[ktwebb]

You have permission to do this? Cisco's 802.11b Access Points (AP's) have a repeater mode although I have never used them with cross Mfg's AP in repeater mode. Each hop essentially cuts your bandwidth in half and Cisco hardware is quite expensive. You might be able to find a used 340 in the price range you mentioned. This all assuming the coverage is from AP's and not bridged to the campus apartments and then a secondary wireless infrastructure installed. Bridging requires the other AP to be in bridge mode or be a stand-alone bridge. In bridge mode you would have to ads another AP into the mix to broadcast to wireless clients in your house because it would only join you to the school's network wirelessly and then plug into your wired backbone device, hub or switch. Cisco BR series bridges (500 340 and 350's) will bridge and broadcast as an AP at the sametime and someone in another thread about SOHO (budget) AP's having the same capabilities after a firmware upgrade though I can't confirm or deny this. You could also have a PC or laptop with a wireless card in the range of the schools signal, external in the window if you had to etc, then have another wireless card and use Internet connection sharing on a windows machine, assuming the IP you recieve could successfully be shared. Double NAT or a proxy private IP from the school would cause you problems. There's several way to go about it but you'd need to be working in sych with the school IT staff to do any of it. I'd have to look at the coverage map and a visio diagram of the hardware or something to suggest your best route.

 

[ktwebb]

I thought AdHoc only had a range of a couple feet, almost bluetooth range since it's not externally powered.

Radios in client cards are in the same range as AP's power wise, some of them equal to the most powerful AP's at 100 mW. The problem with client cards is the antenna, not the radio power, unless of course the client cards have lower powered radios, 20-30 mW.

 

[rw120555]

Do you want wireless in your apt, or do you just want a way to connect to the wireless network across the street? e.g. do you want to be able to roam around your apt with a laptop, or are there just desktops in the back that, one way or another, you want connected to the network?

I'm not sure you understood Jack, or maybe I didn't understand your response. But anyway, buy a wap that can be configured in client mode (e.g. Netgear ME102) and place it where it can receive the signal. Connect it and all your PCs to a switch. Everything should now be part of your campus network. You will need to be running cables around your floor, so maybe you won't like that, but I think it will work (at least that was a theory floating around last week; make sure you can return stuff itf it doesn't!). All your machines will need ethernet nics, but that is far cheaper than wireless client cards.

Is that semi-clear? Again, you don't need multiple WAPs, you just need a WAP and a switch, provided you are content with having wired connections for your machines and don't wind a cable or two running across your floor. It is sort of like running a 100 foot cable across the street, except instead of using cable you are using wireless.

If this won't do for what you want, write back, and maybe we can improvise further. If you really really want wireless, I'm thinking maybe you could get 2 WAPS, one configured as a client and the other as an AP; not sure if that would work or not. Maybe it would if you put them on different channels or gave them different ssids. The client would receive the signals from across the street and the AP would rebroadcast them through your apt. Even if it does work, maybe a repeater would be cheaper.

 

[ktwebb]

Yes, an AP in client mode, or a workgroup bridge if it were a stand alone product, associated to the schools wireless infrastructure, crossover from WGB to another AP that would broadcast to wireless clients. Wouldn't have to have different SSID's but they would of course need to be on non-overlapping frequencies. I'd probably put one on 1 and the other on 11 but 1&6, or 6&11 would work assuming there is no interference elsewhere. This of course assuming he is able to associate to the school's AP's. I imagine they have a unique SSID's and hopefully MAC address filtering as well as WEP. If they have any sense anyway. And for that stealth would need permission and information from the IT department. Even if he sniffed it and broke in he probably wouldn't be on for long and might get himself expelled in the process. Also assuming the IT network staff is competent. Large assumption to be sure after working with educational institutions and wireless network infrastructure implementation for years. The company I worked for worked exclusively with schools. The university staffs had a better grasp of network security to be sure but even some of the College IT departments left their 802.11b networks semi-opened up.

 

[rw120555]

I assume he can associate though, because he knows that he can make contact from the front of the apt but not theback. So, I imagine he has tried this with a laptop or something.

I would think WEP would be kind of pointless in a setting where 1000s know the secret code. As for Mac Address filtering, something like that might work. But, at my campus, I basically plug in a new machine, and when I try to open a web page I get this screen saying I must register first (which requires that I type in a University ID and password), I do that, and the machine works from then on. So, I basically have to prove I am affiliated iwth hte university, but that is fairly easy to do as long as you are affiliated with the university. If these guys have something similar, my guess is they'll be fine.

Ktwebb, maybe you can answer one question about this client card setup: How does the WAP client card know what network to connect to? Especially if it happened to be in the range of more than one? On my Netgear ME102, the software lets me configure it as a client, and then there is a box with 00 00 00 00 00 00. WHat am I supposed to replace these 0s with? An SSID maybe, perhaps using hex codes? Or what? Like I said, in theory I think this will work, but in practice I'm not sure exactly what to do at this step.

 

[rw120555]

I just looked more carefully at the WET11. It gives you about 50 ways to use it, none of which involves hooking it up to a WAP. But, in principle, I don't see why it wouldn't work. (It is hard to tell though, because for some reason I can't get the user's guide to show up, I always get page not found.) Mostly, I wonder, does it get confused by the WAP across the street and the one it is directly connected to? Kind of like a feedback problem or something? Hopefully the separate channels avoid that.

Just remember, just because you are bridging ot a wireless network doesn't mean you have to use wireless in your apt, you could use a switch and cabled connections too. You might just email Linksys and ask if there is any reason you couldn't hook it up to a WAP. Whether this is any better than a WAP that can be configured as a client, I don't know, but I assume the docs would be pretty clear for your purposes (just wish I could view them to say for sure!)

 

[ktwebb]

How does the WAP client card know what network to connect to?

IF there are multiple AP's broadcasting the SSID it would pick up the strongest signal first in theory. If the AP(s) SSID broadcast were turned off the client would have to have that inputted manually.

 

[StealthX32]

I'd like to go all wireless in the house, so I won't have to run wires floor to floor, etc. Cisco claims that they're not compatible with anyone else, so I'll probably not try that.

The school would probably not allow me to use their wireless connection since I'm not really on campus, but I'm not trying to hide anything from them (as NAT would do). Basically, they're REALLY anal. There was an incident last year where someone stole the WAP in one of our buildings, so since that was gone, we decided to run an RJ-45 to where that WAP used to be since we didn't have a jack. About 2 weeks later, we were taken to the police station and questioned, although the cops had NO idea what they were doing, and what questions to ask, so nothing came from that (except them replacing the WAP after a year). I'm thinking they were after the person that stole the WAP rather than our plugging into their network. I'm still wondering how they knew we plugged into the jack...is it that managed? Actually, I guess it is, since even in our dorms, we have to go online and "register our outlet". Can the same be done on a wireless though? There's no physical ports...and once I've registered my MAC address, they should give me service, right?

As for the network security, our school is entirely AGAINST WEP; they say that if you want something encrypted, use a Kerberos encrypted e-mail client/telnet client. They have no belief in hardware encrpytion whatsoever. The only security that they do have against anyone plugging into the network and using it is the necessity of registering ALL MAC addresses, wireless and wired.

In their polcies, they say "ALL Apple AirPort Base Stations are banned", with some crazy reasons...here's the quote.

The Apple Airport BaseStation is BANNED from use on Campus. This ban also includes any wireless equipped Macintosh configured to act as an AirPort Software Base Station. The connection sharing features of the AirPort Base Station (hardware or software) can cause problems on the campus network. Those features are based on the same protocols used to provide network configuration information to most campus computers. Misconfiguring a base station can cause a network failure on other machines by sending them incorrect configuration information.

They also say...

No routers are permitted to be attached to any portion of the campus network. Any devices which provide routing service for IP, IPX, or AppleTalk traffic will be immediately disconnected from the campus network for a period of not less than the duration of the current academic year. Windows XP has a configuration option under the Wireless Connection Properties, in the Advanced tab labeled as, "Internet Connection Sharing". This is a form of routing and is explicitely banned. Users who cause problems due to this configuration will face disciplinary action in addition to the loss of network connectivity for the system listed above.

However!

Ethernet hubs, which attach multiple devices to a single network outlet, are not routers and may be attached to the campus network. It is important that all machines connected to a hub be registered with Data Communications (see REGISTRATION in this document).

That's basically all I'm trying to achieve, but over a wireless connection. How that we're past the ethics of all this: I think I'd go for a different SSID, as to not interfere w/ the school's network. I'm sure users in the adjoining house would rather not jump onto my network, or rather, I'd want them to chip in on all this hardware.

Now the AP in client mode would be the same as the workgroup bridge (I could definitely find an AP cheaper than the Linksys workgroup bridge)? Since I'll be running all wireless stuff, can I take that, and throw that directly into my own WAP via an RJ-45 crossover? Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[rw120555]

Now the AP in client mode would be the same as the workgroup bridge (I could definitely find an AP cheaper than the Linksys workgroup bridge)? Since I'll be running all wireless stuff, can I take that, and throw that directly into my own WAP via an RJ-45 crossover? Thanks for all the help guys.

The WET11 is $117 at Buy.com, so I bet that is as cheap as an AP that you can configure as a client. And, the WET seems to be targeted for the kind of use you have in mind -- so even if it is not really better, the docs may at least be clearer. So, I'm thinking this wet11 may be best or at least as good as anything else, but I could be wrong.

What I'm still unclear on is, how does WET11 (or WAP configured as Client) know which SSID to connect to? ktwebb referred to same ssid from multiple sources but I'm thinking more about multiple ssids from different sources. If, say, you were in range of 5 different SSIDs, could the WET11 allow 5 different PCs to each connect to a different one? I'm guessing not -- you have to somehow tell WET11 what SSID to connect to.

In your case, you say you'll use a different ssid. So, wet11 picks up an SSID from across the street. Then, 2 feet away from it is another WAP using a different SSID, a WAP that is receiving its feed from the WET11. How does WET11 keep it all straight? I'm guessing it can, but since I can't read the docs I don't know. Alas, my Netgear ME102 has no docs on its client card feature, so I don't know how I would get it to work either.

Anyway, I think there is a good chance you can do what you want, but I'm not exactly sure how to do it. I'd be interested in hearing what you get worked out.

 

[ktwebb]

What I'm still unclear on is, how does WET11 (or WAP configured as Client) know which SSID to connect to? ktwebb referred to same ssid from multiple sources but I'm thinking more about multiple ssids from different sources. If, say, you were in range of 5 different SSIDs, could the WET11 allow 5 different PCs to each connect to a different one? I'm guessing not -- you have to somehow tell WET11 what SSID to connect to.

If the SSID is being broadcast it would pick it up. It's just a wireless card on a systemboard. If not then yeah, you would have to know the SSID in the first place, without sniffer software anyway, and then manually assign it from the WGB's configuration console or web based interface. I can't speak to that product specifically but one would assume if would have a default IP for configuration practicality.

The school would probably not allow me to use their wireless connection since I'm not really on campus

How that we're past the ethics of all this

Perhaps you have rationlized as such in your mind. The first statement directly contradicts the second and if you do not have permission and you attach to your schools network, and they are relatively sharp and security consicious, you will get caught. Bank on that. You'd be much better off approaching them and working something out if possible. The alternative, especially with your prior issues with data security, could be...well it's a bad idea pard.

 

[rw120555]

If the SSID is being broadcast it would pick it up. It's just a wireless card on a systemboard. If not then yeah, you would have to know the SSID in the first place, without sniffer software anyway, and then manually assign it from the WGB's configuration console or web based interface. I can't speak to that product specifically but one would assume if would have a default IP for configuration practicality.

Sure it would pick it up, but what if it picks up two? I'm betting it works like this:

*Wet11 can be/must be manually configured for a specific SSID along with WEP if necessary. If not, I'll be very curious to see how it connects to an ethernet-ready printer the way the diagram shows it doing. Maybe a PC could feed in this kind of info as needed, but surely a printer can't.

* Wet11 won't like it if the WAP across the street and the one right next to it have the same ssid. It will try to connect to the close one, and in the process lose the needed signal coming from across the street. So, Wet11 should be configured for the SSID across the street and WAP connected to the Wet11 should use a different SSID, plus WAP and WET11 should be on different channels to minimize interference.

It is fun speculating, but it'll be nicer still when I can finally see the linksys docs to be sure.

 

[rw120555]

I am not sure that the Linksys WAP that you mentioned is different then other WAPs that can be configured like a bridge, it looks like it is connected to the Router with a cable.

Incidentally, my initial reaction was the same as yours, but after looking at it carefully I am 99% sure it connects to the router wirelessly. They have this cutesy curvy line labeled "bridge" between the wireless router and the wet11, but it doesn't represent how they are connected. Everywhere else the ethernet cable connections are clearly labeled using straight lines. Little wavy lines all point from the wet11s to the wireless router, indicating wireless connections. If they showed a WET11 connecting via cable to a WAP we'd know we were set, but the fact that they don't show it may just reflect the fact that it is kind of an unusual thing to do. The only reason we are talking about it now is because the signal from across the street isn't quite strong enough.

I'm thinking more and more this wet11 + WAP setup is viable, but we'll see.

 

[ktwebb]

It won't pick up two. It might be in range of two or more AP's and if those AP's are broadcasting the SSID it would pick up the first AP it sees. Manually setting the SSID would be the preferred method of course if you are trying to direct the WGB to a specific AP.

If not, I'll be very curious to see how it connects to an ethernet-ready printer the way the diagram shows it doing.

The printer is just a node. It has nothing to do with the SSID at all. The WGB would be the SSID specific device. The printer is solely dependant on the WGB connecting. Beyond that it doesn't care. It has a NIC in it and once an association is established between the WGB and the AP the connection is transparent to the printer or any device using that connection. If you just think of the wireless connection as an ethernet cable it's a little easier to understant perhaps. Then WGB would just be a cascaded hub connecting to the AP/wireless hub in that analogy. The printer's NIC just wants connectivity, the parameter of the wireless connection are insignificant to it or any network node that would be using that link.

but after looking at it carefully I am 99% sure it connects to the router wirelessly. They have this cutesy curvy line labeled "bridge" between the wireless router and the wet11, but it doesn't represent how they are connected

Sure it does. The orange lines are RF (Radio Frequency). Not to mention it has a dipole antenna on it. The WET11 is a wireless device with an ethernet port so wired devices can attach to the AP through the WET11. If you notice, they have a wired hub connected to the WET11, a patch cable would take care of that connection. And I am 100% sure.

 

[rw120555]

It won't pick up two. It might be in range of two or more AP's and if those AP's are broadcasting the SSID it would pick up the first AP it sees. Manually setting the SSID would be the preferred method of course if you are trying to direct the WGB to a specific AP.

Just to clarify, suppose the apt on one side of you is running wireless network with ssid MIKE and the apt on the other side of you is running wireless network with ssid JIM. Your wet11 is somewhere in the middle and can see both fine. It has a choice of 2 totally different networks to connect to -- how does it choose if you haven't told it which one? Or does it not have to choose, can it just leave the decision to any devices that are cable connected to it?

If the wet11 was connected to a switch, would pcs connected to the switch have the option of connecting to either MIKE or JIM? If MIKE or JIM is using WEP, how would those PCs provide the WEP codes? It'd be great if WET11 lets you do this, but I'm not optimistic.

If WET11 is connected to an ethernet printer, what keeps both MIKE and JIM from printing to it, even if you don't want either one to have access? I agree that the printer is totally dependent on the WGB, I'm just saying that it seems like the WGB should be configured to work with a spefic network, otherwise any network in the world could use the printer.

 

[rw120555]

Since I still can't get the stupid linksys docs to open up, I looked at the docs for the Netgear ps111w, which is a wireless print server. I figured it was similar to the wet11, just narrower in scope. With the ps111w, you fire up your web browser, type in the ip of the ps111w, you fill in an ssid for the network you want to connect to, a wep, a channel to use, etc. Thats exactly how I would expect the WET11 to work. But lord knows I have been wrong before.

 

[StealthX32]

D-Link has a similar product the DWL-810.

Perhaps you have rationlized as such in your mind. The first statement directly contradicts the second and if you do not have permission and you attach to your schools network, and they are relatively sharp and security consicious, you will get caught. Bank on that. You'd be much better off approaching them and working something out if possible. The alternative, especially with your prior issues with data security, could be...well it's a bad idea pard.

Haha, yeah I kinda realized that after I posted. I'm asking him now, and then I'll make a decision whether to dive in.

The link to the user manual works now...here

On page 4, it says you can specifically connect to a hub/switch (which basically is are you crossing the cable or not). It also comes w/ software to configure it so it shouldn't be bad...I'll read through it tomorrow.

 

[JackMDS]

Link to manual corrected:

Linksys Wet11 Wappy.

Too late to read it today, it is 12:55 on the East Cost.

 

[rw120555]

Finally! The lack of docs was driving me crazy. Yes, you do give the WET11 an SSID, the WEP if necessary, etc. So, that part is pretty much like I thought. Alas, nothing about connecting it to a WAP, but nothing that says you can't do it either; and if it can connect to switches, PCs, printers, etc., then why not a WAP? (Unless maybe there is an interference problem.)

Basically, I think this WET11 is a smart client card with a few bells and whistles that make it more powerful than a USB client card: it internally stores the SSID and other settings. It is not limited to being connected to a PC, it can connect to any ethernet device. You could connect it to a single PC if you wanted to, but if that is all you wanted to do you could get a USB client card cheaper. The WET11 costs more because it can do more.

But, my guess is the SSID of the WAP it is cabled to must be different than the SSID across the street. Otherwise, it will connect to the stronger signal of the WAP that is right beside it, and miss the signal of the WAP across the street that you really want. Plus, that puts it in a feedback loop, whatever that does. But, since you want a different SSID anyway, this should be fine with you. Your WAP can have its own SSID, WEP settings, whatever, that are totally different from what the University uses.

If it works, this could have lots of useful applications. Periodically, there are threads about PCs that can't connect with some faraway WAP, and the answer has always been that you spend a small fortune on antennas or repeaters or whatever, or else you change directions and use HPNA or Homeplug. Instead, you can spend a small fortune ($200-$250) on a WET11-WAP combo. Whether that is the best or cheapest, I don't know. Even if it works, how strong and reliable will the signal be? I guess you'll find out, but maybe you should do a little more research on repeaters or spectacular receivers to see what they cost and how well they work.

There are also a few cryptic statements in the docs about extending range that make me wonder if the WET11 could do the job without another WAP. I'd be extremely surprised if that were true, but it wouldn't hurt to try it out first.

 

[ktwebb]

But, my guess is the SSID of the WAP it is cabled to must be different than the SSID across the street. Otherwise, it will connect to the stronger signal of the WAP that is right beside it, and miss the signal of the WAP across the street that you really want. Plus, that puts it in a feedback loop, whatever that does. But, since you want a different SSID anyway, this should be fine with you. Your WAP can have its own SSID, WEP settings, whatever, that are totally different from what the University uses.

Now I finally understand what you were trying to get at with the SSID confusion. Yes, it would associate to the AP beside it if it had the same SSID. When I was talking about multiple AP's with various SSID broadcast situations, both broadcast on and off, I had not addes the AP attached to the WGB in the scenario. WGB with SSID of the school, piggyback AP with different SSID as well as a different frequency for the client laptop or dekstop wireless card in the apartment.

If it works, this could have lots of useful applications

Not only does it work but it works very well if engineered and setup correctly. Setup similar situations many many many times. Seldom adding the additional AP but AP to WGB, the WET11 in this case, is an excellent solution for this particular situation.

There are also a few cryptic statements in the docs about extending range that make me wonder if the WET11 could do the job without another WAP

There are also a few cryptic statements in the docs about extending range that make me wonder if the WET11 could do the job without another WAP

They are talking about adding higher gain antennas for longer shots. The Workgroup bridge is a client only device in wireless terms.

 

[rw120555]

I'd like to go all wireless in the house, so I won't have to run wires floor to floor, etc. Cisco claims that they're not compatible with anyone else, so I'll probably not try that.

Incidentally, if laptops aren't involved, another solution you might want to consider would be to hook the WET11 up to an HPNA/Ethernet bridge, like the Netgear PE102, and then get Homepna cards for all your machines. It would be a lot cheaper, and could help get you into the Guinness Book of World Records for most convoluted and bizarre home network.

Or heck, just go really wild, and connect the WET11 , a WAP, an HPNA Bridge, and Homeplug Bridge to a single switch and have just about every connection method possible. Just think of the fun pleas for help you could send to AN if the internet suddenly stopped working on one of the machines.

 

[rw120555]

Not only does it work but it works very well if engineered and setup correctly. Setup similar situations many many many times. Seldom adding the additional AP but AP to WGB, the WET11 in this case, is an excellent solution for this particular situation.

Thanks ktwebb. But how does it compare to the alternatives, both in terms of cost and performance? If the signal coming to the window is great, I would think it would be fine, but if it is a weak signal to begin with (which I suspect it is) then I wonder how happy you'd be. I don't think this setup will make the initial signal you are receiving any stronger, it will just keep it from getting worse as you move further away.

The thing I find cryptic is they say

"Access points transmit data to PCs equipped with wireless network card, which can roam within a certain radial range of the access point. Multiple access points can be arranged to work in succession to extend the roaming range..." (Figure 3-1, p. 6).

The diagram makes it look like one WAP sends beams to another WAP which then sends them to a third. Hence, just based on the diagram and those few sentences, I would think, hey, there is an access point across the street, I can set up one in my apartment, and all will be great.

In reality, I think all these aps have to be connected to a wired backbone, but that isn't made clear. The diagram makes it look like they are acting as relayers to each other, but they aren't. And, why do they even bother to bring this up, given that the WET11 is a bridge and not an access point? I'm guessing it is just fuzzy writing, but I think somebody could easily be deceived by it.