Wireless N routers and cards are worth the money...

[CocoGdog]

I just upgraded from the Netgear MIMO G to a D-Link N Router. I already have a Linksys N Wireless card. The speeds and reliability are awesome so far. I don't know why I didn't do it sooner - maybe the price has gotten so low that it's worth it now.

 

[JackMDS]

And your question is?

 

[CocoGdog]

Not really a question, but a rant. Just had to rant about something today. My Netgear dropped off so many times and it was premium back in the day. My question would be, why do people put up with wireless gear that are difficult to troubleshoot...?

 

[JackMDS]

This is a much broader issue. Since Wireless depends on many factors, many time the report of one user does not n3eccesaarly benefit another users sine the reports are usually very superficial.

An example I have no clue about the environmental condition the Wireless is under. I do not know what it the make of the rest of your network how it configured and for what specifically it is used.

I can vision a lot of scenarios that the same hardware that you use might not yield the same result.

 

[BoboKatt]

I can definitely agree with what you say about N... or maybe it's more with the wireless technology now having gotten more mature in general -- not sure. I have 3 wireless routers from years ago sitting in my basement with various problems which have served me well as well.

It took me soooo long to finally understand everything I could about it - trying different NICs, different routers, different antennas etc. Troubleshooting wireless connection is such a picky thing -- however once you isolate the problem or understand how to isolate and eliminate aspects of it to know what to fix/address, things do get smoother.

The D-Link N 635 router I have now works flawlessly and has pretty much from day one.

My father got one for his place and had nothing but issues, but it turned out it was not properly set up. Messing around with some of the options caused nothing but headaches.

 

[JackMDS]

The issue with Draft-N not working.

The issue is that to most users it does Not provide any advantage, it is expensive, and it is Draft.

As far as Wireless range goes, some MIMO 802.11g Routers with regular 802.11g cards (Draft-N cards cost 3 times more) provide similar range.

The only reason to spend money on N is One really need a little extra local functional wireless transfer (does not apply to Internet transfer) regardless of cost.

Or if One thinks that it makes him look Cool when he says: ". "Hey Dude/Bro I use N".

 

[Griffinhart]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
The issue with Draft-N not working.

The issue is that to most users it does Not provide any advantage, it is expensive, and it is Draft.

I do agree that most users would not see an advantage since most users are simply one or two PC's on internet connections far lower than what their router can handle.

As far as Wireless range goes, some MIMO 802.11g Routers with regular 802.11g cards (Draft-N cards cost 3 times more) provide similar range.

11g adapters are pretty cheap online. obscure brands start for around $15 while obscure brands of Draft N start for $30. Brand names like linksys are running $40 for 11g and $65 for 11n. Not quite the three times more expensive mark.

The only reason to spend money on N is One really need a little extra local functional wireless transfer (does not apply to Internet transfer) regardless of cost.

Well, I wouldn't call the difference between N and G "a little extra local functional wireless transfer." the difference is significant. Real world differences are averaging 15Mbps vs 150Mbps over a wireless network. I would call a ten fold local network speed increase a pretty big boost.

It's also worth mentioning that the "does not apply to Internet transfer" is beginning to become a little less true. While that applies to a typical 6 to 8Mpbs cable connection, anyone running greater than 15Mpbs or greater through newer services like FIOS and some the upcoming DOCSIS 3 stuff It does and will most certainly apply.

As I said, 11n isn't needed by everyone but there are a lot of benefits and the reasons to use it will only continue to increase.

 

[JackMDS]

I do not buy something because someone else can make use of it, but because I can make use of it.

So the idea is to give true info and let people make up their own decision (Marketing claims are Not true info).

There is No point to buy Draft_N if your Wireless use of Internet connection is Not a must to be above 12-20 Mb/sec. (over 95% of consumers do not have Internet connection that provides above 10Mb/sec.)

In addition there is No point to buy expensive because in the future it might be needed. The future of Computer Hardware is very short and even more dubious for Draft.

While some obscure 802.11g cards (like the $22 Edimax) are actually better than the expensive Brand names. Obscure Draft-N are not. ($22 to $65 is about Three times).

Functional 150M/sec.??? I do not know where you took this number from, the Average "Speed" of consumer Draft-N is about 48Mb/sec. (Which is slight above SuperG).

One of the reasons that the 802.11n standard is not passing through is the fact that people buying the draft. At the speed people would spend twice the money in a span of few years buying this hardware which make the vendors smile.

Functional 150M/sec.?? I do not know where you took this number from the Average "Speed" of consumer Draft-N is about 48Mb/sec. (Which is slight above SuperG).

However I know that it is very important to be Cool so whatever makes One feel Cool is Good, but Cool and factual technology pricing seems Not be in cohootz.

 

[spidey07]

True that, the more people buy this stuff the longer the standard is going to take as manufacturers have a vested interest in either delaying or strongly pushing the wrong direction because they already have product on the market.

 

[Griffinhart]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
I do not buy something because someone else can make use of it, but because I can make use of it.

So the idea is to give true info and let people make up their own decision (Marketing claims are Not true info).

I specifically said that I agreed that for a lot of people 11g is good enough. The rest was to clarify and correct some misconceptions for the purpose of providing a clearer picture of the facts. And some of the information you provided was incorrect. Nothing I wrote was marketing.

There is No point to buy Draft_N if your Wireless use of Internet connection is Not a must to be above 12-20 Mb/sec. (over 95% of consumers do not have Internet connection that provides above 10Mb/sec.)

Never did I say it was a must and I specifically said that the speed limitations of 11g would be an issue on connections of 15Mbps and higher. To argue that 11g will not bottleneck a higher internet speed is just incorrect. Again, I even reiterated that it is not a problem for the typical internet connection speed. I merely stated that it is a consideration if you are running the higher speed connections.

In addition there is No point to buy expensive because in the future it might be needed. The future of Computer Hardware is very short and even more dubious for Draft.

How is draft N any more dubious than the 11g MIMO routers you recommend all the time? They aren't even a standard.

While some obscure 802.11g cards (like the $22 Edimax) are actually better than the expensive Brand names. Obscure Draft-N are not. ($22 to $65 is about Three times).

That is a matter of opinion. I have tried a number of less expensive brand wireless products and my experiences have always moved me away from them. But sure, I'll give you that if you compare el-cheapo brand card to mainstream accepted card, you will save that much, but in general my point does stand.

Functional 150M/sec.??? I do not know where you took this number from, the Average "Speed" of consumer Draft-N is about 48Mb/sec. (Which is slight above SuperG).

Yes, functional. I get that speed on my home network on a daily basis. My router is on the first floor of my house and my office is on the second floor. I typically get between 140Mbps and 170Mpbs when transferring files from my media center to/from my desktop. Especially large video files. I can't say what other people get, but I most certainly do get that kind of speed.

One of the reasons that the 802.11n standard is not passing through is the fact that people buying the draft. At the speed people would spend twice the money in a span of few years buying this hardware which make the vendors smile.

Really? It has nothing to do with it being a commity decision? 11n is due to be finished next year. That will be 6 years after 11g was finished. 11g was finished 5 years after a/b.
For wired, IEEE took 5 years to go from thin coax to 10baseT. Another 5 years to go to 100baseT and another 4 years to go to Gigabit. 6 years, given FCC regulations, seems hardly out of the normal for IEEE. Certainly not enough to make conspiratorial claims about it.

However I know that it is very important to be Cool so whatever makes One feel Cool is Good, but Cool and factual technology pricing seems Not be in cohootz.

The current data and facts don't seem to agree with you.

I wanted to add. I don't personally recommend 11n to everyone I know. I go by what a persons requirements are. For me, 11n is the only way for my uses and the benefits are clearly demonstrable.

For several friends, they have asked me a number of times about it. One friend only uses his network to access the internet. He doesn't share files over his network at all. I have never once recommended anything higher than 11g for him since there is no call for it given his requirements.

Another friend is constantly considering an 11n router, but I always tell him the same thing. In his case, his two desktops and printer are hard wired to his network and his wife's laptop connects through wireless but never uses network shares. I tell him the same thing. There is no reason to spend money on it since he will not see any benefits.

 

[JackMDS]

Let me make sure that I understand correctly.

150Mb/sec. means maintaining fie transfer of about 18MB/sec. (B=Byte)

I.e., it takes 10 sec. to your Network to transfer a 180MB between your Wireless N computers, or between a Wireless computer and a Giga LAN computer. ????

Or you are reporting the "Speed? that it reported by the connection?s menu rather than measuring real transfer.

FYI. The connection ?s menu report is a static report that Windows takes from the Drivers table and has nothing to do with real time file transfer.

 

[Griffinhart]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
Let me make sure that I understand correctly.

150Mb/sec. means maintaining fie transfer of about 18MB/sec. (B=Byte)

Correct. I average between 140Mbps and 170Mpbs. Usually closer to 140.

I.e., it takes 10 sec. to your Network to transfer a 180MB between your Wireless N computers, or between a Wireless computer and a Giga LAN computer. ????

correct, I just copied a 223MB video file in about 15 seconds.

The Media Center is on a Giga LAN port. You are correct that if the Media center were wireless as well that the speed would be significantly lower, but on 11g that would be the same case. (See the test I did below)

Or you are reporting the "Speed? that it reported by the connection?s menu rather than measuring real transfer.

FYI. The connection ?s menu report is a static report that Windows takes from the Drivers table and has nothing to do with real time file transfer.

Please, give me some credit here. Of course I am not using that figure. That reads 300Mbps. I'm talking about the actual transfer speeds.

Now, my laptop uses a different brand 11n board and the Antenna on my desktop is MUCH better. The laptop seems to get about 100Mbps when transferring the same files. When I copy files from desktop to laptop (wireless to wireless) I average 40Mbps. A significant drop off to be sure, but under 11g wireless to wireless would probably dip down to 8Mbps if I were lucky.

I did a little more testing and took my Laptop outside. Speed did drop, as it would, to 45Mbps on the same transfers from the Media Center. But that's still three to four times faster than 11g would be if I were in the same room as the router.

For Equipment I use:
D-Link DIR-655 Router.
My desktop (Vista 64 Ultimate) has a Linksys WMP300 Wireless N adapter.
My laptop (Vista 32 Business) uses the D-Link DWA-652 Notebook adapter.
My Media Center (Vista 64 Ultimate) is wired to the D-link router using a Linksys Gigabit Adapter.

Though it shouldn't have affected transfer speed in any notable way, These tests were run while streaming Live TV from my Media Center to my XBOX 360 on my 11a network which is bridged through a Linksys A/G router attached to the D-Link router.

 

[rickeo]

If you're really getting ~140Mbps on you're wireless network then, well, damn. Im struggling with 25Mbps on my G network. Granted thats between one floor, and across the house.

 

[Griffinhart]

Originally posted by: rickeo
If you're really getting ~140Mbps on you're wireless network then, well, damn. Im struggling with 25Mbps on my G network. Granted thats between one floor, and across the house.

If you are getting 25Mbps on 11g you are doing extremely well. 🙂

My old 11g network averaged only about 15Mbps.

 

[JackMDS]

Originally posted by: rickeo
If you're really getting ~140Mbps on you're wireless network then, well, damn. Im struggling with 25Mbps on my G network. Granted thats between one floor, and across the house.

According to the few available credible reviews of the DI-655, at close proximity, it provides 45 to 50 Mb/sec.

 

[kevnich2]

Originally posted by: JackMDS

Originally posted by: rickeo
If you're really getting ~140Mbps on you're wireless network then, well, damn. Im struggling with 25Mbps on my G network. Granted thats between one floor, and across the house.

According to the few available credible reviews of the DI-655, at close proximity, it provides 45 to 50 Mb/sec.

I concur, I've tested two of them so far and the top speed I received was 50mb and typical speeds over a week period was 35-40mb, at close proximity. I don't honestly see how someone could get 140mb on it, but that's just based on what I saw.

 

[spidey07]

C'mon guys, you know that wireless depends on so many factors that it's impossible to make absolute statements.

 

[rickeo]

So whats your "un"-absolute statement spidey, off the record?

FWIW, smallnetbuilder.com's charts show the Apple Airport Extreme having the fastest average AND max downstream throughput of any wireless router they have tested, and that is in single AND dual band. The MAX they saw was 133Mbps, so now that I have done some more research, im pulling the BS flag....

The DIR-655 came in second to the AAE with a MAX downlink throuput of 75Mbps, and that was in the same room 10 feet apart with perfect LOS.

I BS you not> DIR-655 Wireless Performance

 

[Griffinhart]

Frankly, I don't care if I'm believed or not. I know what I am getting. My desktop does get those numbers. My laptop gets lower, about 100Mbps. I don't have to do the research on articles and reviews. I just have to copy the files. I have nothing to gain by lying about it. I am always copying large files from my Media Center to my desktop and I see what I am getting for speeds on a daily basis.

I have no illusions that everyone will get those kind of speeds it is based on a number of factors. Distance, what's between the client and router, antenna, what hardware is being used...

I can't help but wonder if those tests on reviewers web sites were testing Wireless PC to Wireless PC though. I don't drop down to 45 to 50 unless I copy from my desktop to my laptop which are both wireless.

Originally, my media center was attached through an internal 10/100 ethernet adapter. When I ran in that configuration I averaged around 8 or 9 MB. But, I had a hard drive failure a little while ago. While I was inside the case I added a Gigabit Ethernet board and then I started seeing the increases.

 

[Griffinhart]

Originally posted by: rickeo
So whats your "un"-absolute statement spidey, off the record?

FWIW, smallnetbuilder.com's charts show the Apple Airport Extreme having the fastest average AND max downstream throughput of any wireless router they have tested, and that is in single AND dual band. The MAX they saw was 133Mbps, so now that I have done some more research, im pulling the BS flag....

The DIR-655 came in second to the AAE with a MAX downlink throuput of 75Mbps, and that was in the same room 10 feet apart with perfect LOS.

I BS you not> DIR-655 Wireless Performance

I'd like to point out, Rickeo, that you yourself are telling us that you get 25Mbps on your wireless G network even though it's on a different floor and across the house. Those same charts indicate that 11g throughput is closer to 14 to 18 with perfect LOS. Is that BS too?

 

[Stump1000]

Back on topic, I'll add a few things to this.

I had an all 11.G network and wanted something faster, as I was only able to get about 1mb/s actual transfer.

I went to my local circuit city, I bought a Netgear N Router, a Netgear pcmia laptop card and a Netgear PCI card for the desktop. My speeds peaked higher, 3mb/s at times. The actual transfers took longer because it would speed up and then the connection would completely stop for a few seconds, then take off again. My G hasnt ever done that.

So I returned all the stuff, went to walmart and got all Linksys stuff. It was about the same speed as my G network was. I put my router beside my desktop and done some test that way so it would be wired. The network still only topped at 3mb/s transfer with the laptop sitting right beside the router. From my experience, N isn't worth it.

 

[Griffinhart]

Originally posted by: Stump1000
Back on topic, I'll add a few things to this.

I had an all 11.G network and wanted something faster, as I was only able to get about 1mb/s actual transfer.

I went to my local circuit city, I bought a Netgear N Router, a Netgear pcmia laptop card and a Netgear PCI card for the desktop. My speeds peaked higher, 3mb/s at times. The actual transfers took longer because it would speed up and then the connection would completely stop for a few seconds, then take off again. My G hasnt ever done that.

So I returned all the stuff, went to walmart and got all Linksys stuff. It was about the same speed as my G network was. I put my router beside my desktop and done some test that way so it would be wired. The network still only topped at 3mb/s transfer with the laptop sitting right beside the router. From my experience, N isn't worth it.

You have some serious RF noise problems to get speeds that low. Even for 11g your speed is much lower than it should be.

I still have one PC in the house connecting to my WRT55AG router and I average about 2.9MBps on that machine and it's further away from the router than any other PC in the house. (Second Floor and otherside of the house)

Average copy time for a 4.2GB file on the WRT55AG router is 22 to 25 minutes. Average copy time over the DIR-655 for me is just over 5 minutes. How is that not worth it?

 

[Stump1000]

Originally posted by: Griffinhart

Originally posted by: Stump1000
Back on topic, I'll add a few things to this.

I had an all 11.G network and wanted something faster, as I was only able to get about 1mb/s actual transfer.

I went to my local circuit city, I bought a Netgear N Router, a Netgear pcmia laptop card and a Netgear PCI card for the desktop. My speeds peaked higher, 3mb/s at times. The actual transfers took longer because it would speed up and then the connection would completely stop for a few seconds, then take off again. My G hasnt ever done that.

So I returned all the stuff, went to walmart and got all Linksys stuff. It was about the same speed as my G network was. I put my router beside my desktop and done some test that way so it would be wired. The network still only topped at 3mb/s transfer with the laptop sitting right beside the router. From my experience, N isn't worth it.

You have some serious RF noise problems to get speeds that low. Even for 11g your speed is much lower than it should be.

I still have one PC in the house connecting to my WRT55AG router and I average about 2.9MBps on that machine and it's further away from the router than any other PC in the house. (Second Floor and otherside of the house)

Average copy time for a 4.2GB file on the WRT55AG router is 22 to 25 minutes. Average copy time over the DIR-655 for me is just over 5 minutes. How is that not worth it?

That would be worth it, but I'm just saying it didnt happen for me. What can I do about RF noise and is there any way to check for it? I dont think theres any other networks around here.

 

[JackMDS]

Originally posted by: Stump1000I'm just saying it didnt happen for me. What can I do about RF noise and is there any way to check for it? I dont think theres any other networks around here.

To put it in perspective (and many of you knows how much time I spend on these issues) as far as I know, right now it only happened to the very Lucky Mr. Griffinhart 🙂

 

[Griffinhart]

Honestly, I have no idea why I have good luck on it. It could be a number of things I guess. But, I live in a typical suburban neighborhood. My town is pretty populated, 45,000 residents, 30 miles north of Boston.

But, there aren't any wireless networks in range of my PC other than my own. Though, when weather conditions are just right I do see two or three more.

The ironic part is, cell phone reception in my house is absolutely terrible. To get anything more than 1 bar I need to stand out in the driveway.