recently my friend have been on this kick that we will one day have wireless power, however knowing how power works, i feel it is impossible, what do you think?
Wireless Power
- Thread starter Juice Box
- Start date
im talking something completely controlled and not which would potentially cause harm to things in the way, like wireless networks
You mean something that delivers the typical 110 or 220 Vs... If there were, youd probably get cancer real fast with those beams shooting through your body 24/7
To answer your question directly, yes it is possible to transmit energy via radio frequency electromagnetic radiation (EM). Due to the inverse square law for circular propagation and the hazards for a directional beam, it will never be possible for a power utility to use it in place of transmission lines.
What is being considered is a satellite with an enormous area of photo voltaic cells. The radiation from the sun is absorbed and converted to RF energy (like in a microwave oven). Via a directional antenna, the RF EM field is transmitted, than received by an antenna array on the earth?s surface. This RF energy will be converted at that point to 60hz and sent over standard transmission lines to your home. Living things would not survive a trip through the RF beamed from space.
A laser and the lower frequency maser also transmit EM radiation. Since the radiated beam is coherent, thereby non-divergent over relatively long distances, they may be a better choice for power transmission. Their efficiency is so poor that it is not going to happen in the near future.
What is being considered is a satellite with an enormous area of photo voltaic cells. The radiation from the sun is absorbed and converted to RF energy (like in a microwave oven). Via a directional antenna, the RF EM field is transmitted, than received by an antenna array on the earth?s surface. This RF energy will be converted at that point to 60hz and sent over standard transmission lines to your home. Living things would not survive a trip through the RF beamed from space.
A laser and the lower frequency maser also transmit EM radiation. Since the radiated beam is coherent, thereby non-divergent over relatively long distances, they may be a better choice for power transmission. Their efficiency is so poor that it is not going to happen in the near future.
PowerEngineer
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2001
- 3,598
- 774
- 136
This seems to be a recurring topic here.
By "wireless power" I presume you mean the delivery of energy via electromagnetic waves without transmission lines.
In one sense, you can say that we already have wireless power -- in that very small amounts of power are delivered to your radios and television sets through the electromagnetic waves by the radio/TV transmitters. Of course, it's the amplitude or frequency fluctuations imposed on the base wave that we really use in these applications. But it does give you something to think about; that 10,000 watt transmitter actually delivers very little power to your radio/TV. Why? Because the stength (i.e. power) of the wave decreases with the distance from the (point) source. If you make the charitable assumption that the transmitter radiates just horizontally, then that 10,000 watts travels out from the transmitter like ripples from a rock dropped in a pond. The farther out you go, the bigger the circle around which that 10,000 watts is spread. At one mile from the transmitter, the circumference of the circle will be over 33,000 feet. This means that a one foot antenna (perfectly aligned in the horizontal plane) can capture less than 1/3 of a watt!
Now the regular electrical power systems we're familiar with are also electromagnetic waves (at 60 Hz). The transmission lines (as well as the wiring in your house...or all the wires in your computer) can be thought of as wave guides that very effectively focus the waves down the length of the wire. That 10,000 watts that you start with at the generator travels down the wire with only small losses to the load connected at the other end of the wire.
It seems to me that we'll always need to use some way of focusing the power to flow from the point of production to the point of use. Allowing it to dissipate with distance is way too inefficient. Higher frequency waves (e.g. microwaves) can be focused for point-to-point transmission without wires. But at our current power system frequencies, wire wave guides can't be beat.
By "wireless power" I presume you mean the delivery of energy via electromagnetic waves without transmission lines.
In one sense, you can say that we already have wireless power -- in that very small amounts of power are delivered to your radios and television sets through the electromagnetic waves by the radio/TV transmitters. Of course, it's the amplitude or frequency fluctuations imposed on the base wave that we really use in these applications. But it does give you something to think about; that 10,000 watt transmitter actually delivers very little power to your radio/TV. Why? Because the stength (i.e. power) of the wave decreases with the distance from the (point) source. If you make the charitable assumption that the transmitter radiates just horizontally, then that 10,000 watts travels out from the transmitter like ripples from a rock dropped in a pond. The farther out you go, the bigger the circle around which that 10,000 watts is spread. At one mile from the transmitter, the circumference of the circle will be over 33,000 feet. This means that a one foot antenna (perfectly aligned in the horizontal plane) can capture less than 1/3 of a watt!
Now the regular electrical power systems we're familiar with are also electromagnetic waves (at 60 Hz). The transmission lines (as well as the wiring in your house...or all the wires in your computer) can be thought of as wave guides that very effectively focus the waves down the length of the wire. That 10,000 watts that you start with at the generator travels down the wire with only small losses to the load connected at the other end of the wire.
It seems to me that we'll always need to use some way of focusing the power to flow from the point of production to the point of use. Allowing it to dissipate with distance is way too inefficient. Higher frequency waves (e.g. microwaves) can be focused for point-to-point transmission without wires. But at our current power system frequencies, wire wave guides can't be beat.
gsellis
Diamond Member
- Dec 4, 2003
- 6,061
- 0
- 0
A powsat search was not remarkable. Guess the phrase did not catch on, but power satellite transmission was a hit. Try these:
http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/ltrs/PDF/tm4496.pdf
http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/conceptual_study_of_a_solar_power_satellite_sps_2000.shtml
Been kicked around for a long time. The rectenna on the microwave version would be big enough that the energy per square foot would not 'cook' anything in its path.
http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/ltrs/PDF/tm4496.pdf
http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/conceptual_study_of_a_solar_power_satellite_sps_2000.shtml
Been kicked around for a long time. The rectenna on the microwave version would be big enough that the energy per square foot would not 'cook' anything in its path.
Cogman
Lifer
- Sep 19, 2000
- 10,284
- 138
- 106
really, saying wireless is a bad term, Tesla's invetions where wireless and with a bit of refining probibly could be controled fairly safly, being no diffrent then climbing up a high voltage line and grabbing a couple of them. The Microwave idea is also wire less. Again Wireless is a bad term for what your trying to describe. Maybe Remote electricity would be a better phrasing, though mwaves do still kindof fall under it, But anyways a technology that would allow you to pick up any electrical device, turn it on, and never worry about batteries. Well unfortunatly your friend is sadly mistaken, I doubt that will happen in the near future. Sure the technology will probibly come, but the application will be far and few and vastly unaccepted.
Why am I so negitive about it? Electricity is not free, and remote electricity would almost impossible to monitor. Sure it may come, But I do doubt that it will be accepted because it will probibly be installed for single buildings. Imagine the horror of looking at an electrical bill and finding out that your neighbor had been using large amounts of your electricity giving you a huge bill.
Nope, before it can be vastly accepted, Electricity needs to be nearly free, I mean like $.01 per every TerraWatt hour. And for it to be that cheep we need to build more effective power plants. Many fission plants would work very well and I would not be oppossed if the US where recieving 90% of its power from them, but sadly nuclear plants are vastly limited and the US currently only recieves 20% of its power from them. Very sad considering how fuel efficiant they are.
Really think about it, 1 bar of Uranium can power a plant for a couple of days and produce more power then Several Coal plants, And at the same time Those coal plants are using several tons of coal.
[/rant]
Why am I so negitive about it? Electricity is not free, and remote electricity would almost impossible to monitor. Sure it may come, But I do doubt that it will be accepted because it will probibly be installed for single buildings. Imagine the horror of looking at an electrical bill and finding out that your neighbor had been using large amounts of your electricity giving you a huge bill.
Nope, before it can be vastly accepted, Electricity needs to be nearly free, I mean like $.01 per every TerraWatt hour. And for it to be that cheep we need to build more effective power plants. Many fission plants would work very well and I would not be oppossed if the US where recieving 90% of its power from them, but sadly nuclear plants are vastly limited and the US currently only recieves 20% of its power from them. Very sad considering how fuel efficiant they are.
Really think about it, 1 bar of Uranium can power a plant for a couple of days and produce more power then Several Coal plants, And at the same time Those coal plants are using several tons of coal.
[/rant]
Electricity will one day be free, my friend. It is inevitable. We're talking way into the future. After we free ourselves completely from fossil fuels and move onto low-maintmance perpetually renewable forms of power generation.
Fusion is a good example of an near-ideal power source. It has already been accomplished (very recently i believe), but at extremely low-efficiancy. We're talking so low that it used FAR, FAR more electricity to power the magnet system than it generated. Once fusion is perfected, there is little reason power wouldnt be provided for free by governments.
As far as energy though air, high school physics covers using waves to 'move' electrons in a remote wire. Of course everyone else has already let you in on the secret of Radio.
Fusion is a good example of an near-ideal power source. It has already been accomplished (very recently i believe), but at extremely low-efficiancy. We're talking so low that it used FAR, FAR more electricity to power the magnet system than it generated. Once fusion is perfected, there is little reason power wouldnt be provided for free by governments.
As far as energy though air, high school physics covers using waves to 'move' electrons in a remote wire. Of course everyone else has already let you in on the secret of Radio.
do any of you have any good detailed resources for information on tesla and cold electricity. i kno its a little off topic but i have been interested in his work and have not been able to find much on how it works or experiments with it.
Originally posted by: Runamile
DUH! I learned that one playing SimCity. We'll all have that one in about 2020!
You stole my joke... *weep* :brokenheart:
I refuse to believe that you cant find any information on Tesla. His work is widely popular and taugh in public schools around the world. Google search for 'Tesla theories'.
As for Fusion, i have a few links. The basic theories are very simple: There is an energy release when atomic nuclei are fused. It is not difficult to fuse sub-atomic particles at extreme temperatures. The sun is a perfect example of a large fusion power plant. Cold fusion on the other hand is, in theory, safe enough to preform in a house or a car. Here are some articles:
What If Cold Fusion Is Real?
The Cold Fusion Times
Cold Fusion Research: A Report of the Energy Research Advisory Board to the United States Department of Energy - 11/1999
UCLA Attempt to Replicate the CETI Cold Fusion Experiment
United States National Renewable Energy Lab (NREL)
A Page of Cold Fusion Links
In case you truly cant find data on Nicola Tesla.... Nicola Tesla - Master Of Lightning (PBS Website)
i meant information on teslas work on cold electricity not on him himself or cold fusion. cold electricity has to do with radiant energy which he had several patients on.
Fusion is not generally expected to be a cheap technology. Somewhat higher cost than current energy costs, if successful, is the expectation in the medium term. There are hardware costs of all forms of power, and such hardware will be produced only if expected revenue justifies it. No more reason to expect governments to provide this free than to expect them to pay for oil for free. Providing fuel for free is inefficient because:
1. It is a government expense and so requires higher taxes detrimental to the economy.
2. Demand will become very high, much higher than the economically efficient level.
Tesla proposed a wireless power scheme using a giant high-frequency transformer (a Tesla coil) tuned to resonate with the Earth. That is, tuned to create a standing-wave electrical oscillation on the Earth. Then similarly tuned coils could extract power.
He claimed to have demonstrated this in a laboratory in Colorado Springs in 1899, and he got a lot of money to build a 200 foot coil on Long Island. Eventually his funding dried up and he went bankrupt.
Tesla followers range from sensible admirers to extremely looney people, so beware of what you find on Google. I've read most of the books on him and his notebooks. He knew more EE than most "inventors", but his idea of wireless power was probably a total crock. Just like radio or microwave schemes, you would just lose all your energy by dissipation.
He claimed to have demonstrated this in a laboratory in Colorado Springs in 1899, and he got a lot of money to build a 200 foot coil on Long Island. Eventually his funding dried up and he went bankrupt.
Tesla followers range from sensible admirers to extremely looney people, so beware of what you find on Google. I've read most of the books on him and his notebooks. He knew more EE than most "inventors", but his idea of wireless power was probably a total crock. Just like radio or microwave schemes, you would just lose all your energy by dissipation.
And by the way, fusion is pretty dirty. Deuterium + deuterium fusion can go one of two ways: Helium3 + a neutron, or Tritium + Protium. The intense neutron flux in a fusion reactor is a problem, it tends to make the whole device radioactive and causes weird materials failures (metals crumble and blister, etc). And radioactive tritium is also not something you would just pour down the drain, but you could feed it back into the fusion reactor. Oh man, will that baby be radioactive after a while though!
There are some new ideas about Thorium reactors that are interesting. There's a lot of Thorium in the ground, and its fissionable, but its much harder to build a reactor with it. The good news is that you cannot get a run-away explosive reaction with Thorium, so its safer in that regard.
There are some new ideas about Thorium reactors that are interesting. There's a lot of Thorium in the ground, and its fissionable, but its much harder to build a reactor with it. The good news is that you cannot get a run-away explosive reaction with Thorium, so its safer in that regard.
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