Windows: who designed this piece of crap?

[ZippyDan]

Situation 1:

You install Windows 7 or 8, and your computer's BIOS is in IDE mode. If you later realize: whoops I forgot to switch to AHCI mode, your Windows won't boot. You can switch back to IDE, boot into Windows and do some tweaking to get Windows to load the AHCI drivers, but it is a hassle.

Fine, whatever, I can sort of empathize with this design decision, but I don't understand why Windows can't attempt to load AHCI drivers on the fly instead of just crashing and burning. If I can do a convoluted registry edit to fix it, why can't Windows just do it?

Even more frustrating, not even the Automatic Startup Repair is smart enough to attempt this seemingly obvious fix.

Anyway, I've done this enough times to have learned my lesson: always check to make sure the BIOS has SATA in AHCI mode BEFORE installing Windows so that it will load AHCI drivers during setup.

Situation 2: Pure idiocy

I installed Windows 8.1 Pro and all the latest Windows Updates on an Intel motherboard. I made sure the motherboard was in AHCI mode from the beginning and everything was peachy. I decided to check the BIOS version after install and realized there was an update. I updated the BIOS and left the computer unattended for about 5 minutes. When I came back, the computer had already rebooted and was back in Windows. I decided to reboot and check what new settings might be in the BIOS.

AWESOME NEW SETTING: the BIOS had defaulted back to IDE SATA mode.

I changed it back to AHCI and saved some other little changes and went back to Windows ...

It won't boot. It crashes. It crashes twice and then goes to Automatic Startup Repair which does absolutely nothing.

This is not the first time this has happened to me. I have seen this behavior before where ONE BOOT to IDE mode will kill an AHCI install. But it is the first time it snuck up on me because of a BIOS update.

Again, I can sort of understand that, if you start with IDE mode and then try to go to AHCI you are going to have some issues. BUT IF I START WITH AHCI MODE I SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER HAVE TROUBLE GOING BACK TO AHCI MODE.

Explain this stupidity. Windows was installed with AHCI drivers. It boots ONCE in IDE mode and decides to throw away its AHCI drivers, lock them in an iron casket, dump them into the deepest ocean trench, and then nuke the trench. WHY CAN'T WINDOWS GO BACK TO AHCI MODE WHEN IT WAS INSTALLED IN AHCI MODE?

 

[el-Capitan]

Can you say for certain that the IDE setting is to blame? Did the BIOS update reset any other settings? IS this reproducible, have others reported this? Shouldnt Windows have refused the boot in IDE mode in the first place?

 

[ZippyDan]

Can you say for certain that the IDE setting is to blame? Did the BIOS update reset any other settings? IS this reproducible, have others reported this? Shouldnt Windows have refused the boot in IDE mode in the first place?

I've been doing updates of several of our offices. In the past 6 months I have probably installed Windows 8.1 on about 50 or 60 computers, of all different ages, makes, processors (AMD and Intel), and motherboards. It is definitely reproducible in that I guarantee you if you install a fresh retail copy of Windows 7 or 8 or 8.1 on ANY machine in IDE mode and then change to AHCI, it will not boot.

I have less experience with doing AHCI to IDE and then back to AHCI but it has also happened to me a few times so I'd say also easily reproducible.

And of course, I'm certain. I had set all the BIOS settings before the update, the IDE change was the only one that mattered. If I changed it back to AHCI, the system doesn't boot, if I change it back to IDE again, it boots fine. You can also google "Windows IDE AHCI driver boot" and find tons of other people with the same experience.

 

[MountainKing]

I guarantee you if you install a fresh retail copy of Windows 7 or 8 or 8.1 on ANY machine in IDE mode and then change to AHCI, it will not boot.

I had this happen to me on my personal PC. I don't remember if it was the other way round though but this did happen to me.
I ended up reinstalling Windows.

 

[el-Capitan]

I tried on my main (see sig.). It BSODs when switching to IDE. Now I'm back on AHCI.

There is a solution posted here : http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1634729/boot-switching-driver-ahci-windows.html . Have you tried that, or is this just a rant?

 

[John Connor]

Every time I have updated my BIOS it reverts to default settings. That's not a damn Windows problem. Although Windows 8 is a pile of crap so there you go.

Your posting in the wrong forum BTW.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Speaking of windows stupidities, I noticed modern versions of windows do this that other versions never did:

You boot off the CD and start the install, then half way through the install process it wants to load drivers for the cdrom drive! WTF? I BOOTED OFF THE CDROM DRIVE! Silly Windows.

Have not played with Windows in a while though so not sure if this is something fixed in later versions like 8 or 10.

 

[mikeymikec]

I would prefer a bit more faff for things like switching IDE/AHCI in exchange for Windows becoming leaner/faster. It's not as if it's something you would expect the average user needs to be able to do.

As long as it still is possible to switch from IDE to AHCI (which it is, on standard drivers simply set pciide and msahci services to manual start - 3), with relative ease for someone who knows how to do it, I'm fine with it.

 

[probedb2]

You boot off the CD and start the install, then half way through the install process it wants to load drivers for the cdrom drive! WTF? I BOOTED OFF THE CDROM DRIVE! Silly Windows.

Really? In all my years installing 98, XP, 2000, NT and finally 7, I've never, ever seen this.

 

[Ketchup]

ZippyDan, while I like how easy it has become to update a BIOS, I think they have made it a little TOO easy. ANY time you want to update a BIOS, you want to go into the BIOS and cofirm settings. I would NEVER just leave a computer while the BIOS is being updated. In the old days, after updating you would save default options, then after the reboot you would go in an select your personal options. This is an important process for a computer. If you can't spare five minutes of your life to stay through the process, then don't update it.

 

[mikeymikec]

Yup, I always double-check BIOS options after a BIOS update, something almost always gets reset to a default in the process, and it's usually something irritating like disabling fan management or switching to IDE mode.

 

[Berryracer]

In my experience, simply changing from IDE mode to AHCI mode and doing that registry trick DOES NOT yield the same performance as opposed to a clean AHCI installation. If someone wants to switch to AHCI mode either from IDE or RAID, I'd just format their computer.

I hear you about this, small stupid driver, yet would require a full format wasting a day's work just to change the SATA operation mode. So much for advancement in technology. That's Micro$haft for you......

 

[mikeymikec]

In my experience, simply changing from IDE mode to AHCI mode and doing that registry trick DOES NOT yield the same performance as opposed to a clean AHCI installation.

How did you measure the difference in performance?

 

[imagoon]

It's fairly simple. Some one similar to ZippyDan was complaining about boot times. So much so that MS team decided to start disabling drivers in the boot chain because each driver added 50 to 500ms to the boot time and when you have 250 of them to run through, it adds to the boot time.

Odds are that since less than 1% of the computer users in the world now even know what a BIOS is let alone what settings to change, and even less of them will ever update the BIOS, they were hedging their bets. The result was the couple of second boot times that so many people on the forum covet.

 

[Cerb]

I installed Windows 8.1 Pro and all the latest Windows Updates on an Intel motherboard. I made sure the motherboard was in AHCI mode from the beginning and everything was peachy. I decided to check the BIOS version after install and realized there was an update. I updated the BIOS and left the computer unattended for about 5 minutes. When I came back, the computer had already rebooted and was back in Windows. I decided to reboot and check what new settings might be in the BIOS.

AWESOME NEW SETTING: the BIOS had defaulted back to IDE SATA mode.

I changed it back to AHCI and saved some other little changes and went back to Windows ...

It won't boot. It crashes. It crashes twice and then goes to Automatic Startup Repair which does absolutely nothing.

This is not the first time this has happened to me. I have seen this behavior before where ONE BOOT to IDE mode will kill an AHCI install. But it is the first time it snuck up on me because of a BIOS update.

Must be an 8.x feature. Over the years, I've had to change SATA modes around for dealing with dodgy HDDs, and never had Windows 7 do that, ever.

 

[Cerb]

It's fairly simple. Some one similar to ZippyDan was complaining about boot times. So much so that MS team decided to start disabling drivers in the boot chain because each driver added 50 to 500ms to the boot time and when you have 250 of them to run through, it adds to the boot time.

Odds are that since less than 1% of the computer users in the world now even know what a BIOS is let alone what settings to change, and even less of them will ever update the BIOS, they were hedging their bets. The result was the couple of second boot times that so many people on the forum covet.

Also, the F8 menu catch-22 (and no, you can't enable it, because by the time you can physically access the PC, it won't boot up).

 

[Cerb]

Really? In all my years installing 98, XP, 2000, NT and finally 7, I've never, ever seen this.

I've seen it quite a few times with 7 and 8. LG drives have had compatibility issues for years, now, and then other random samplings of drives have had EUFI issues, where it can boot, but then when it reloads the driver, it fails to read the ODD.

 

[Berryracer]

How did you measure the difference in performance?

using AS SSD Benchnark m8, it wasn't the same as the scores in AHCI mode installed from the beginning. I don't have those results though

 

[Elixer]

For business machines, unless it is a critical BIOS update, I always follow the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra.

 

[probedb2]

I've seen it quite a few times with 7 and 8. LG drives have had compatibility issues for years, now, and then other random samplings of drives have had EUFI issues, where it can boot, but then when it reloads the driver, it fails to read the ODD.

Strange. I've never heard of it ever, that's from lots of IT friends and anyone in IT depts where they do this regularly where I work, not once.

 

[Cerb]

I had it happen with a <1yr-old Dell Inspiron AIO just weeks ago.

 

[mikeymikec]

using AS SSD Benchnark m8, it wasn't the same as the scores in AHCI mode installed from the beginning. I don't have those results though

I think if you're looking for 'the same' results in SSD benchmarks, you may be in for some disappointment.

Here's a comparison of two benchmarks I ran on my system. The first reading was shortly after I did a clean AHCI install, Win7 64 SP1 on my system. The second reading was on the same hardware and driver configuration six months later. The first reading wasn't the result of some quirky blip either, I had been comparing different driver versions and benchmarking in between, and I considered my approach to be fairly careful (e.g. ensuring that the system was completely idle before running the benchmarks). The second reading is on a fuller drive as well (Samsung 840 PRO 256GB):

Look at the readings at the low end, and consider that a difference of 5MB/sec is the same sort of difference one can expect between say a new WD Black and a SG 7200.10. Also look at the high end, the benchmark from Feb is slightly better there than the October one. In terms of wanting a more responsive system, I'd take the faster low-end readings every time. My only explanation is that perhaps the SSD was in a better state in terms of TRIM/GC six months later, and I wonder the same was probably true in your computer's case. There's simply no reason why an SSD wouldn't perform (in real terms) as well simply because you swapped drivers as opposed to a clean install. If you followed that logic to its conclusion, you'd wipe your system every time you did a driver update. Considering the lack of justification for the logic, you may as well go one further and say every time an app update comes in, you'd better wipe your system and start afresh with the updated version of the app.

When I'm building or installing new boot disks in systems, once the configuration is complete I do a benchmark to make sure that the disk is performing approximately as I'd expect it to.

 

[ZippyDan]

Every time I have updated my BIOS it reverts to default settings. That's not a damn Windows problem. Although Windows 8 is a pile of crap so there you go.

Actually, I find that Windows 8 is superior to Windows 7 in almost every way, except for the user interface, specifically in terms of

1. Lack of Start menu
2. Stupid full-screen apps

I solve both problems by installing Stardock's Start8 and ModernMix and Windows 8 becomes a much better OS.

Also, I was not complaining about the BIOS reverting to defaults. I was complaining about Window's lack of ability to change from IDE to AHCI mode and back in an easy way. That said, I wasn't expecting or thinking that the default for the BIOS would be IDE. Finally, not all BIOS updates revert to defaults.

I tried on my main (see sig.). It BSODs when switching to IDE. Now I'm back on AHCI.

You did a full boot in IDE mode, it crashed, and you changed back to AHCI mode without having to do anything? Well, I have had the opposite experience on several machines, but I can't claim that every install will be exactly the same.

There is a solution posted here : http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1634729/boot-switching-driver-ahci-windows.html . Have you tried that, or is this just a rant?

Yes, I saw that solution all over the web, and have tried it before. Even Microsoft supplies the solution: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922976 It seems it works for some people, but it did not work for me. And I'm not the only one.

As long as it still is possible to switch from IDE to AHCI (which it is, on standard drivers simply set pciide and msahci services to manual start - 3), with relative ease for someone who knows how to do it, I'm fine with it.

Yea this did not work for me.

ANY time you want to update a BIOS, you want to go into the BIOS and cofirm settings. I would NEVER just leave a computer while the BIOS is being updated. In the old days, after updating you would save default options, then after the reboot you would go in an select your personal options. This is an important process for a computer. If you can't spare five minutes of your life to stay through the process, then don't update it.

I appreciate your patronization. I've been updating BIOS for 25 years? I know I should always check the BIOS on a new computer and on a BIOS update. Let me address your comment in several points:

1. Not all BIOS updates revert to defaults
2. Many BIOS updates pause and provide a prompt before rebooting
3. I was working on multiple machines at the same time
4. Most importantly, more than anything else, in the history of BIOS updates I cannot think of any BIOS setting change that would "permanently" render the computer inoperable. If you have an incorrect BIOS setting, your computer might crash or hang, sure, but all you normally have to do is change that setting to whatever it should be and you are back in business. To me, this is clearly a Windows deficiency and not a BIOS problem. I wasn't complaining about the BIOS reverting to defaults.

Yup, I always double-check BIOS options after a BIOS update, something almost always gets reset to a default in the process, and it's usually something irritating like disabling fan management or switching to IDE mode.

Me too. The point is, I shouldn't have to be watching the reboot process like a hawk for fear that it is going to break my Windows installation. It should be, "Oh, the computer already rebooted. I'll just reboot again and see what is new in the BIOS and make sure all the settings are correct." Instead it is "Oh shit, my computer is completely broken because Windows can't handle a single boot with one change in the BIOS and it won't work even if I change the setting back."

 

[Ketchup]

... I've been updating BIOS for 25 years?....

I am a little confused by this comment. You have been updating BIOSes for 25 years, and you are just now noticing that you can't change drive communication modes without Windows caring?

 

[mikeymikec]

I have only switched IDE/AHCI mode a handful of times with an existing Windows installation. When using built-in drivers I haven't had a problem with the switch before. I think if I had a situation where third party drivers were installed, I would try to remove them first (ensuring that msahci/pciide were enabled already), then try to do the switch.